New TPE Train Discussion

[55z]

Nothing concrete yet in all this speculation. Well for some concrete. TPEXP are due to make an announcement on 1st April, 2016 re new trains. They are in discussion with 3 manufacturers to build the new trains and so cannot comment on any which trains they are to order until they have signed. The new CEO has been told by the legal boffins not to say anything about any new trains at the present time.

 

[northwichcat]

TPEXP are due to make an announcement on 1st April, 2016 re new trains.

So at 12:01am the announcement will be that the new trains will be D-Trains. Then at 12.01pm the new trains will actually be....

 

[Viscount702]

How many diagrams are required for CLE LDS and Hull. Is 29 185s enough for these bearing in mind that it has now been said that all if not most Sheffield trains will be 6 cars

 

[Class 170101]

How many diagrams are required for CLE LDS and Hull. Is 29 185s enough for these bearing in mind that it has now been said that all if not most Sheffield trains will be 6 cars

Probably only between Sheffield and Manchester (maybe Airport) and maybe as far as Doncaster but I cannot see 6 cars needing to operate to Cleethorpes.

 

[northwichcat]

How many diagrams are required for CLE LDS and Hull. Is 29 185s enough for these bearing in mind that it has now been said that all if not most Sheffield trains will be 6 cars

Hull is 5 diagrams currently and they'll probably need 8 class 185 diagrams in total for North TPE by the time they'll be an additional hourly Manchester-Leeds only using 185s.

So if all the North TPE c.185 services will all be 3 car that would leave around 18 units for South TPE after maintenance and spares are allowed for.

 

[deltic08]

Dave, don't ever use a bus, you'll have an aneurism if you see what's going off with floors on buses !

But not for the next 20-40 years unless the condition is familial. Most people don't develop an aneurism until post 60 and even then it is not always fatal. I would say not even 5% of deaths are due to a ruptured aneurism so statistically use as many buses with floors as you like.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So at 12:01am the announcement will be that the new trains will be D-Trains. Then at 12.01pm the new trains will actually be....

Loco-hauled "toastrack" carriages to combat overcrowding?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

TPEXP are due to make an announcement on 1st April, 2016 re new trains.

Which will give the fantasists with personal preferences free rein and plenty of time to indulge themselves for some weeks to come on this thread until that date actually arrives....

The relevance of that particular date is not altogether lost on me.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

So the suggestion is that they're going to order Hitachi AT300s on the back of the Great Western order.

Which presumably means a build in Italy. That will go down *very* well in the North East...

 

[D365]

The relevance of that particular date is not altogether lost on me.

What, that the rolling stock procurement exercise enacted by First was in fact a complete bluff, and that the plan all along was for Class 442/373/230 locomotive haulage? (delete as appropriate )

 

[gimmea50anyday]

An internal e-mail from my manager suggests 5 car HST's will be used on LIV-EDB ECML work, however they also put 5 or 10 car which would preclude HST's as they lack any oomph when loaded higher than 8, plus with MEN also suggesting cascaded HST's this does lead to a possibility TPE will receive FGW's 180's when IEP comes on stream. This over the ridiculously oversubscribed HST cascade freed up by the late running IEP electrification program is of course pure speculation. We can read into stuff and try and guess but info coming out of the franchise is certainly lacking at the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

An internal e-mail from my manager suggests 5 car HST's will be used on LIV-EDB ECML work, however they also put 5 or 10 car which would preclude HST's as they lack any oomph when loaded higher than 8, plus with MEN also suggesting cascaded HST's this does lead to a possibility TPE will receive FGW's 180's when IEP comes on stream. This over the ridiculously oversubscribed HST cascade freed up by the late running IEP electrification program is of course pure speculation. We can read into stuff and try and guess but info coming out of the franchise is certainly lacking at the moment.

It appears Charlotte Cox who wrote the MEN article was at the same TfGM presentation which has been posted on here and is known for getting her facts wrong and has apparently annoyed senior people at TPE by somehow coming up with a 125mph cast-off story out of thin air.

The 44 new 125mph capable trains which TPE are acquiring and hoping to have the first batch in service by December 2017 will all be 5 car formations.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

IF, and thats a big IF, the plan is to run 2x5car on some services, there will be a lot of platform lengthening to add to the route, unless some sort of selective door operation is used. HUD=9, CLS=5 at a pinch both spring to mind. Siemens were apparently not happy with UDB being used on 185's in passenger service.

An internal communication does indeed state that £7million will be spent on platform lengthenings. So knowing NR's costings that will be about 4 platforms or 2 stations! (Chester-le-Street and Yarm?...)

 

[swt_passenger]

...this does lead to a possibility TPE will receive FGW's 180's when IEP comes on stream.

And yet it is stated unambiguously in the GW franchise agreement that the 180s are going to be leased by GC from Dec 2016, with 4 sets temporarily sub leased back until their IEP replacements arrive.

