Exactly.
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New stations for Leeds
- Thread starter Saint66
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Exactly.
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RailUK Forums
Its a shame that part of the alignment towards Otley is built over. Had it not been that spur could have been extended to Otley itself, giving strength to any business case.
I like the idea. What do you do with trains when they get to Leeds?
Potential peak hour capacity into Huddersfield rises from the current 4 cars per hour to 12 and into Leeds from 8 cars to 18, which is a very large rise. The DfT are unlikely to be funding platform extensions, for them not to be used at least at times of peak loading.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
The TPE plan is good for Huddersfield to Leeds passengers (and why wouldn't it be? It's a key market for TPE) but not so good for those travelling to/from intermediate stops and between the peaks. Whilst on paper there's an increase in capacity/frequency, those services will essentially be two services rolled into one with only a modest capacity increase in real terms. I may be wrong and I hope I am, but I can see trouble ahead with the current plans for the route...
Ideally, bulldoze half the houses on the former station site at Pool (HS2 has set a precedence in house demolition), continue on former trackbed to Otley bypass, where a new bridge and formation is required, then follow the trackbed to a reinstated junction with the Ilkley-Menston line. This forms a looping line from Leeds to Leeds via Pool (for bus link to airport) Otley, Guiseley and Kirkstall Forge or Harrogate-Bradford direct via Pool (again bus link to airport), Otley, Guiseley, Baildon, Shipley with connection at Shipley out of Skipton-Bradford trains instead of travelling to/from Harrogate via Leeds.
Trains arriving at Leeds would continue to the proposed turnback at Micklefield, or continue to Selby and turnback there or a new spur from Cross Gates to the A64 along the former Wetherby line and turnback there to serve 12,000 homes already being built in East Leeds.
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More than a shame. It is criminal as a lot of lines were closed on data that was fixed to make them look uneconomic. If only we had half the lines close by Beeching in Greater Leeds.
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As much as I would love to see a loop in place, opening up options for Bradford to Otley & Harrogate, to have any chance of that to work both single track sections coming down from Guiseley would have to be re-doubled, not easy with the current infrastructure & OHLE. I suspect cost & demand (at least initially) might scupper that idea before it ever got close to getting off the ground.
I know. Everything to improve rail use and capacity is always an uphill struggle persuading the decision makers, who sadly can be very road biased/rail ignorant, to turn it into concrete and reality.
How long did it take to open Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge (at least 15 years from memory) and now look at the electrification fiasco? How many new stations have been opened under the Governments new stations grant since introduced? Zero.
If the will was there Otley could have had a two mile rail link years ago. The trackbed from Menston is complete apart from a bridge over the old A660 and one over the A65. Instead the car park at Menston station cannot cope with daily commuters from Otley to Leeds and Bradford and overflows into residential streets. What is worse is that visitors cannot visit Otley by rail which affects the local economy. It is a well known fact that people do not like or trust change of mode such as train to bus on a journey so just do not make the journey or go by car if they have a car. The same is true of the cathedral city of Ripon. Visitors are happy to visit rail connected Harrogate but very few of those visitors continue to railless Ripon even though there is a connecting bus every 15 minutes between the peaks.
Three stations have been opened under round 1 of the New Stations Fund.
Round 2 only closed for bids last month although it took too long to commence.
I think I count 11 other railway stations opened in England and Wales since 2012.
I think reconnecting Otley to the rail network would have a more positive effect than some of the parkway stations being mooted elsewhere in the Leeds area. Sadly the cost of reconnecting it and allowing enough services to operate it would be way beyond the budget available for Leeds' improvements, and as you say the will simply isn't there to make a strong case for it. I have family a friends in Otley and they often bemoan a good link with the rest of the county, let alone Leeds. If I had a pound for every time one of them posted "The X84 is late again".......
As for Ripon, reopening the old Harrogate - Northallerton section would open up that part of the world to the commuter flow (there must be a good market, Transdev have spent a lot of money on those rather nice Eclipse Gemini 3s now used on the 36), as well as allowing far more tourist traffic into the area. Now if only someone could think outside the box, and build a case for the Otley loop, Pool for LBA connection & Ripon line reopening as one bigger project maybe, just maybe they could draft a case strong enough to be taken seriously? Oh wait, that's joined up thinking and this is Britain. Silly me....
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Is that something Rail North or Transport for the North could take up? Obviously it would need a fair bit of local funding as it's probably not going to get justified on the basis of projected passenger flows alone, but the element of regenerating the local community and businesses might swing it under the right circumstances?
That said, before we get even further off topic, does anyone think that deserves its own thread, or was there not much more to be said about the three stations actually being built anyway?
One more thing - Deltic08 referred to the Micklefield turnback - but won't that be shelved now the park and ride station will be built at Thorpe Park? Can it be justified on its own without the associated park and ride proposal for Micklefield? It would still presumably require the station to be rebuilt on the edge of Micklefield?
That said, before we get even further off topic, does anyone think that deserves its own thread, or was there not much more to be said about the three stations actually being built anyway?
One more thing - Deltic08 referred to the Micklefield turnback - but won't that be shelved now the park and ride station will be built at Thorpe Park? Can it be justified on its own without the associated park and ride proposal for Micklefield? It would still presumably require the station to be rebuilt on the edge of Micklefield?
Fully opened? Which ones are they?
Yes
Pye Corner opened on 14 December 2014. Cracked through 63k passengers last year.
Newcourt opened on 4th June 2015 with just shy of 60k passengers. Not bad for a railway station that opened two months in.
Lea Bridge opened 15 May 2016
Pye Corner opened on 14 December 2014. Cracked through 63k passengers last year.
