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New stations for Leeds

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Spod

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Agreed, the passenger numbers are dominated by commuters. However, since one of the new stations being built for commuters purports to be the station for the airport, it is relevant to discuss the relative merits of that aspect of the plan.
In terms of importance to the airport, the lack of quick and easy public transport links is holding it back a bit, and of course they have their own environmental targets to meet. The 747 bus from Leeds has a lot of congested roads to negotiate, and a shorter shuttle bus route from a nearby station does make sense. Diverting the 747 to Apperley Bridge sounds like a quick win, but given that Apperley Bridge won't be allowed to market itself as the station for LBA, few flyers may discover the option. Also, it's an extra change for most.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Much like how the White Rose Centre would never get built if it hadn't already been, if you were planning an airport for the Leeds City Region you probably wouldn't build it at Yeadon.
 

Deerfold

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In terms of importance to the airport, the lack of quick and easy public transport links is holding it back a bit, and of course they have their own environmental targets to meet. The 747 bus from Leeds has a lot of congested roads to negotiate, and a shorter shuttle bus route from a nearby station does make sense. Diverting the 747 to Apperley Bridge sounds like a quick win, but given that Apperley Bridge won't be allowed to market itself as the station for LBA, few flyers may discover the option. Also, it's an extra change for most.

That'd be the 757 from Leeds.

Why would Apperley Bridge not be allowed to be marketed as for the airport?
Diverting the 747 may provide a shorter bus journey but there's only one an hour - and there's only 2 trains an hour compared with the current 757 link every 20 minutes (and every 30 from the airport until late). There are 4 buses from the airport on route 757 later than the last current southbound train from Apperley Bridge - and in summer they run all night.
 

tbtc

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This thread got very bogged down on airport access. I can't believe this issue forms more than 1% of transport needs in the Leeds area.

Agreed - the "New Stations For Leeds" thread seems to have gone off at a tangent to discuss the massive populations of North Yorkshire villages like Flaxby and Boroughbridge...

...plus arguing over whether a road from Liverpool to York is the road that you'd actually take from Liverpool to York...

...all of which misses the point that the three proposed stations around Leeds are a great idea.

You've got a good geographic spread ("Airport" in the north west, "White Rose" in the south west, "Thorpe Park" in the east) - without building lots of new lines (sure, there are other areas where stations could be built, but not feasible on existing lines and there's no budget for the crayons you'd need to draw lots of new lines around Leeds).

I'm glad that the "Airport" station is partly being described as a P&R for the area to the north of there (Harrogate etc) - I don't think that the Airport is big enough to warrant a separate branch (given the number of flights, the type of flights, the big gaps between flights - e.g. you can go over an hour between flights http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/arrivals-departures) and the fact that any Leeds - Airport service is taking up a path that a Leeds - Harrogate service could use.

I agree with 61653 HTAFC regarding the unsuitability of Yeadon for the Airport (too high up, too far away from fast roads, too reliant upon the dodgy A65, the wrong side of the Leeds-Bradford conurbation for most of the population of Yorkshire), but we are stuck with it now.

White Rose should have been built with a railway station in the first place - it opened seven years after Meadowhall, so it's not like we can blame the unenlightened planners of the 1970s.

Whilst we discuss the merits of various quaint villages, Thorpe Park is the future - it's got all of the features of a decent sized town - lots of businesses - great site for a Park & Ride by the Motorway - retail parks etc.

The only site I'd suggest for a station on an existing line would be Stourton (by the Arla Dairies site), where the Castleford line passes the M1/ M621 - but we may need more seats on existing services (given the capacity constraint at platform seventeen).
 

Deerfold

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White Rose should have been built with a railway station in the first place - it opened seven years after Meadowhall, so it's not like we can blame the unenlightened planners of the 1970s.

It didn't get a station for the same reasons it'd be hard for it to get one now - line capacity.

A station there was mentioned in 2012 when the shopping centre planned to expand.

