New TPE Train Discussion

[Harbornite]

Chiltern might like them, or perhaps Arriva Trains Wales for the WAG Express and North Wales Coast.

Possibly, although those coaches were refurbed quite recently. Perhaps DRS could replace their mark 2 fleet with them.

 

[Spartacus]

The only replacing I see in the future with the TPE LHCS, is that the class 68 could be replaced by a Hybrid class 88 locomotive. Having the LHCS would allow TPE flexibility in a similar way to having the class 802 hybrid trains will enable flexibility.

Took the words out of my mouth!

 

[CosherB]

The only replacing I see in the future with the TPE LHCS, is that the class 68 could be replaced by a Hybrid class 88 locomotive. Having the LHCS would allow TPE flexibility in a similar way to having the class 802 hybrid trains will enable flexibility.

For the umpteenth time, the Class 88 is NOT a bi-mode loco. Yes, it has a diesel engine, but it's only rated at 950 bhp, therefore is a "last mile" diesel only. It'll be utterly useless pulling 5 CAF carriages :roll:

 

[47802]

For the umpteenth time, the Class 88 is NOT a bi-mode loco. Yes, it has a diesel engine, but it's only rated at 950 bhp, therefore is a "last mile" diesel only. It'll be utterly useless pulling 5 CAF carriages :roll:

Indeed so, your also likely need a 125mph version for it to take over Edinburgh services already substancially discussed, and given how far down the line it is I don't think its even really worth discussing it more at this point.

 

[RobShipway]

For the umpteenth time, the Class 88 is NOT a bi-mode loco. Yes, it has a diesel engine, but it's only rated at 950 bhp, therefore is a "last mile" diesel only. It'll be utterly useless pulling 5 CAF carriages :roll:

I am not saying that it is correct, but I suggest that you read the words from Wikipedia for class 88 which are below:

The Class 88 is part of Vossloh's Euro Dual family. This is a range of dual mode locomotives that are fitted both with a pantograph, to collect electricity from overhead wires, and a Caterpillar diesel engine. The UK version will be able to run either on electrified lines using the pantograph, which will be the UK's standard OHLE current at 25kV AC, or away from electrified lines with the Caterpillar C27 950 hp (710 kW) engine. Dual mode locomotives have been mooted for freight use in the UK, using the "Last Mile" principle, where a primarily electric locomotive is fitted with a small diesel engine to allow trains to be delivered to unelectrified freight sidings.[4] However, the Class 88 is intended as a fully dual mode locomotive, with the diesel engine powerful enough to haul a train on its own, although with only 20% of the power in electric mode.[5] The Class 88s will be the first dual mode locomotives in the UK to use the 25kV AC electrification, as the only other electro-diesel locomotives to have entered service on the British network were the Class 73 and Class 74, which operated in the Southern Region using third rail electrification.[6]

Notice that it states as follows:

However, the Class 88 is intended as a fully dual mode locomotive, with the diesel engine powerful enough to haul a train on its own, although with only 20% of the power in electric mode.

The engine is not last mile, it is designed to haul a train in its own right. IO have also found the same comment on the Vossloh Espana website for the class 88. Yes, it is not strictly a Hybrid in the same way as the class 80x trains, but it is Electro-diesel and setup to power a train in both modes.

 

[Domh245]

However, the Class 88 is intended as a fully dual mode locomotive, with the diesel engine powerful enough to haul a train on its own, although with only 20% of the power in electric mode.

Sure, but if the train has only got 20% of the power that it normally has, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to send it out onto the network. With 20% of the power, it is limited to 20% of the speed - 20mph, which isn't of any use. (P=F*V and whatnot)

Edit: As pointed out, that is only valid assuming that the force is constant. In practice, other forces come into effect that change this, but the point still stands, it won't be of any use on a mainline in this mode in normal service.

The engine is not last mile, it is designed to haul a train in its own right. IO have also found the same comment on the Vossloh Espana website for the class 88. Yes, it is not strictly a Hybrid in the same way as the class 80x trains, but it is Electro-diesel and setup to power a train in both modes.

It is designed to haul a train in it's own right, but not at normal speeds. You might say that it is designed to haul a train for the last mile on unelectrified sidings...

 

[SeanG]

Chiltern might like them.

Chiltern might like a lot of TPE's stock, they have form in this

 

[Mugby]

Will the loco hauled stock be top and tailed or will they include DVTs?

 

[Whistler40145]

I presume there'll be a DVT in the consist.

 

[Bungle965]

Will the loco hauled stock be top and tailed or will they include DVTs?

Top and Tail from the start of operation I believe before going onto DVT`s
Sam

 

[Bevan Price]

Sure, but if the train has only got 20% of the power that it normally has, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to send it out onto the network. With 20% of the power, it is limited to 20% of the speed - 20mph, which isn't of any use. (P=F*V and whatnot)

.

It will be marginally less powerful than a single Class 20, so the acceleration will be painfully slow, but it will be capable of much more than 20 mph..

 

[WatcherZero]

Its not a linear equation of power = speed. You need more power to overcome inital friction and get started but then you have to apply ever increasing amounts of effort for every extra mph achieved.

