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New stations for Leeds

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deltic08

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Ha, you would have to be a proper nutter to use that road to travel Liverpool/York rather than go M62/M1/A1/A64 :D

Only a nutter would bother to post about it. You can't even get it right when you do. Who mentioned anything about travelling from Liverpool to York along the A59?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maybe calling it the Harrogate to Skipton road in this instance may have been more sensible ;)

I suggest you think before you post. It was not referred to as the Harrogate-Skipton road because it is NOT the Harrogate-Skipton road
 
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Grumpy

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Do you mean on the ring road (A6120 between Rodley roundabout and Horsforth)?

It isn't really Calverley any more with development pushing in from the north. Horsforth South would be a more apt name. And it won't solve the accusations that Calverley village feel very isolated from other nearby areas.

.

Yes somewhere approximately near the old Calverley and Rodley station. There's a lot of new housing development nearby, and as you imply it would be attractive for commuters in South Horsforth and up towards Rawdon. These are unlikely to use New Pudsey given the state of the A6120. It took me 17 minutes this evening from joining the queue at Dawsons corner to get to Calverley Lane. Similarly the state of the A65 will reduce the attractiveness of Kirkstall.
I appreciate commuters from Calverley can use New Pudsey but this might be an attractive alternative and reduce demand for parking at Pudsey. It took me
 

bluenoxid

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Calverley does have Apperley Bridge as does Rawdon (and I understand that the latter are using it in droves).

I don't think that a station at that site would do much to the A6120. It is really the only feasible road crossing the Aire valley between Leeds and Bradford on a north-south axis, so it will receive a lot of traffic.

New Pudsey car park will be expanded as part of the current proposals. However, I have advocated better walking routes to the station. There are houses in Pudsey easily less than a mile from New Pudsey but 1.5+ miles by a reasonable access route.
 

bradders1983

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Only a nutter would bother to post about it. You can't even get it right when you do. Who mentioned anything about travelling from Liverpool to York along the A59?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I suggest you think before you post. It was not referred to as the Harrogate-Skipton road because it is NOT the Harrogate-Skipton road

Well thats interesting, I just put Harrogate to Skipton into Google Maps and look what comes up?

http://i.imgur.com/53qMjyc.jpg

It is indeed the FASTEST and SHORTEST route.

You can apologise when ready.
 

Deerfold

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Well thats interesting, I just put Harrogate to Skipton into Google Maps and look what comes up?

http://i.imgur.com/53qMjyc.jpg

It is indeed the FASTEST and SHORTEST route.

You can apologise when ready.

But as I've already pointed out to you, the level crossing we're discussing is not on this section of the road.

If you follow the entire section of road you've posted a picture of, you will not pass the level crossing - suggesting it's not a very accurate way of describing the road through the level crossing.
 

bradders1983

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But as I've already pointed out to you, the level crossing we're discussing is not on this section of the road.

If you follow the entire section of road you've posted a picture of, you will not pass the level crossing - suggesting it's not a very accurate way of describing the road through the level crossing.

Ah I see. In which case I am the one who needs to apologise :oops:

Still, calling it the Liverpool-York road is rather silly.
 

Deerfold

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Ah I see. In which case I am the one who needs to apologise :oops:

Still, calling it the Liverpool-York road is rather silly.

I don't see what's silly about calling a road which goes from (just outside) Liverpool to York the Liverpool to York Road, especially when also referenced as the A59.
 

bradders1983

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I don't see what's silly about calling a road which goes from (just outside) Liverpool to York the Liverpool to York Road, especially when also referenced as the A59.

Because its just a ridiculous thing to say. If someone was going from Milton Keynes to Towcester, do you really think they would be saying "I'm going to be driving along the A5 London to Holyhead road to get there"? :D
 

Deerfold

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Because its just a ridiculous thing to say. If someone was going from Milton Keynes to Towcester, do you really think they would be saying "I'm going to be driving along the A5 London to Holyhead road to get there"? :D

I don't see why not.
 