It was examined in 2014 when it was reported:

http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFile...Stations Study Report v1.0 FINAL Redacted.pdf
http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFiles/WYMetro/Content/news/projects/projectdetails/New%20Stations%20Study%20Report%20v1.0%20FINAL%20Redacted.pdf said:
The site at the White Rose Centre was felt to be unsuitable due to the changes which would be needed to the track and signalling equipment. The site is located on a curve with a high linespeed and a high degree of cant. Constructing a station at this location would be costly. The site is also relatively close to Leeds City Centre which means that the impact of stopping services in this area would be detrimental to journey times for existing passengers and line capacity is already constrained. Morley and Cottingley stations are both less than 1.5km either side of the White Rose Centre.

If we're looking at the other line then there's going to quite a walk.
 

lejog

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The only site I'd suggest for a station on an existing line would be Stourton (by the Arla Dairies site), where the Castleford line passes the M1/ M621 - but we may need more seats on existing services (given the capacity constraint at platform seventeen).

That would be Stourton that in the 2014 report just linked to by Deerfold had an estimated demand of 30,000 passengers a year, scored 6.8 out of 30 in the evaluation and came 60th out of 61. Err right.

Mind you the White Rose Centre did'nt manage to do much better, coming 57th. Thorpe Park came 8th, an Airport station wasn't even considered, although Arthington Parkway came 59th.

The trouble is few of the high scoring locations were in Leeds, where the budget is to be spent.
 
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Grumpy

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I'm glad that the "Airport" station is partly being described as a P&R for the area to the north of there (Harrogate etc)

There is no way that anyone is going to make a convoluted drive from Harrogate to the proposed airport station in order to park and catch a train into Leeds. Much simpler and quicker to drive straight into Leeds.

The best investment for Harrogate would be to shut the present Pannal station and build a replacement a couple of hundred yards east with direct access from the A61. Provide at least 600 car parking spaces. Ideal for commuters to Leeds/Bradford from the Harrogate area who currently have to drive all the way due to lack of parking.
 

Grumpy

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Agreed
The only site I'd suggest for a station on an existing line would be Stourton (by the Arla Dairies site), where the Castleford line passes the M1/ M621 - but we may need more seats on existing services (given the capacity constraint at platform seventeen).

I think you're on the right lines here. Should have been done years ago. However they have woken up to the advantages of bus based park and ride and I read this is now proposed for Stourton. At some stage they need to up the frequency to Pontefract to 30 minute intervals which would make better use of the potential for Glasshoughton as a rail park and ride (i.e. motorists from the A1/M62 south/east)
 

Deerfold

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I think you're on the right lines here. Should have been done years ago. However they have woken up to the advantages of bus based park and ride and I read this is now proposed for Stourton.

Are you suggesting that the analysis in 2014 that placed it 60th of 61 stations was incorrect?

At some stage they need to up the frequency to Pontefract to 30 minute intervals which would make better use of the potential for Glasshoughton as a rail park and ride (i.e. motorists from the A1/M62 south/east)

That would probably much improve the usefulness of the line (and numbers using it). However, presumably it'll be behind the lines that already regularly have full and standing trains on them.
 
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Bantamzen

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Just thinking about a White Rose station, would there really be enough traffic to justify it? Leeds is marketing itself as a prime retail centre, and the vast majority of shoppers passing through the Leeds area would be more likely to head to the centre rather than an out of town development. And that's before you consider the difficulties of having another stop on a line already congested and due to see proper IC services again in the next couple of years. I honestly don't think there is a strong enough case there, especially given the horrific road congestion in the area.
 

Mr Mean

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White rose is more than just shops, there is a large office park and multiple light industrial businesses in the vicinity. There is also a lot of low use farm land nearby over the other side of the railway that I would expect to be built on in the coming years.

I've no idea what the station plans look like but it would be great if they could cut a straight line from Morley to cottingley with white rose on the current track and express trains been able to maintain speed through the tunnel and to Leeds on the new straight track rather than having to slow for the curve.
 

bluenoxid

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No, it is very relevant. However, the station is quite limited due to platform lengths.
 

Grumpy

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Are you suggesting that the analysis in 2014 that placed it 60th of 61 stations was incorrect?

Absolutely. My recollection is that the methodology for assessing likely usage of the new stations in that report was solely based on the number of residents living nearby and likely train frequencies. So sites like Stourton, with very few close residents and where the majority of likely passengers would have come from further away, were credited with derisory projections of usage and accordingly ranked down. In Stourton's case the thousands of motorists/day travelling past the site into the Leeds congestion were ignored. As were the potential journeys of 1000's of people working in the vicinity. The case for White Rose was similarly flawed.

