New stations for Leeds

[bradders1983]

If Harrogate-Leeds express trains twice an hour run non-stop Horsforth-Leeds then a train will run from Horsforth to Headingley, Burley Park, Leeds following. This train will layover in the turnback siding on the Harrogate side of Horsforth having provided an all stations service from Leeds immediately ahead of the Leeds-Horsforth-Harrogate train.

.

Yes I know all of that, but why are people including yourself talking about this Leeds-Horsforth service even existing when, well, it doesnt, and there are no concrete plans to actually bring one in?

The only thing in concrete is 4 x Leeds-Harrogate services per hour. Nothing else. There will be no need for trains to "turn around" at Horsforth at any point, unless they put on the odd peak extra or if the first/last train of the day starts/stops short at the start/end of a days service.

 

[lejog]

Because deltic08 seems to be talking of out of date "plans", rather than Northern's current contractual obligations. I don't think its fantasy as you previously described it, just not keeping up to date.

Harrogate Chamber again campaigned for the two additional trains from Leeds to Harrogate each hour from December 2017. These were planned as express services of 26 minutes stopping only at Horsforth followed by a Horsforth-Leeds all stations shuttle. This is why the turnback siding was renewed at Horsforth at great cost of £8m when Leeds-Harrogate was resignalled in Autumn 2013. An additional Parkway stop was not even considered.

Mind you, the fact there won't be any Horsforth shuttles negates this argument against the Airport station.

Substituting Parkway for Horsforth of the express services is a no go because the site it too deep below mean ground level for a turnback siding here to run a shuttle without major earth removal of thousands of tons.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

White Rose Centre station......who would use it? If you are in Leeds why would you think it a good idea to hop on a train to go to an out of town shopping centre when most of the stores are available in Leeds? Like wise coming from the other direction why would you get off there when one stop further brings you to Leeds with all its added benefits? (Proper restaurants, real pubs, better choice of shops etc).

WRC is designed for car access so you can take your purchases home without having to lug them onto a train or bus.....whilst the shopping centre undoubtably does well they should name the station White Elephant Halt. The trains now, and will be even with the new stock and services, are busy....so unless they do improve the capacity further this can only make the journeys more depressing than they are now

Agree 100%. As I said on the first page, if WRC didn't already exist there's no way it would get built today. Comparisons with Meadowhall are wide of the mark too, both the shopping centres and the stations: Meadowhall is a much bigger draw for shoppers and the station is an interchange between 2 or arguably 3 rail routes as well as the trams. White Rose station will be on one of two routes, both of which are short on capacity both for paths and seats.
I can't imagine anyone travelling from further than the edges of the WYITA area to access WRC even by car- and by public transport one may as well travel 1-2 stops further for the far better shopping experience which can be had in Leeds itself.

 

[Grumpy]

The money needed to be spent in the Leeds metropolitan area.

So the serious and detailed work done by professionals to ensure new stations be provided throughout West Yorkshire in a sequence that would give best value for the public £ is simply junked in order throw funding at Leeds to squander. Surely the usage of the Leeds station southern entrance should raised a few doubts?
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The buses are using the A65.

Forty minutes should be feasible but it regularly isn't with reliability concerns. The A65 is usually hit badly.

Bus, upto 20 minute wait if they are running. 40 minute ride into town if there are no issues

Train, shuttle bus up to 15 minute wait dependent on integration, 5 ride on the bus, 5-10 on the platform and 20 into town.

Train places you on the correct side of the barriers for ongoing journeys by rail.

Well run an express bus (if there was any justification for one) up the Otley Road and avoid much of the traffic. Then distribute through the city centre and bus station ie the side of the barriers where onward journeys are more likely to be.
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Leeds/Bradford at 630 feet asl

Sea levels must be rising-it used to be 681ft

 

[Spod]

So the serious and detailed work done by professionals to ensure new stations be provided throughout West Yorkshire in a sequence that would give best value for the public £ is simply junked in order throw funding at Leeds to squander. Surely the usage of the Leeds station southern entrance should raised a few doubts?