It is rather surprising that they keep cropping up in other cascade theories.

 

[northwichcat]

IF, and thats a big IF, the plan is to run 2x5car on some services, there will be a lot of platform lengthening to add to the route, unless some sort of selective door operation is used. HUD=9, CLS=5 at a pinch both spring to mind. Siemens were apparently not happy with UDB being used on 185's in passenger service.

I doubt they'll be any regular 10 car workings but maybe there might some when special events are on such as the Edinburgh Festival.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And yet it is stated unambiguously in the GW franchise agreement that the 180s are going to be leased by GC from Dec 2016, with 4 sets temporarily sub leased back until their IEP replacements arrive.

It is rather surprising that they keep cropping up in other cascade theories.

I don't think the Hull Trains have been secured by a future operator but then they are going to with HT for a few years yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It appears Charlotte Cox who wrote the MEN article was at the same TfGM presentation which has been posted on here and is known for getting her facts wrong and has apparently annoyed senior people at TPE by somehow coming up with a 125mph cast-off story out of thin air.

No chance of a retraction, I suppose?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

No chance of a retraction, I suppose?

*groans....*

 

[pjm0512]

The pictures of the blandish interior is very similar to the renders of the 800/1/2s, which I think strengthens the chances of AT300s.

 

[swt_passenger]

The pictures of the blandish interior is very similar to the renders of the 800/1/2s, which I think strengthens the chances of AT300s.

The interior shots in the TPE presentation are undoubtedly based on Desiro interiors.

 

[northwichcat]

The interior shots in the TPE presentation are undoubtedly based on Desiro interiors.

Agreed. However, I imagine TPE will want to make the interiors look as much like the ones on their new trains as much as possible.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Having agreements and a working reputation and experience with siemens already would put siemens in a competetive advantage. Being able to work in multiple with the existing 185 fleet for service recovery or rescue purposes would also be an advantage although not a necessity, however Siemens dont have hybrid experience that hitachi do. Having said that, theres no reason why Siemens couldnt employ a hitachi traction package, just as Bombardier use an Alsthom traction package in the voyagers.

 

[northwichcat]

Being able to work in multiple with the existing 185 fleet for service recovery or rescue purposes would also be an advantage although not a necessity

Siemens haven't exactly got a reputation of coming up with new designs which are compatible with their old designs.

The Turbostars are compatible with Sprinters, the 323s are compatible with 31xs, while an Alstom Pendolino can rescue a failed Bombardier Voyager (as you suggested) so a different manufacturer doesn't automatically mean the trains can't be compatible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Turbostars are compatible with Sprinters, the 323s are compatible with 31xs, while an Alstom Pendolino can rescue a failed Bombardier Voyager (as you suggested) so a different manufacturer doesn't automatically mean the trains can't be compatible.

And vice versa, which is in many ways all the more impressive!

 

[sprinterguy]

An internal e-mail from my manager suggests 5 car HST's will be used on LIV-EDB ECML work, however they also put 5 or 10 car which would preclude HST's as they lack any oomph when loaded higher than 8, plus with MEN also suggesting cascaded HST's this does lead to a possibility TPE will receive FGW's 180's when IEP comes on stream.

The Edinburgh services aren't due to start until December 2019, at which point TPEs' whole new fleet of trains will be in place. Transpennine don't need HSTs during the timescales which they will become available, and as has also now been mentioned the FGW 180s are already earmarked for use by Grand Central.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think the Hull Trains have been secured by a future operator but then they are going to with HT for a few years yet.

I thought GC were snaffaling them up?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought GC were snaffaling them up?

They have secured 5 additional 180s to go with the 5 they already have: https://www.grandcentralrail.com/about-us/news-press/£78m-investments-are-just-the-ticket/ That means there are 4 x 180s they haven't secured.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Siemens haven't exactly got a reputation of coming up with new designs which are compatible with their old designs.

is that just down to where some have got the electrical block on the top of the coupling and others have got it on the underneath of the coupling?

 

[IanXC]

I suppose the other entanglement is that First Groups AT300 contract was 29 for GWR plus options on 30 more. Since when it seems Hull Trains have taken 5, leaving 25 options - is 32 suitably close to continue in a way that 44 isnt? Is that a reason for the 12 WCML units to be ordered from elsewhere?

 

[Brian Aylott]

They have secured 5 additional 180s to go with the 5 they already have: https://www.grandcentralrail.com/about-us/news-press/£78m-investments-are-just-the-ticket/ That means there are 4 x 180s they haven't secured.

Old news - that is from a 2014 press release
They lease these extra 5 but they are sub-leased back to GWR at present

The 4 Hull trains ones are retained until they get bi-modes
Brian

 

[swt_passenger]

Old news - that is from a 2014 press release
They lease these extra 5 but they are sub-leased back to GWR at present

The GW franchise agreement gives the date of 12/2016 for the current lease end date, after which four of them will be subleased back to GW. Your explanation is correct but early...