That said I think a bus Park and Ride from Stourton will be a better solution, being easier, quicker and cheaper to implement.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Just thinking about a White Rose station, would there really be enough traffic to justify it? Leeds is marketing itself as a prime retail centre, and the vast majority of shoppers passing through the Leeds area would be more likely to head to the centre rather than an out of town development. And that's before you consider the difficulties of having another stop on a line already congested and due to see proper IC services again in the next couple of years. I honestly don't think there is a strong enough case there, especially given the horrific road congestion in the area.

White rose is more than just shops, there is a large office park and multiple light industrial businesses in the vicinity. There is also a lot of low use farm land nearby over the other side of the railway that I would expect to be built on in the coming years.

I've no idea what the station plans look like but it would be great if they could cut a straight line from Morley to cottingley with white rose on the current track and express trains been able to maintain speed through the tunnel and to Leeds on the new straight track rather than having to slow for the curve.

When WRC was built, Leeds City Centre was dying on its a**e. It has since become one of the major shopping destinations outside of London with many big-ticket retailers and modern, accessible malls. White Rose is stuck in the 1990s and as I've said several times on this thread, if it didn't exist nobody would consider building it now.

The idea of a new alignment for fast services is unrealistic, and would either need a sharper curve (if staying the same side of the A650) or would have to cross the A650 on a viaduct and then join the Wakefield line which is almost as congested as the Huddersfield line.

No, it is very relevant. However, the station is quite limited due to platform lengths.

On the contrary, it has been extended to 3x23m in the last few years, and there doesn't appear to be any major obstacles to further extensions if they were required. I had thought that the lightweight timber construction might not be up to current standards but extensions were signed off- this hopefully will make Deighton and Slaithwaite extensions cheaper, as I'd assumed they might've needed completely rebuilding.
 

bluenoxid

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There is a bit of me wondering if Leeds Council are looking to develop the hub and spoke model using these new railway stations to feed developments and local bus networks.

Anyone with any passing observation of buses in Leeds cannot fail to notice the buses for Capita, which I understand are heading towards the office park next to WRC.
 

Bantamzen

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There is a bit of me wondering if Leeds Council are looking to develop the hub and spoke model using these new railway stations to feed developments and local bus networks.

Anyone with any passing observation of buses in Leeds cannot fail to notice the buses for Capita, which I understand are heading towards the office park next to WRC.

I pass a few each morning and evening, but is there really enough traffic from them to strengthen a business case for a WRC station. I suspect the number would be far too low to help, how often do these buses run?
 

lejog

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Absolutely. My recollection is that the methodology for assessing likely usage of the new stations in that report was solely based on the number of residents living nearby and likely train frequencies. So sites like Stourton, with very few close residents and where the majority of likely passengers would have come from further away, were credited with derisory projections of usage and accordingly ranked down. In Stourton's case the thousands of motorists/day travelling past the site into the Leeds congestion were ignored. As were the potential journeys of 1000's of people working in the vicinity. The case for White Rose was similarly flawed.

That said I think a bus Park and Ride from Stourton will be a better solution, being easier, quicker and cheaper to implement.

Your recollection is not correct. The demand calculations factored in an allowance for additional numbers for car park usage, where it would be possible to build one. Lack of available land for a station was identified as a major issue at Stourton, so where would they be able to build a station car park for all these people driving by?

Anyway forecast demand only provided 10 marks out of a total of 30, so Stourton also scored very poorly on constructional and operational feasibility.
 
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tbtc

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That would be Stourton that in the 2014 report just linked to by Deerfold had an estimated demand of 30,000 passengers a year, scored 6.8 out of 30 in the evaluation and came 60th out of 61. Err right.

Mind you the White Rose Centre did'nt manage to do much better, coming 57th. Thorpe Park came 8th, an Airport station wasn't even considered, although Arthington Parkway came 59th.

The trouble is few of the high scoring locations were in Leeds, where the budget is to be spent.

You've answered your own question - this is Leeds City Council announcing how to spend part of the £270m budget for transport improvements in Leeds.