Put it this way. When the government decided against permitting the Leeds trolleybus scheme to go ahead, after similarly ditching the Leeds supertram scheme about a decade ago, they gave Leeds the money that would have gone on the trolleybus scheme, to spend on transport in Leeds by 2021. So there was never the option of spending it elsewhere in Yorkshire, or anywhere else. They only had to decide what transport schemes would best serve the people and businesses of Leeds, that could be delivered within that budget and within that time period. Leeds City Council can hardly be blamed for accepting the money that was offered and trying to find the best use for it? If the government hadn't offered it, who knows what it would have gone on instead? They looked at all the stations and other schemes in Leeds that could have been built, and came to a decision based on the interests of Leeds, which may differ from the criteria used to rank stations in the earlier assessments. I'm sure if York had got a similar offer, they'd be looking at building Haxby etc. no matter where they ranked in the national scheme of potential stations.

The southern entrance is part of a massive regeneration that will eventually generate enough traffic through there to justify its existence. Even now, its existence brings much of the south bank of the river 5 minutes closer to the station, which is attracting investment into the area. It's one of those "build it and they will come (eventually)" things. Some of the funding was locally raised because of that - it's not as though £20 million of other Network Rail projects were rejected so that Leeds could have its southern entrance.

Yes, it's all (well, mostly) public money in the end, but I don't think it's that ridiculous to spend this slice on transport in Leeds. It's got a few things that needed doing off the ground, should help get more people onto public transport and might be a catalyst for other improvements. If nothing else, it may have solved some of Network Rail's funding issues for these projects in Leeds, leaving more of their budget available for schemes elsewhere.

 

[deltic08]

Sea levels must be rising-it used to be 681ft

Well that makes the case for a Parkway station at this place even worse as the airport is even further and higher from the south entrance to Bramhope tunnel. It is a total waste of £30m.
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Yes I know all of that, but why are people including yourself talking about this Leeds-Horsforth service even existing when, well, it doesnt, and there are no concrete plans to actually bring one in?

The only thing in concrete is 4 x Leeds-Harrogate services per hour. Nothing else. There will be no need for trains to "turn around" at Horsforth at any point, unless they put on the odd peak extra or if the first/last train of the day starts/stops short at the start/end of a days service.

Then why was there infrastructure improvements to accommodate turnback trains at Horsforth and raise the speed over the resited junction from 45 to 60? The plan was for an express service Harrogate-Leeds, with one stop only, twice an hour in under 30 minutes.

Without this, the Kings Cross-Harrogate trains every two hours would not have a path between all stations trains every 15 minutes taking 40 minutes when non-stop trains can now do the journey in 23 minutes.

Nothing is set in concrete. 4x trains a hour has already been deferred six months.

Leeds-Horsforth shuttles have already been operating for a couple of years particularly on Sundays so you are completely wrong on that point.

 

[Deerfold]

Without this, the Kings Cross-Harrogate trains every two hours would not have a path between all stations trains every 15 minutes taking 40 minutes when non-stop trains can now do the journey in 23 minutes.

As I've said above, the VTEC trains will take over from 1 in 8 of the Northern trains when they start in 2019. We do not yet know if the extra two trains an hour will be all stops or express, but Northern's only commitment is to stop them at Harrogate, Horsforth and Leeds.

 

[bradders1983]

Well that makes the case for a Parkway station at this place even worse as the airport is even further and higher from the south entrance to Bramhope tunnel. It is a total waste of £30m.
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Then why was there infrastructure improvements to accommodate turnback trains at Horsforth and raise the speed over the resited junction from 45 to 60? The plan was for an express service Harrogate-Leeds, with one stop only, twice an hour in under 30 minutes.

Without this, the Kings Cross-Harrogate trains every two hours would not have a path between all stations trains every 15 minutes taking 40 minutes when non-stop trains can now do the journey in 23 minutes.

Nothing is set in concrete. 4x trains a hour has already been deferred six months.

Leeds-Horsforth shuttles have already been operating for a couple of years particularly on Sundays so you are completely wrong on that point.

Peak time extras and on Sundays, certainly not part of the normal timetable.

In any case it seems you are working off old info.

