New ScotRail EMU's, Any more news?

[SC318250]

I think you will find that when Queen St closes for platform extensions and slab track renewal that services from Edinburgh will either be diverted to terminate at Springburn or will be diverted to Glasgow Central if space can be found.

Likewise I suspect Oban/Fort William/Mallaig services will start/terminate at Dumbarton Central or Dalmuir and then will run ecs to Eastfield or turn back

Suspect Aberdeen and Inverness service to run to and from Springburn

 

[Altnabreac]

I think you will find that when Queen St closes for platform extensions and slab track renewal that services from Edinburgh will either be diverted to terminate at Springburn or will be diverted to Glasgow Central if space can be found.

Likewise I suspect Oban/Fort William/Mallaig services will start/terminate at Dumbarton Central or Dalmuir and then will run ecs to Eastfield or turn back

Suspect Aberdeen and Inverness service to run to and from Springburn

I can assure that is not the current plan. Not all services will run through Low Level and I suspect there will be some Springburn terminators but Network Rail intend to run at least a basic service via Anniesland during the closure.

 

[NotATrainspott]

As I understood the briefing I saw from NR the intention was to run anti clockwise only during the blockade.

As such I'm not sure whether they intend only to provide access from Maryhill to the southbound line at Anniesland, rather than a more expensive full crossover?

Not sure what if any of the lines in that area would be bi-di signalled.

Because the Anniesland connection would be used only a few times a day, it would not be worth it to build it as a proper connection designed for trains to run in both directions. This is similar to how the WHL/Maryhill line connects east of Westerton one station down the line. Another crossover to allow trains to run on the mainline properly is necessary too but these are already provided in both cases for electric services: at Westerton, there's the single-lead junction up to Milngavie and south of Anniesland there's the single-lead connection to the ECS curve towards Yoker and the depot. Using these requires wrong-way running eastwards through Westerton P2 and northwards through Anniesland P1, which would be avoided if there is an anti-clockwise service.

That anti-clockwise service really is something quite intriguing. Not only would it avoid running the wrong way through Anniesland but it wouldn't conflict at Hyndland East or Bellgrove either. Are the ScotRail 170s fitted with SDO? Otherwise there might be a problem getting 6x23m Turbostars to stop at the 6x20m North Electrics platforms.

 

[clc]

The capacity issues will mostly be through the junctions where trains will cross each others paths. Running the E&Gs anti clockwise would mean very few conflicting moves and should be fairly easy to fit in.

Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't realised it was in one direction only.

 

[380gk]

Because the Anniesland connection would be used only a few times a day, it would not be worth it to build it as a proper connection designed for trains to run in both directions. This is similar to how the WHL/Maryhill line connects east of Westerton one station down the line. Another crossover to allow trains to run on the mainline properly is necessary too but these are already provided in both cases for electric services: at Westerton, there's the single-lead junction up to Milngavie and south of Anniesland there's the single-lead connection to the ECS curve towards Yoker and the depot. Using these requires wrong-way running eastwards through Westerton P2 and northwards through Anniesland P1, which would be avoided if there is an anti-clockwise service.

That anti-clockwise service really is something quite intriguing. Not only would it avoid running the wrong way through Anniesland but it wouldn't conflict at Hyndland East or Bellgrove either. Are the ScotRail 170s fitted with SDO? Otherwise there might be a problem getting 6x23m Turbostars to stop at the 6x20m North Electrics platforms.

They'll only 've stopping at GLQ low level

 

[Class 170101]

The main reason for asking about clockwise and anti-clockwise running is that whilst there are more conflicts in clockwise running - agreed and noted there are also services from Aberdeen, Inverness, Alloa and Dunblane / Stirling to think about.

Assuming four GLQ to EDB services are still required to operate thats two clockwise and two anti-clockwise.

The other option is some services run ECS from Glasgow Queen Street Low Level to Eastfield (anti-clockwise) and some to Yoker (clockwise).