So the long list of stations you refer to includes a lot that are the wrong side of York (e.g. Strensall), beyond Halifax (e.g. Cornholme), on the outskirts of Barnsley (e.g. Haigh) or past Keighley (e.g. Crosshills).

If we take the view that this Leeds money needs to be spent in Leeds, then I think that the three they are proposing seem decent bets. Maybe it'd be nice to have stations at Elland/ Manningham etc, but that's not what this is about.

And, yes, the same Stourton that was planned to be a big P&R when the tram was going to run there.

There is no way that anyone is going to make a convoluted drive from Harrogate to the proposed airport station in order to park and catch a train into Leeds. Much simpler and quicker to drive straight into Leeds.

The best investment for Harrogate would be to shut the present Pannal station and build a replacement a couple of hundred yards east with direct access from the A61. Provide at least 600 car parking spaces. Ideal for commuters to Leeds/Bradford from the Harrogate area who currently have to drive all the way due to lack of parking.

Simple and quick to drive into Leeds (from Harrogate)? Maybe you know some good shortcuts and free places to park in the city? Fair enough.

But, to echo what I've said to lejog above, if this is Leeds money to spend in Leeds then a station in suburban Harrogate isn't going to be on the agenda.

A "Cookridge" station also has the benefit of Airport links, which Pannal wouldn't provide. Plus you may have space to provide parking to attract people from Otley etc (which current constraints at Horsforth don't permit).

I think you're on the right lines here. Should have been done years ago. However they have woken up to the advantages of bus based park and ride and I read this is now proposed for Stourton. At some stage they need to up the frequency to Pontefract to 30 minute intervals which would make better use of the potential for Glasshoughton as a rail park and ride (i.e. motorists from the A1/M62 south/east)

I'd double the Pontefract service, given the chance - the current "via Castleford" service from Leeds to Wakefield/ Barnsley/ Sheffield is tediously slow and gets overtaken. Cutting it at Castleford would permit Glasshoughton/ Pontefract a second service per hour without inconveniencing many people (just the people of Normanton - but their current service takes half an hour to get to Leeds, when Normanton is only around a dozen miles as the crow flies, so maybe a stop in one of the "semi fast" Sheffield services would be more appropriate for them?).

Just thinking about a White Rose station, would there really be enough traffic to justify it? Leeds is marketing itself as a prime retail centre, and the vast majority of shoppers passing through the Leeds area would be more likely to head to the centre rather than an out of town development. And that's before you consider the difficulties of having another stop on a line already congested and due to see proper IC services again in the next couple of years. I honestly don't think there is a strong enough case there, especially given the horrific road congestion in the area.

If there's space at WRC to permit overtaking then that would be brilliant.

WRC is more than just a shopping centre (as others have pointed out) - there's a bus station with links to much of southern Leeds, there's business parks, there's potential for P&R.

White rose is more than just shops, there is a large office park and multiple light industrial businesses in the vicinity. There is also a lot of low use farm land nearby over the other side of the railway that I would expect to be built on in the coming years.

I've no idea what the station plans look like but it would be great if they could cut a straight line from Morley to cottingley with white rose on the current track and express trains been able to maintain speed through the tunnel and to Leeds on the new straight track rather than having to slow for the curve.

Agreed.

It may cost a fortune, but that curve is a real drag. Maybe with HS3...

There is a bit of me wondering if Leeds Council are looking to develop the hub and spoke model using these new railway stations to feed developments and local bus networks.

Anyone with any passing observation of buses in Leeds cannot fail to notice the buses for Capita, which I understand are heading towards the office park next to WRC.

That makes a lot of sense.
 

Grumpy

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Your recollection is not correct. The demand calculations factored in an allowance for additional numbers for car park usage, where it would be possible to build one. Lack of available land for a station was identified as a major issue at Stourton, so where would they be able to build a station car park for all these people driving by?

.

I believe my recollection is correct. The basic methodology was to assess trips based on the numbers of nearby residents then add a fixed percentage if the station might have had a car park. So low numbers of local residents would have given a low add on for parking. This may be fine for residential stations but inadequate for "destination"/"attractor" or specific Park and Ride stations.
The report writers recognised this and stated "The limitations of this methodology means potential for wider park & ride demand for catchments 3.22. beyond than 1.5km and the potential for trip generation due to the site „attracting‟ trips (rather than „producing‟ trips) are specifically not captured in this high-level assessment. Due to the specific characteristics of Park and Ride sites, detailed bespoke modelling solutions would be required for each individual site."