 

[lejog]

Then why was there infrastructure improvements to accommodate turnback trains at Horsforth and raise the speed over the resited junction from 45 to 60?

But as you say below nothing is set in concrete. Northern don't have to use the turnback just because Network Rail decided to build it.

The plan was for an express service Harrogate-Leeds, with one stop only, twice an hour in under 30 minutes.

Without this, the Kings Cross-Harrogate trains every two hours would not have a path between all stations trains every 15 minutes taking 40 minutes when non-stop trains can now do the journey in 23 minutes.

Why keep posting about plans that are divorced from what's going to happen? Nothing is set in concrete.

Nothing is set in concrete. 4x trains a hour has already been deferred six months.

Has this been announced? Earlier yesterday you were telling us that there were enough DMUs to run the improved service, so why should it be deferred because of delays in DMU cascades.? :-?

We do have DMUs now as most trains on the Harrogate Loop run as 2x 2-cars. These could be split using 2-cars on Leeds-Harrogate-York and 2-cars Leeds-Horsforth-Leeds even in the peaks

 

[Grumpy]

Put it this way. When the government decided against permitting the Leeds trolleybus scheme to go ahead, after similarly ditching the Leeds supertram scheme about a decade ago, they gave Leeds the money that would have gone on the trolleybus scheme, to spend on transport in Leeds by 2021. So there was never the option of spending it elsewhere in Yorkshire, or anywhere else.

Put it this way. The message to Local Government is now to come up with a couple of massive projects that are never likely to implemented, but it doesn't matter because the Government will give you the money to squander on something that you hadn't wanted. More prudent local authorities elsewhere in Yorkshire must be fuming. Why should Leeds be singled out for extra funding as a reward for failure?

It's ironic that Leeds now seems to be keen on rolling out bus park and ride schemes which have been successful in the likes of York and Durham. Relatively cheap to introduce and operate, Leeds could have had these 20 years ago but instead wasted millions on its vanity projects.

 

[Spod]

Put it this way. The message to Local Government is now to come up with a couple of massive projects that are never likely to implemented, but it doesn't matter because the Government will give you the money to squander on something that you hadn't wanted. More prudent local authorities elsewhere in Yorkshire must be fuming. Why should Leeds be singled out for extra funding as a reward for failure?

It's ironic that Leeds now seems to be keen on rolling out bus park and ride schemes which have been successful in the likes of York and Durham. Relatively cheap to introduce and operate, Leeds could have had these 20 years ago but instead wasted millions on its vanity projects.

Nothing wrong with bus park and ride schemes, but Leeds has a lot more people to move than York and Durham. If there is potential for rail park and ride schemes, why shouldn't they?

I don't think it's fair to say the schemes being proposed weren't wanted or needed. I think Leeds would have preferred to go ahead with the trolleybus, but in its absence there was still a strong case for money to be spent to improve air quality, which is a major issue in Leeds (but not in Durham or York).
Nor were they wrong to push for proper mass transit schemes, I gather Leeds is one of the largest cities in Europe not to have one. It clearly needs one, the trouble is getting agreement from everyone involved on what it should be, and funding from the government once it is agreed.

 

[deltic08]

As I've said above, the VTEC trains will take over from 1 in 8 of the Northern trains when they start in 2019. We do not yet know if the extra two trains an hour will be all stops or express, but Northern's only commitment is to stop them at Harrogate, Horsforth and Leeds.

According to VTEC 7 services in each direction per day and not 6 as mentioned earlier.

Footfall has declined from Harrogate station in the last 12 months.

I haven't travelled to Leeds by rail from Harrogate for ages as I can travel from Ripon to Leeds by car in 50 minutes with no difficulty parking in Leeds.
Ripon-Harrogate by car is 30 minutes if you are lucky plus 38 minutes for the rail journey, with a connecting time of 15 minutes to buy rail ticket, already takes 30 minutes longer than car throughout. Station car park space at Harrogate, Hornbeam Park and Pannal is non-existant after 7-30 am each weekday so no point in trying.