20% of the power of a 100mph train doesnt mean 20mph. It would likely mean maxing out at 80mph but taking a hell of a lot longer to get there hauling the same load. However a passenger train would be far lighter than a freight load.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Top and Tail from the start of operation I believe before going onto DVT`s
Sam

Strictly speaking, DVT is not accurate. The new vehicles will have passenger accommodation too, so will be more akin to the DBSOs in use in Cumbria. Though a brake compartment won't be required so DTSO or DTFO would likely be the description.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It will be marginally less powerful than a single Class 20, so the acceleration will be painfully slow, but it will be capable of much more than 20 mph..

I think that the Class 08 shunter has a maximum tractive effort of 35,000lbf with a top speed range between 15 to 20mph, if I can add this for purposes of comparison.

 

[D365]

Can we just agree that it's a last mile diesel engine and leave it at that?!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Please. We don't send single engined 185's over the hills due to the lack of power and the delays and disruption it would cause, not to mention the slim possibility of that final engine giving up.

If a singled engine 185 can't do it, there's no chance a 88 will do it.

 

[Spartacus]

If the wires are down or the only electrified line's blocked Class 20 power's infinitely better than only having electric! Diversions via Kirkgate or Castleford would be simple as pie, as would be diesel hauled through affected sections (drop the pan and diesel haul under obstructions or trips for example). Ok, diverting via Todmorden might be a little bit more of a challenge, but they'd be no slower than the locals or even semi-fasts which diversions via there invariably get stuck behind.

 

[Bungle965]

Strictly speaking, DVT is not accurate. The new vehicles will have passenger accommodation too, so will be more akin to the DBSOs in use in Cumbria. Though a brake compartment won't be required so DTSO or DTFO would likely be the description.

Yes that is true. Apologies.
Sam

 

[apk55]

The speed a class 88 could reach on diesel with a passenger train I would expect to be in the range 40mph (uphill) and 60mph on the level.

Do not forget

Train resistance increases with speed (mainly due to air resistance) so that for example going at half the speed means less than half the energy is required for traction say 35-40% travelling at 50mph instead of 100mph.

Most of the time the loco would be running on part power. Taking Chilton as an example a class 67 (2.2MW) can cruse at 100mph even up modest hills and would running on part power most of the time. Therefore if 2MW is required to run at 100 MPH then 900KW could probably achieve more than 50MPH.

However some of the engine output may be may be used for ETH purposes. For a short distance this could be turned off when fast running is required and rely on thermal inertia but for longer runs this could sap the engine power considerably.

 

[po8crg]

Strictly speaking, DVT is not accurate. The new vehicles will have passenger accommodation too, so will be more akin to the DBSOs in use in Cumbria. Though a brake compartment won't be required so DTSO or DTFO would likely be the description.

IIRC, the "T" in LHCS designations is "Tourist" (unlike MU designations where it's "Trailer"), so it would be DTSO or DFO.

TSO is 2+2 seating, where SO is 2+1 (yes, second-class 2+1, back in the days of the three class railway).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strictly speaking, DVT is not accurate. The new vehicles will have passenger accommodation too, so will be more akin to the DBSOs in use in Cumbria. Though a brake compartment won't be required so DTSO or DTFO would likely be the description.

Might well need a guard's office - he won't be able to usefully use the locomotive cab as it is isolated from the train.

 

[CosherB]

I am not saying that it is correct, but I suggest that you read the words from Wikipedia for class 88 which are below.

I prefer to make up my own mind than rely on Wikipedia or corporate blurb to form an opinion. I still contend that 950 bhp is of little use for normal running on the mainline.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I prefer to make up my own mind than rely on Wikipedia or corporate blurb to form an opinion. I still contend that 950 bhp is of little use for normal running on the mainline.

realistically a 1000hp diesel in electro diesel loco is goingto be for self resuce / last mile , especially when the the electric capacity is goingto be equivalent to 'type 4 ' or 'type 5' ...

at least 2500hp on either would be a more realistic option for true go anywhere electro-diesel

 

[talltim]

I think it is quite possible we will see more Bi-Mode trains or Loco Hauled Diesels to replace the more major routes currently worked by Second Gen DMU's to allow Second Gen DMU's to replace 1st gen DMU's. There will also be Scotrail's Clapped out HST's but that's some way off and getting off the point.

What routes are run by 1st gen DMUs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think he means 2nd and 3rd generation respectively.

 

[Mordac]

What routes are run by 1st gen DMUs?

Princes Risborough to Aylesbury?

 

[Ships]

The rails are still there but they don't connect to anything if that makes sense. Have a nose next time you are there.

Loco road E between 6 and 7 has had its S&C removed recently however the other holding roads are still connected AFAIK (unless its been done very recently).

 

[Spartacus]

I'd have thought the diesel would be geared for at least 60mph, with good torque low down to ensure it can get a heavy train going again, plus, while the engine power is similar to a Class 20's, I'd expect power at the rail to be higher given 60 years of progress in between.

 

[Domh245]

I'd have thought the diesel would be geared for at least 60mph, with good torque low down to ensure it can get a heavy train going again, plus, while the engine power is similar to a Class 20's, I'd expect power at the rail to be higher given 60 years of progress in between.

The diesel engine just powers an alternator that feeds into the same inverters that power the motors as per running under AC. Similar to the 68, just with a lot less power

 

[snowball]

Sure, but if the train has only got 20% of the power that it normally has, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to send it out onto the network. With 20% of the power, it is limited to 20% of the speed - 20mph, which isn't of any use. (P=F*V and whatnot)

Yes but F changes with V. Air resistance is roughly proportional to the square of the speed.