With regard to land availability, I haven't been past recently but there used to be an inviting plot as identified by TBTC above.
 

Bantamzen

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If there's space at WRC to permit overtaking then that would be brilliant.

WRC is more than just a shopping centre (as others have pointed out) - there's a bus station with links to much of southern Leeds, there's business parks, there's potential for P&R.

But that doesn't answer the question, is there demand especially if you had to look at a realignment / loop option? WRC is generally popular because it has free parking, so it's main customer base is people travelling there by car. Yes there is a bus station which has links to the area around it but not much of that traffic would arrive by train instead. As for the wider area, with a rapidly growing retail area, the city centre surpasses WRC by some distance now, especially with the additional of the Victoria Gate and John Lewis. To this end, a station and passing loop close to York / New York Street, with passenger access across, would likely have far more demand than WRC.

As for Arlington B/C, those buses serving it from Leeds spend quite a bit of time hanging around close to the bus station and can only be seen well populated during the very busy times. I can honestly say I've never seen one outside of the peaks, and not seen enough to convince there are large flows using them (I work close to one of the pick-up points).

A P&R might be an option close to the site, which would be the most likely to attract the most traffic, but access from the M621 would almost certainly have to be through a residential area, or from Dewsbury Road from the M62. And then you would still have the logistical problem of where to locate the halt, whether or not to cull Cottingley and how to install a loop that wouldn't cause the TP fasts more problems than they will already have.

And herein where the problem lies for a rail based P&R around Leeds, the lines seemingly most suitable (Huddersfield - Leeds, York - Leeds) already have large flows of fast services running through, so a loop is an absolute must. But this would put on considerable cost, along with the obvious disruption to services during works. Perhaps a P&R based at Stourton as suggested might be a better option, providing as said enough services could be provided. On the other two routes it would be difficult to shoehorn in more than a couple of trains per hour, which might make it difficult to attract large numbers of users. I think you'd really need at least 4tph to persuade people out of their cars that close to the city centre.
 
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lejog

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I believe my recollection is correct. The basic methodology was to assess trips based on the numbers of nearby residents then add a fixed percentage if the station might have had a car park. So low numbers of local residents would have given a low add on for parking. This may be fine for residential stations but inadequate for "destination"/"attractor" or specific Park and Ride stations.
The report writers recognised this and stated "The limitations of this methodology means potential for wider park & ride demand for catchments 3.22. beyond than 1.5km and the potential for trip generation due to the site „attracting‟ trips (rather than „producing‟ trips) are specifically not captured in this high-level assessment. Due to the specific characteristics of Park and Ride sites, detailed bespoke modelling solutions would be required for each individual site."

I agree, with this post, but your initial post said something very different.

My recollection is that the methodology for assessing likely usage of the new stations in that report was solely based on the number of residents living nearby and likely train frequencies.

How about the very poor marks for constructional and operational feasibility? If there isn't land available for a station, how big could a station car park be?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You've answered your own question - this is Leeds City Council announcing how to spend part of the £270m budget for transport improvements in Leeds.

So the long list of stations you refer to includes a lot that are the wrong side of York (e.g. Strensall), beyond Halifax (e.g. Cornholme), on the outskirts of Barnsley (e.g. Haigh) or past Keighley (e.g. Crosshills).

If we take the view that this Leeds money needs to be spent in Leeds, then I think that the three they are proposing seem decent bets. Maybe it'd be nice to have stations at Elland/ Manningham etc, but that's not what this is about.

And, yes, the same Stourton that was planned to be a big P&R when the tram was going to run there.

Yes, the report covered the WYCA area (which includes the City Of York) plus the line to Skipton.

Yes the same Stourton, but the trolley bus Park and Ride was planned to be south of the M621, about 700m away from the railway line. Presumably this will also be the site of the bus-serviced Park and Ride announced as part of this investment, in preference to a rail station. Just look at a satellite view, the area available north of the M621 for a new rail station and car park is tiny compared with that the other side of the motorway.

FYI, Elland station has already received a diverted budget from this fund, as Network Rail have been unable to commit to completing planned Bradford Interchange to Leeds upgrades by 2021.
 