 

[Altnabreac]

The main reason for asking about clockwise and anti-clockwise running is that whilst there are more conflicts in clockwise running - agreed and noted there are also services from Aberdeen, Inverness, Alloa and Dunblane / Stirling to think about.

Assuming four GLQ to EDB services are still required to operate thats two clockwise and two anti-clockwise.

The other option is some services run ECS from Glasgow Queen Street Low Level to Eastfield (anti-clockwise) and some to Yoker (clockwise).

I think from what was said to me the plan is to run 2tph to EDB round the loop during the blockade. I think they also plan to run more Semi fast Airdrie services as well for Edinburgh passengers.

 

[170401]

The main reason for asking about clockwise and anti-clockwise running is that whilst there are more conflicts in clockwise running - agreed and noted there are also services from Aberdeen, Inverness, Alloa and Dunblane / Stirling to think about.

Assuming four GLQ to EDB services are still required to operate thats two clockwise and two anti-clockwise.

No services will run clockwise. E&Gs will run half hourly calling Linlithgow, Polmont, Falkirk High and Croy. The 2 E&G services per hour that run anti clockwise will stop at Queen st low level to terminate from Edinburgh and then immediately restart a new service to Edinburgh running via Springburn to access the E&G at Cowlairs.

Aberdeen and Inverness services are likely to be diverted via Cumbernauld and the R&C to Glasgow Central.

I'm not yet sure of the plan for the locals but I'd imagine it'd be something like a through service from Alloa/Dunblane/Stirling - Cumbernauld/Falkirk Grahamston via Springburn with connections at Springburn to Glasgow Queen st LL and possibly supplemented by buses. Cumbernauld electrics would be temporarily suspended with DMU's taking over the work.

This formula has been used previously and seems to work (Croy - Cumbernauld via Springburn ran last year, around Christmas if I remember right, during a blockade)

 

[southern442]

That's not unreasonable for design life for what's effectively a commuter train. If they go into service in 2016, that takes us out past 2050. I'm pretty sure by then that there will be something better on the market. If not, then inspect and recertify for another 15 years or so.

The class 303's managed 43 years in service, and the Glasgow subway original stock lasted 81 years (obviously not comparable to NR though). A lot of other commuter trains have exceeded 40 years too.

 

[najaB]

The class 303's managed 43 years in service, and the Glasgow subway original stock lasted 81 years (obviously not comparable to NR though). A lot of other commuter trains have exceeded 40 years too.

Thing is, as your may know, design life is just a number that is used to allow the engineers to choose appropriate materials. It is possible to build a train that would last virtually forever, but it would be more expensive to build (and probably more expensive to operate).

They are commonly exceeded/extended in other areas - I believe that the A320 had a design life of around 48,000 cycles but as they do the analysis to prove it safe, they are steadily increasing it with an eventual target of >90,000 cycles.

 

[southern442]

Thing is, as your may know, design life is just a number that is used to allow the engineers to choose appropriate materials. It is possible to build a train that would last virtually forever, but it would be more expensive to build (and probably more expensive to operate).

They are commonly exceeded/extended in other areas - I believe that the A320 had a design life of around 48,000 cycles but as they do the analysis to prove it safe, they are steadily increasing it with an eventual target of >90,000 cycles.

I suppose you are right - there is no way they expected the A stock to last half a century in service.

 

[Class 170101]

No services will run clockwise. E&Gs will run half hourly calling Linlithgow, Polmont, Falkirk High and Croy. The 2 E&G services per hour that run anti clockwise will stop at Queen st low level to terminate from Edinburgh and then immediately restart a new service to Edinburgh running via Springburn to access the E&G at Cowlairs.

Aberdeen and Inverness services are likely to be diverted via Cumbernauld and the R&C to Glasgow Central.