Regular commuters from Ripon to Leeds have also given up on rail for this reason.
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But as you say below nothing is set in concrete. Northern don't have to use the turnback just because Network Rail decided to build it.

But why spend £8m renewing this facility and work to raise line speed over the junction by 15mph unnecessarily if there were no plans for it? This was a third of the total cost to resignal Leeds-Harrogate.

As we know it was/is used regularly by Leeds-Horsforth shuttles.
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Why keep posting about plans that are divorced from what's going to happen? Nothing is set in concrete.

I keep posting in reply to those who equally do not know what is happening in the future. As you say nothing is set in concrete so don't criticise me for mentioning what was planned four years ago.

 

[najaB]

has anyone thought of a tram system for Leeds?

Indeed they did.

 

[deltic08]

Has this been announced? Earlier yesterday you were telling us that there were enough DMUs to run the improved service, so why should it be deferred because of delays in DMU cascades.? :-?

Does it have to be? I have just told you it has been deferred because of shortage of trained crew.

 

[anti-pacer]

Just a quick question, if Harrogate "needs" extra trains to London, why not just extend the York stopper?

 

[Deerfold]

According to VTEC 7 services in each direction per day and not 6 as mentioned earlier.

They will run 7 services a day. The current one and the 6 paths they take over from Northern in 2019.

No one said they will run 6 a day.

 

[AndrewP]

Just a quick question, if Harrogate "needs" extra trains to London, why not just extend the York stopper?

Would be a good option and could also serve Knaresborough.

For a new park and ride station on the Harrogate Line an ideal location could be Flaxby near the A1M Junction where it meets the A59 close to Knaresborough and could relieve pressure on several locations, including York and Harrogate, although it is not especially close to Leeds.

For the airport a dedicated express bus from Leeds centre or even Horsforth station (like the one they have at Luton Airport) would be very effective.

The Harrogate line itself always strikes me as being an unusual mix of commuter and rural but is definitely more commuter than ever when I travel on it

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just a quick question, if Harrogate "needs" extra trains to London, why not just extend the York stopper?

Single-line sections between York and Knaresborough, possibly? Don't know if that section of the loop is full to capacity but it probably isn't far off. The Leeds side of the loop is (IIRC) double-track throughout so can more easily accommodate more services. There's also the advantage that the London services will also add significant capacity for journeys into Leeds.

 

[deltic08]

Would be a good option and could also serve Knaresborough.

For a new park and ride station on the Harrogate Line an ideal location could be Flaxby near the A1M Junction where it meets the A59 close to Knaresborough and could relieve pressure on several locations, including York and Harrogate, although it is not especially close to Leeds.

The Harrogate line itself always strikes me as being an unusual mix of commuter and rural but is definitely more commuter than ever when I travel on it

At the risk of being accused of telling porkies or peddling old material, a new station is planned at Flaxby to serve the new 3,000 home village there. It was to be a single platform station on a single line served by a shuttle bus from Boroughbridge five miles away that is planned to double in size by 2025 in the local district plan.

This has now stalled as NYCC has succumbed to pressure from Harrogate Chamber of Trade and agreed to pay £11m for double tracking between Knaresborough and Cattal concurrently with resignalling in 2019 so that Harrogate can have a service to York twice an hour. There is not the funding now for a two platform station and footbridge.
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They will run 7 services a day. The current one and the 6 paths they take over from Northern in 2019.

No one said they will run 6 a day.

Oh yes they did. You did. See #50.

 

[Deerfold]

Oh yes they did. You did. See #50.

Please reread that post. As I've just pointed out, it says VTEC will take over 6 paths from Northern. With the one they already run that makes 7.

 

[lejog]

However many services VTEC are running, the Northern Franchise Agreement says Northern are losing only four paths a day:

With effect from the timetable change date in May 2019, the requirement departing from Harrogate to Leeds between 10:00 and 15:59 is reduced to twenty-two services and between 16:00 and 18:59 is reduced to nine services

This being a reduction from 24 and 11.

The 4tph Northern service from Harrogate to Leeds only applies between 10am and 4pm. There are fewer services in the morning peak, only 10 between 7 and 10am, so presumably no need for this to be reduced if there are additional VTEC services.