AndrewP

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For info there are proposals for an A59 Knaresborough bypass which would also bypass Starbeck crossing. However, as most traffic is local there anyway I doubt it would make a massive difference and there is no way that crossing could be replaced without demolishing half of Starbeck!
 

Grumpy

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Calverley does have Apperley Bridge as does Rawdon (and I understand that the latter are using it in droves).

I don't think that a station at that site would do much to the A6120. It is really the only feasible road crossing the Aire valley between Leeds and Bradford on a north-south axis, so it will receive a lot of traffic.
I am sure people from Calverley and Rawdon (the top end) are using Apperley Bridge. The trouble is that the car park at Apperley Bridge wasn't built big enough and it's now fully used. I visited recently and all the normal spaces were occupied. There were a further 24 cars parked either on the circulation roads, at the end of rows, or completely on the pavement. It now needs extending just as much as Pudsey.
Building a new Calverley and Rodley would take the pressure off Apperley and Pudsey and appeal to new passengers (eg from South Horsforth and the Horsforth end of Rawdon).
 
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deltic08

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Well thats interesting, I just put Harrogate to Skipton into Google Maps and look what comes up?

http://i.imgur.com/53qMjyc.jpg

It is indeed the FASTEST and SHORTEST route.

You can apologise when ready.

Not relevant. You introduced travelling time and most suitable route between Liverpool and York in response to my naming the A59 as passing through a level crossing in Starbeck EAST of Harrogate. Where does fastest route between Skipton and Harrogate come into it?

I say again. Think before you post
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Because its just a ridiculous thing to say. If someone was going from Milton Keynes to Towcester, do you really think they would be saying "I'm going to be driving along the A5 London to Holyhead road to get there"? :D

I did not say anything about travelling anywhere along this road. Just mentioned it is a road from X to Y that happens to intersect with a level crossing that is a bottleneck now without doubling the trains over it every hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't see why not.

I would if it helped to explain where I was travelling for others who did know the area. But in this case I was not travelling just explaining the importance of it being a busy A road not just a country lane.

To confuse bradders more, this is the quickest route from Harrogate to York, level crossing notwithstanding.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For info there are proposals for an A59 Knaresborough bypass which would also bypass Starbeck crossing. However, as most traffic is local there anyway I doubt it would make a massive difference and there is no way that crossing could be replaced without demolishing half of Starbeck!

It is actually called the Harrogate Northern Relief Road, as bypass is now a controversial word, will cost £80m and only remove 4% of traffic across Starbeck level crossing. Harrogate and North Yorkshire County Councils are spending £0.5m promoting this bypass.

Reinstating Harrogate-Ripon will cost £60m, remove 4% of traffic travelling in Harrogate and both Councils are not interested. No surprises there then.
 
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bluenoxid

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I don't know if spending what will approach £15m on a railway station at South Horsforth (or Rodley???) would be justified until the opening of the new stations and car park expansions are allowed to settle.
 

AndrewP

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It is actually called the Harrogate Northern Relief Road, as bypass is now a controversial word, will cost £80m and only remove 4% of traffic across Starbeck level crossing. Harrogate and North Yorkshire County Councils are spending £0.5m promoting this bypass.

Reinstating Harrogate-Ripon will cost £60m, remove 4% of traffic travelling in Harrogate and both Councils are not interested. No surprises there then.

I support the reinstatement of the railway but as well as the relief road as it will benefit more than just Harrogate
 

deltic08

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Harrohate Chamber has just put out another press release that a new Parkway station is the most cost effective solution to Leeds/Bradford airport access problems. I think not.

Compare the cost of building two InterCity length platforms deep in a cutting and road access between there and the airport a mile away with building a 1.5 mile railway line from Horsforth to the airport.

Motorists will only use this station for P&R if the car park is within a few minutes walk away, not a mile away from the station with a shuttle bus connection.

Rail passengers from the Harrogate end would prefer train to train transfer at Horsforth rather than train to bus transfer at a Parkway station.

Passengers from the Leeds end would prefer a through train to the airport rather than a train/bus mode change at a Parkway station only a few hundred yards beyond a stop at Horsforth.