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quantinghome

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The WRC station may be helped by the emerging plans for the transpennine upgrade. This is the plan to electrify and upgrade Leeds to Manchester via huddersfield within the existing rail boundary by 2022 (HS3 comes later). There will be significant separation of slow and fast trains. Probably not between Morley and Leeds, but Dewsbury comes to mind as a place where loops could be reinstated without too much difficulty and allow a more frequent stopping service including WRC to run along with transpennine express.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The issue with White Rose, again, is not so much that the stoppers will get in the way of TPE fasts - more that by the time a station would be open there won't BE a stopper most of the time. The semi-fasts that will pick up the existing stops will be woefully under-capacity for those loads, let alone another stop. If a turnback could be provided at Morley perhaps a shuttle service could run from Leeds but again that pushes the costs up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The WRC station may be helped by the emerging plans for the transpennine upgrade. This is the plan to electrify and upgrade Leeds to Manchester via huddersfield within the existing rail boundary by 2022 (HS3 comes later). There will be significant separation of slow and fast trains. Probably not between Morley and Leeds, but Dewsbury comes to mind as a place where loops could be reinstated without too much difficulty and allow a more frequent stopping service including WRC to run along with transpennine express.

A westbound fast line at Dewsbury would require the existing eastbound fast line to be realigned. This would mean eastbound non-stopping services would have to dogleg which would have a significant impact on linespeeds. Capacity on the route won't be a "quick fix" and would probably require full 4-tracking between Ravensthorpe and Heaton Lodge- but that's beyond the scope of this thread.
 
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lejog

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The issue with White Rose, again, is not so much that the stoppers will get in the way of TPE fasts - more that by the time a station would be open there won't BE a stopper most of the time. The semi-fasts that will pick up the existing stops will be woefully under-capacity for those loads, let alone another stop. If a turnback could be provided at Morley perhaps a shuttle service could run from Leeds but again that pushes the costs up.

Are you saying that 3 skip-stop services per hour (2 TPE, 1 Northern) will be undercapacity? Even when 6*23m platforms are required by 2019?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Are you saying that 3 skip-stop services per hour (2 TPE, 1 Northern) will be undercapacity? Even when 6*23m platforms are required by 2019?

The Northern service won't serve Huddersfield which is a big pull from the intermediate stations between there and Batley- meaning that the 2 TPE services an hour will have to bear that load. One of those will also be Hull's only direct train towards Manchester and while some of those passengers may switch to faster services at Leeds if the timetable makes it worthwhile, many of them won't. Whilst platforms may be long enough for 6-car 185s TPE will only have 29 of the units so if by some miracle most of the services ARE that long, I'll eat my hat and yours too!
 

deltic08

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First the journey from the station to the terminal would be hairy by bus, now Network Rail are supposed to build a rail line up a (supposed) 1 in 6 average gradient. :?

I suggest you take a walk from the proposed Parkway station site up to the airport. That way you will appreciate that a new road between the two would be hairy particularly in winter.

As Horsforth is further away from the airport than the new station the gradient is much more gentle. The lane from Horsforth station to the airport is nowhere near 1 in 6 average so I can't see how a rail link would be.
 

deltic08

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Also as I pointed out earlier, while budget is available, Network Rail resources aren't - budgets for upgrades to the Calder Valley line planned for five years funded by the same WY+TF have been reassigned because Network Rail can't do the work before the budget expires.

Big difference between building a short new formation that any construction company can build to Network Rail standards and upgrading an existing route that is specialised work.
 

deltic08

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As a kid in the early 70s, I spent a lot of time at Pounds Farm down the lane from Cookridge cricket pitch and on the bridge overlooking the tunnel entrance. Is that where they're suggesting building a station ? I can't imagine it, nor the new roads they'd have to build to the airport. How things change.
I'm sure there must be better solutions, though. How about rebuilding the station at Arthington triangle at the other end of the tunnel. It's further by road to the airport, but a much better place for a station. It would provide Otley with a rail link, too if there were a good link bus service and a decent sized car park.

Reinstate the junction at Arthington and a turnback siding to meet the A658 at Pool-in-Wharfedale with a single platform station and large P&R car park there. Bus shuttle transfer to the airport from here via A658.
 
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