I'm not yet sure of the plan for the locals but I'd imagine it'd be something like a through service from Alloa/Dunblane/Stirling - Cumbernauld/Falkirk Grahamston via Springburn with connections at Springburn to Glasgow Queen st LL and possibly supplemented by buses. Cumbernauld electrics would be temporarily suspended with DMU's taking over the work.

This formula has been used previously and seems to work (Croy - Cumbernauld via Springburn ran last year, around Christmas if I remember right, during a blockade)

On Sundays in the past I thought Glasgow QS to Edinburgh ran half hourly via Springburn whilst the local service to Cumbernauld was extended to Alloa. Aberdeen and Inverness services also diverted via Cumbernauld and Springburn.

Either way it will be interesting to see what the train plan looks like.

 

[170401]

On Sundays in the past I thought Glasgow QS to Edinburgh ran half hourly via Springburn whilst the local service to Cumbernauld was extended to Alloa. Aberdeen and Inverness services also diverted via Cumbernauld and Springburn.

Either way it will be interesting to see what the train plan looks like.

Yeah, this usually happens anytime the E&G shuts between Cowlairs and Greenhill Jns.

It certainly will be an interesting period, even with just the 2 E&Gs per hour, the low level platforms will be extremely busy.

 

[Scotrail84]

No diesels are allowed in the LL as there is no vent system. If any pass through they have to coast through.

No trains will go from Inverness/Aberdeen to Central as no depots with conductors have the route knowledge for that line. Even central guards have lost that route now from Cumbernauld to Motherwell. That's doo operated now.

 

[aylesbury]

According to the latest news the new EMUs will not be built in Newton Aycliffe, but in Japan.

Not very good for UK suppliers.

 

[scotraildriver]

No diesels are allowed in the LL as there is no vent system. If any pass through they have to coast through.

No trains will go from Inverness/Aberdeen to Central as no depots with conductors have the route knowledge for that line. Even central guards have lost that route now from Cumbernauld to Motherwell. That's doo operated now.

Diesels can now stop in the low level following a fire alarm upgrade. The sleeper has been stopping there since September. Big thread about it on here.


There is a considerable route revision/training plan just getting started, this week it is getting all drivers and guards passed out via Dalmeny, and will be followed by various others. So it is perfectly plausible to run these trains to Central.

 

[Scotrail84]

Diesels can now stop in the low level following a fire alarm upgrade. The sleeper has been stopping there since September. Big thread about it on here.


There is a considerable route revision/training plan just getting started, this week it is getting all drivers and guards passed out via Dalmeny, and will be followed by various others. So it is perfectly plausible to run these trains to Central.

What depots and what roads?

 

[D6975]

According to the latest news the new EMUs will not be built in Newton Aycliffe, but in Japan.

Not very good for UK suppliers.

Where did that come from?
The only report I've seen said that the production pattern would be the same as the 800/801s, ie first few built in Japan, then the main run at Newton Aycliffe. The report specifically mentioned Newton having two production lines.

Hitachi have already declared their intention to use Newton as their main factory for any orders they might get from European railways.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Will these new Hitachi machines have the new shiny monitor screens in the cab just like its big cousin 800 series?
If so does that mean we will have DOO with a ticket examiner on central belt routes?

 

[Scotrail84]

Will these new Hitachi machines have the new shiny monitor screens in the cab just like its big cousin 800 series?
If so does that mean we will have DOO with a ticket examiner on central belt routes?

Nobody knows yet. I hope they are not doo units. My guess is transport Scotland will want them ran as cost effective as possible, meaning doo operation.

If the E+G goes doo then wave bye bye to centrals via shotts (when wired), North berwicks, dunbars and Dunblanes etc. all will go doo and there's nothing the trade unions can realistically do (no pun intended) to stop it spreading throughout Scotland.

The RMT would need huge support from ASLEF and political backing.

 

[170401]

No trains will go from Inverness/Aberdeen to Central as no depots with conductors have the route knowledge for that line. Even central guards have lost that route now from Cumbernauld to Motherwell. That's doo operated now.