Newcourt opened on 4th June 2015 with just shy of 60k passengers. Not bad for a railway station that opened two months in.
Lea Bridge opened 15 May 2016
But Otley is a quick fix operated as a single line with "one engine in steam"
The turnback siding at Horsforth was installed for £7.5m including signalling. A junction off the Ilkley line would be similar. Two under bridges are missing but stone abutments still present, say £3m, two miles of track, £8m and a simple single wooden platform, £2m. £20m in round figures.
Otley could be a "quick" fix if you could start today. However, you are looking at some serious work before a funding bid is submitted including a serious challenge that guided bus or a brand new D2 wouldnt do a better job. You havent detailed operational proposals (do the trains terminate at Menston, Bradford or Leeds) but i dont expect NR to approve a timetable plan that could rip apart the Triangle service if the Otley train loses more than 10 minutes.
So make that £10m. Add on electrification adjustments £2m plus electrification of the branch £?m, full replacement of those under bridges £4m each, two miles of track at a good £8m plus single platform station with at least a small car park at £5.5m (because people are going to be annoyed if you dont bother doing things like plugging in the national grid for the lights and adding access to it).
Someone with a Spons pricing guide might get it down a few million and probably advise that my costs include some serious optimism bias.
Personally, i agree with you. Linking Menston to Otley would be very helpful with dedicated infrastructure. However, it might not necessarily be rail if you want to achieve door to door journeys using public transport considering the location of an Otley station.
So make that £10m. Add on electrification adjustments £2m plus electrification of the branch £?m, full replacement of those under bridges £4m each, two miles of track at a good £8m plus single platform station with at least a small car park at £5.5m (because people are going to be annoyed if you dont bother doing things like plugging in the national grid for the lights and adding access to it).
Someone with a Spons pricing guide might get it down a few million and probably advise that my costs include some serious optimism bias.
Personally, i agree with you. Linking Menston to Otley would be very helpful with dedicated infrastructure. However, it might not necessarily be rail if you want to achieve door to door journeys using public transport considering the location of an Otley station.
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Not many when you consider Ilkley, pop. 13,000, has an annual footfall of 1.3 million.
Can you give a figure for the cost of opening the two single line stations please?
Turning back at Thorpe Park would only serve two stations, Thorpe Park and Crossgates.
No need for any adjustment or addition to OLE. Another case for 319 bimode man running on diesel from Menston to/from Otley. By reinstating as far as the former station site at Pool from both east and west with two simple stations, both could be served by an airport bus and would be close enough to walk between in under two minutes through the development to provide through routes between Harrogate and Bradford in which case Otley-Leeds could be either via Horsforth of Menston with one change at Pool or Menston. Those who did not wish to walk between stations in Pool just use the airport shuttle bus as it would call at both on each circuit. It would all have to be timetabled for the best interchanging.
This is a recommendation between stations in Bradford so why not here.
All three sides of the Arthington triangle and the stub to Pool would be electrified concurrently with Leeds-Harrogate-York electrification at negligible additional cost to this electrification project.
Why do Otley residents use Menston station as a railhead when they could use bus now from Otley? Same old story, commuters prefer train to bus when there is a choice.
Why should an Otley/Pool train lose more time than any other train in the Wharfe and Aire corridors?
Finally, what is a D2?
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Always something to kill a good idea.
Ilkley has 4 trains per hour to and from major population centres on an electrified railway line. Stations take a good 3-5 years to establish. The Business case for Newcourt was looking 500 daily journeys.
Pye Corner has an hourly service. Newcourt has a half hourly service.
Pye Corner was £3.5m and Newcourt was a good £2.2m.
These are fairly basic affairs and costs are rocketing. Inverness Airport is pushing through £5m.
Ploughman
Established Member
When the lines were electrified in 1994 the tunnel areas and the first few couple of 100 metres from Apperley Jcn had the track slewed central to enable clearances to be met.
Not sure if there would be enough room available to redouble the tracks and be able to maintain OHLE clearance to newer standards of clearance.
What were you thinking? There's 6 buses an hour at the moment that seem to be fairly unpopular (though I use them from time to time). Annoyingly they use different stops at Menston rail station and there's a 3bph service, a 2bph service and a 1bph from 3 different operators.
Yes, there will be adjustments. You have to look into the track alignment and accomodate any changes where the new line would leave the existing railway line.
How do you accomodate the road sitting on the old railway alignment?
A Menston turn back will take up track space on a busy line and any delay on the turnaround would cause issues that the line cannot accomodate.
A D2 is a two lane dual carriageway.
Without more experience of Otley, I could see a busway.
Two to Leeds and two to Bradford each hour. Can't say for certain but I doubt a big commuter flow out of Leeds and Bradford to Ilkley. Otley, similar population to Ilkley, should generate 500,000 footfalls annually and therefore be feasible to reinstate to Otley.
Now, you are just finding obstacles for the sake of it. Not sure why you keep mentioning realignment at the new Menston Junction. Why does it need realigning? It is on the same alignment today as it was in 1965 because of an overbridge that is still present adjacent to the old Menston Junction signal box.
Who mentioned anything about a turnback facility at Menston?
You mention dual carriageway road from Otley to where? Leeds, Bradford? That is going to be cheap compared to two miles of reinstated railway line.
If you are referring to the A660 Otley bypass, there is plenty of room each side to move it over a few yards and put a single or even double track railway lline through
No it didn't. It was admittedly simplified but was an adequate response to Deerfold as to why the rankings in the 2014 report were not fully representative-which the report authors acknowledge
At the time of the report there was a big flat undeveloped site with approach access constructed, opposite Arla next to the railway with easy access from the nearby M1. If there is no land available so be it. I did say I favoured the bus-based option
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