This really is not a practical alternative to a rail connection. The junction has already been installed. How much will it cost to build less than two miles of railway line across open fields? This is a once in a generation opportunity to build a rail connection when money is available.
 
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snowball

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I thought previous studies said the gradient of a new rail link would be too steep for heavy rail and at the limit for tram-trains (unless the station at the airport was deep below the terminal).

Roads can be much more flexible as to both gradient and curvature, so a road link would be cheaper than a rail link - massively so if the rail station had to be tunnelled.
 
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Cletus

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Harrohate Chamber has just put out another press release that a new Parkway station is the most cost effective solution to Leeds/Bradford airport access problems. I think not.

Compare the cost of building two InterCity length platforms deep in a cutting and road access between there and the airport a mile away with building a 1.5 mile railway line from Horsforth to the airport.

Motorists will only use this station for P&R if the car park is within a few minutes walk away, not a mile away from the station with a shuttle bus connection.

Rail passengers from the Harrogate end would prefer train to train transfer at Horsforth rather than train to bus transfer at a Parkway station.

Passengers from the Leeds end would prefer a through train to the airport rather than a train/bus mode change at a Parkway station only a few hundred yards beyond a stop at Horsforth.

This really is not a practical alternative to a rail connection. The junction has already been installed. How much will it cost to build less than two miles of railway line across open fields? This is a once in a generation opportunity to build a rail connection when money is available.

I wonder if "Harrohate" is a typo or not? :lol:
 

lejog

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The same would be said for a car park close to a Parkway station. The ground from the railway to airport at this point averages 1 in 6 gradient with the airport 350 feet higher than the railway and a good mile distant. A hairy journey by connecting bus in the snow!!

This really is not a practical alternative to a rail connection. The junction has already been installed. How much will it cost to build less than two miles of railway line across open fields? This is a once in a generation opportunity to build a rail connection when money is available.

First the journey from the station to the terminal would be hairy by bus, now Network Rail are supposed to build a rail line up a (supposed) 1 in 6 average gradient. :?
 
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lejog

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Also as I pointed out earlier, while budget is available, Network Rail resources aren't - budgets for upgrades to the Calder Valley line planned for five years funded by the same WY+TF have been reassigned because Network Rail can't do the work before the budget expires.
 

eisenach

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Compare the cost of building two InterCity length platforms deep in a cutting and road access between there and the airport a mile away with building a 1.5 mile railway line from Horsforth to the airport.

As a kid in the early 70s, I spent a lot of time at Pounds Farm down the lane from Cookridge cricket pitch and on the bridge overlooking the tunnel entrance. Is that where they're suggesting building a station ? I can't imagine it, nor the new roads they'd have to build to the airport. How things change.
I'm sure there must be better solutions, though. How about rebuilding the station at Arthington triangle at the other end of the tunnel. It's further by road to the airport, but a much better place for a station. It would provide Otley with a rail link, too if there were a good link bus service and a decent sized car park.
 

bluenoxid

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Harrohate Chamber has just put out another press release that a new Parkway station is the most cost effective solution to Leeds/Bradford airport access problems. I think not.

Compare the cost of building two InterCity length platforms deep in a cutting and road access between there and the airport a mile away with building a 1.5 mile railway line from Horsforth to the airport.

Motorists will only use this station for P&R if the car park is within a few minutes walk away, not a mile away from the station with a shuttle bus connection.

Rail passengers from the Harrogate end would prefer train to train transfer at Horsforth rather than train to bus transfer at a Parkway station.

Passengers from the Leeds end would prefer a through train to the airport rather than a train/bus mode change at a Parkway station only a few hundred yards beyond a stop at Horsforth.

This really is not a practical alternative to a rail connection. The junction has already been installed. How much will it cost to build less than two miles of railway line across open fields? This is a once in a generation opportunity to build a rail connection when money is available.

I am not this lots biggest fan. This group introduced the idea of running tube trains on third rail track on this loop. Next they will be coming up with silly ideas to put diesel engines in them.