Is it not possible to train staff to work the route? Admittedly it'll be a huge undertaking but not impossible with the costs being underwritten by Network rail and ultimately the EGIP project. The only other options would be to terminate them at Stirling or run them to Edinburgh with passengers connecting to already heavily laden Glasgow services. Probably much more convenient just to train the appropriate staff on the routes concerned, remember this closure will be for 4 months straight, not just a few weekends!

Just a few years ago all drivers and conductors based in the central belt were trained on the Edinburgh sub to facilitate engineering closures at Haymarket.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is it not possible to train staff to work the route? Admittedly it'll be a huge undertaking but not impossible with the costs being underwritten by Network rail and ultimately the EGIP project. The only other options would be to terminate them at Stirling or run them to Edinburgh with passengers connecting to already heavily laden Glasgow services. Probably much more convenient just to train the appropriate staff on the routes concerned, remember this closure will be for 4 months straight, not just a few weekends!

Just a few years ago all drivers and conductors ybased in the central belt were trained on the Edinburgh sub to facilitate engineering closures at Haymarket.

No they weren't mate.

 

[aylesbury]

Comment on construction of emu,s in Febuary Modern Railways.

 

[Chris125]

Will these new Hitachi machines have the new shiny monitor screens in the cab just like its big cousin 800 series?
If so does that mean we will have DOO with a ticket examiner on central belt routes?

I'd be amazed if they weren't built for DOO, if only to maximise flexibility, but it will be up to the operator whether it's used.

Comment on construction of emu,s in Febuary Modern Railways.

Does it actually say they will all be built in Japan? This seems highly unlikely, surely a misunderstanding rather than a change of plan.

Chris

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I would expect that all the new builds of all classes will have all the internals for guards panels but for TOCs that want DOO they'll just have the place where the guards panel is plated over/blanked out

 

[170401]

[/B]

No they weren't mate.

Yes they were, I was one of them. At least Edinburgh, Queen st and Stirling crews were all trained on Edinburgh sub, Haymarket West Jn - Portobello Jn. The engineering closures if I remember right were to facilitate the electrification of Haymarket north tunnel amongst other things. The services that ran round the sub were mostly E&Gs.

 

[thetangoman]

I do believe they are to be used on the Helensbugh to Edinburgh route which is DOO so it would make sense

 

[170401]

I do believe they are to be used on the Helensbugh to Edinburgh route which is DOO so it would make sense

Can you give an online reference to back this up?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I do believe they are to be used on the Helensbugh to Edinburgh route which is DOO so it would make sense

North Clyde, Argyle and Cathcart Circle platforms are 6x20m long and it would be very challenging to extend enough of them to allow DOO. The new trains are 3-4x23m long so could not double up when necessary. There are plenty of electrified or soon-to-be-electrified routes that don't run through these platforms that they can find use on. Simultaneously, the existing 3x20m EMUs (minus the 314s) are to be kept and refurbished for continued use on their current lines. Putting new longer 160km/h trains on 140km/h routes with platforms too short for them and putting old shorter 140km/h trains on 160km/h routes with platforms that are being extended at great expense for them would be utter madness.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

North Clyde, Argyle and Cathcart Circle platforms are 6x20m long and it would be very challenging to extend enough of them to allow DOO. The new trains are 3-4x23m long so could not double up when necessary. There are plenty of electrified or soon-to-be-electrified routes that don't run through these platforms that they can find use on. Simultaneously, the existing 3x20m EMUs (minus the 314s) are to be kept and refurbished for continued use on their current lines. Putting new longer 160km/h trains on 140km/h routes with platforms too short for them and putting old shorter 140km/h trains on 160km/h routes with platforms that are being extended at great expense for them would be utter madness.

Is there any form of SDO or ASDO in existence that could be safely used in them stations with DOO?