 

[AndrewP]

At the risk of being accused of telling porkies or peddling old material, a new station is planned at Flaxby to serve the new 3,000 home village there. It was to be a single platform station on a single line served by a shuttle bus from Boroughbridge five miles away that is planned to double in size by 2025 in the local district plan.

This has now stalled as NYCC has succumbed to pressure from Harrogate Chamber of Trade and agreed to pay £11m for double tracking between Knaresborough and Cattal concurrently with resignalling in 2019 so that Harrogate can have a service to York twice an hour. There is not the funding now for a two platform station and footbridge.

I am aware of this proposal but with changes of ownership and proposals to Flaxby its hard to keep up with what is going on and what will actually happen. I was meaning more from the perspective of a stand alone park and ride irrespective of what development ever happens there.

If I recall there have also been proposals for another station between Knaresborough and Flaxby connected with development.

I totally support the double tracking and re-signalling as this could allow intercity services from York and could relieve pressure on the station itself if required.

 

[deltic08]

I am aware of this proposal but with changes of ownership and proposals to Flaxby its hard to keep up with what is going on and what will actually happen. I was meaning more from the perspective of a stand alone park and ride irrespective of what development ever happens there.

If I recall there have also been proposals for another station between Knaresborough and Flaxby connected with development.

I totally support the double tracking and re-signalling as this could allow intercity services from York and could relieve pressure on the station itself if required.

East Knaresborough has gone quiet of late since Flaxby was proposed. Knaresborough Council opposes extending east with houses on greenfield sites.

 

[Grumpy]

The paper suggests further extensions to a number of car parks.
One of these is New Pudsey.
It might be better to put the money intended for Pudsey towards a new station at Calverley.

 

[bluenoxid]

The paper suggests further extensions to a number of car parks.
One of these is New Pudsey.
It might be better to put the money intended for Pudsey towards a new station at Calverley.

Do you mean on the ring road (A6120 between Rodley roundabout and Horsforth)?

It isn't really Calverley any more with development pushing in from the north. Horsforth South would be a more apt name. And it won't solve the accusations that Calverley village feel very isolated from other nearby areas.

The proposal for New Pudsey could be quite interesting. The station car park is already full by the tail end of the morning peak.

I pushed for improved pedestrian access to the station, which I think would help relieve use of the car park.

 

[deltic08]

Just a quick question, if Harrogate "needs" extra trains to London, why not just extend the York stopper?

Two reason, the first is because of single line sections between Knaresborough and Cattal and Hammerton and Poppleton and the second is Starbeck level crossing that is already closed four times an hour across a very busy A59 Liverpool-York road.

This is the reason the additional Leeds-Harrogate trains will terminate in Harrogate and are not extended to Knaresborough. Closure eight times an hour is unacceptable with the level crossing closed up to 35 minutes every hour.

 

[bradders1983]

Two reason, the first is because of single line sections between Knaresborough and Cattal and Hammerton and Poppleton and the second is Starbeck level crossing that is already closed four times an hour across a very busy A59 Liverpool-York road.

Ha, you would have to be a proper nutter to use that road to travel Liverpool/York rather than go M62/M1/A1/A64

 

[Deerfold]

Ha, you would have to be a proper nutter to use that road to travel Liverpool/York rather than go M62/M1/A1/A64

I don't think there was any suggestion that anyone would do that, but it does describe the road fairly well (though it starts at Wallesey in the West). It's usually busy with people on the A59 for a subset of that journey.

 

[bradders1983]

I don't think there was any suggestion that anyone would do that, but it does describe the road fairly well (though it starts at Wallesey in the West). It's usually busy with people on the A59 for a subset of that journey.

Maybe calling it the Harrogate to Skipton road in this instance may have been more sensible

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe calling it the Harrogate to Skipton road in this instance may have been more sensible

Given the level crossing is not on the Harrogate-Skipton section, I don't think it would have been. Harrogate-York would be a reasonably good description of this section of road (though it bypasses central Harrogate), but Wallesey-York remains a good description of the A59 as a whole.