First of all lets look at the current situation. The traffic in this area is shocking. Someone has a puncture and everything comes to a halt. The bus service is pretty poor and thanks to the traffic, it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of service. So we know the status quo is pretty dire and needs changing. Passengers face a journey that is not enjoyable and very little helpful ticketing.

You talk about the costs of two things but lets make sure you are right?

I havs not seen any reference to an Intercity length platform station for this, so I expect the longest platforms to be 100-120m in length. No mention has also been made of where the car park will be for this station as well.

You are looking at a substantial extension from the railway line creating a brand new formation. It may include tunnels and will need to interface with the road system including a proposed bypass. In addition, the trains will need to terminate somewhere in Leeds or a platform created at Horsforth. This will require work at Leeds railway station or some form of street running system.

Travellers from Harrogate are probably not that bothered on the link. They are facing a pretty brutal climb over the windswept footbridge to a tram at Horsforth or a trip over the footbidge at LBA parkway to a bus stop. I assume you are planning some form of architectural design that covers Horsforth station that are a few million to fit.

Personally, I would do neither. I would suggest to upgrade Horsforth and give it some proper platforms that can take the IEP. I would canopy the station and build a footbridge at the north end of the station that links to a bus that would carry travellers direct to Leeds Bradford Airport. It could initially be a direct route to Scotland Lane, with more work as demand picks up.

We must not forget that at the moment, we have a poor service and we want to see improvements. However, the current infighting is not helping move us forward towards any improvements.
 

Grumpy

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Travellers from Harrogate are probably not that bothered on the link. They are facing a pretty brutal climb over the windswept footbridge to a tram at Horsforth or a trip over the footbidge at LBA parkway to a bus stop. .

Spot on. Travellers from Harrogate to the airport are a well-heeled bunch who are most likely to use their cars/cadge a lift from friends or family/take a taxi.
If they need to use public transport there is a direct through bus at approximately hourly intervals that takes just over 30 minutes. A journey that involves interchanging from a local train is likely to take longer and be less pleasant than the direct bus.
 

Grumpy

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Personally, I would do neither. I would suggest to upgrade Horsforth and give it some proper platforms that can take the IEP. I would canopy the station and build a footbridge at the north end of the station that links to a bus that would carry travellers direct to Leeds Bradford Airport. It could initially be a direct route to Scotland Lane, with more work as demand picks up.
.

If the main driver is the need to provide a rail+bus service from Leeds then there is no need to spend anything at Horsforth. Apperley Bridge is only a couple of minutes further from the airport than Horsforth (offset by a quicker rail journey) and has a proper access for buses. This could be developed as an airport hub by simply putting on a direct bus to the airport. This could cater for not only passengers from Leeds but also from stations on the Aire Valley which would probably be a bigger market than Harrogate
 
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bluenoxid

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Spot on. Travellers from Harrogate to the airport are a well-heeled bunch who are most likely to use their cars/cadge a lift from friends or family/take a taxi.
If they need to use public transport there is a direct through bus at approximately hourly intervals that takes just over 30 minutes. A journey that involves interchanging from a local train is likely to take longer and be less pleasant than the direct bus.

I should have explained myself better. They will still want the link. The current bus service is not good enough. The type of link from the railway station to the airport won't fuss anyone. The reliability and punctuality will speak volumes.

The Apperley Bridge proposal is a good idea. With some form of green wave traffic light control, it could be a very good value implementation.
 

leedslad82

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I should have explained myself better. They will still want the link. The current bus service is not good enough. The type of link from the railway station to the airport won't fuss anyone. The reliability and punctuality will speak volumes.

The Apperley Bridge proposal is a good idea. With some form of green wave traffic light control, it could be a very good value implementation.

They could start straight away and divert the 747 service into Apperley bridge. It runs along the main road past the station anyway. Only issue is its not direct to airport and diverts into yeadon village on the way
 

HowardGWR

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This thread got very bogged down on airport access. I can't believe this issue forms more than 1% of transport needs in the Leeds area.
 
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