New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[Failed Unit]

If the barriers stop a single person not paying their fare they will increase profits.That's a no brainer.

If you sit in a single position on a train and see somebody caught that is fine but you don't see the totality of the fare evasion. As I said, if you worked on the railways in a revenue role you would understand the true scale of the problem.

So tell me how many people travel on east coast without paying. I totally disagree that if it cost £100k to fit the barriers to stop some not paying a £100 fare it is a worthwhile investment! Shareholders want to see return on investment not money wasted! As I have said east coast biggest loss of revenue is because of people travelling on non-valid tickets not no ticket at all! Something the barriers can stop! London to York? Easy single to finsbury park and claim you got on a northern train when you arrive at York - simple.

But of course if you can give me some real evidence independent of ATOC spin that barrier prevent ticketless travel on inter-city journeys I am all ears. While you are at it tell me how do you stop FCC only tickets on east coast services with barriers. How many years will it take to get a return on investment on the barriers. What will they do to stop people getting through without a ticket by saying I am using HT or GC frog march them onto the train?

 

[Tom B]

If the barriers stop a single person not paying their fare they will increase profits.That's a no brainer.

Not if a large amount of money has been spent on installing them...

I'm yet to hear any explanation as to how Delay-Repay will be handled - surely they'll have problems with passengers being unable to prove they travelled because of the barriers. I'd also hope staff don't act like ScotRail's seem to and attempt to take the ticket off you even if you wish to retain it.

And as to comments re: guards not checking properly, that is surely something which ought to be sorted by telling the guards to do their job rather than wasting money on barriers?

 

[jon0844]

FCC seem to be quite quick to hand out delay repay forms, presumably as in many cases the refund will be recharged to another TOC or Network Rail - so it offers good customer service, without any real cost (to them).

In these cases, people are allowed through and told to keep their tickets.

If the gates are opened when necessary, I am sure things will be fine at King's Cross and people will wonder what all the fuss was about. Gates are a necessary evil, and anyone who travels around London will be used to them on the Underground and hardly seem put out by them.

 

[PinzaC55]

So tell me how many people travel on east coast without paying. I totally disagree that if it cost £100k to fit the barriers to stop some not paying a £100 fare it is a worthwhile investment! Shareholders want to see return on investment not money wasted! As I have said east coast biggest loss of revenue is because of people travelling on non-valid tickets not no ticket at all! Something the barriers can stop! London to York? Easy single to finsbury park and claim you got on a northern train when you arrive at York - simple.

But of course if you can give me some real evidence independent of ATOC spin that barrier prevent ticketless travel on inter-city journeys I am all ears. While you are at it tell me how do you stop FCC only tickets on east coast services with barriers. How many years will it take to get a return on investment on the barriers. What will they do to stop people getting through without a ticket by saying I am using HT or GC frog march them onto the train?

I'll flip that question round and ask you this; "Taking into account that ticket barriers generally are expensive to install and staff, why do you think the TOC's would be spending money on them if they weren't producing a return?"

More specifically you seem to have an extreme problem with these barriers. What is the real nature of that problem. Honestly?

 

[Failed Unit]

I'll flip that question round and ask you this; "Taking into account that ticket barriers generally are expensive to install and staff, why do you think the TOC's would be spending money on them if they weren't producing a return?"

More specifically you seem to have an extreme problem with these barriers. What is the real nature of that problem. Honestly?

In urban areas I believe they work. For inter-city the dont as they make it easier to avoid the correct fare. Simple.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I'll flip that question round and ask you this; "Taking into account that ticket barriers generally are expensive to install and staff, why do you think the TOC's would be spending money on them if they weren't producing a return?"

More specifically you seem to have an extreme problem with these barriers. What is the real nature of that problem. Honestly?

Well I may be naive, but I just assumed they can show a definite saving in staffing costs, rather than an assumed cost of fare evasion.
Accountants running businesses eh, whatever next!

 

[jon0844]

They need to be staffed, and FCC have quite a few for platforms 9-11 (usually 3 or 4) which is probably more than you see anywhere near 0-8. Given the gates are going to be in separate lots, given the structure of the building, there will probably be a fair few staff members - who can actually give advice too.

 

[Greenback]

Failed Unit may have a point about whether the barriers are suitable for Kings Cross. I don't use the station a lot myself so I;m not sure whether they will be appropriate.

I have to say, though, that the gates operate quite swiftly and the delays that are caused are due to people dithering, not having their tickets ready to go through the barriers, or simpyl being confused. I accept that this is more likely to occur with infrequent travellers, especially tourists.

I;v ebeen to many stations where a large number of people get off a train and it can take a while to get off the platform when there are no barriers or checks!

In general, I think they are a good thing, but on train checks must be maintained, and there may be stations where they are compeltely unsuitable due to historical difficulties.

 

[jon0844]

Commuters will probably get through easily, and while 400+ people might get off a train - they're not all at the gates at once. It takes a while to walk along eight carriages, so there's already a bit of a natural regulation.

It's probably worse going in, when a train is announced at platform X and everyone on the concourse rushes to the gates at once. But, I am sure even EC would quite like the fact that people won't all rush on to the train in one go now.

Personally, I think all of the fears will prove unfounded. At least I hope that will be the case. Only time can tell.

 

[Greenback]

The biggest problem I've seen at Paddington is when tickets are rejected. The passenger then usually tries again two or three times before a member of staff comes to help. Of course, the layout at Paddington is probably better than Kings Cross, but I've never been delayed more than a few seconds because of the ticket gates there.

 

[Aictos]

From what I've seen, there's going to be 8 members of staff available in the area for the gates when they go live on 7th Feb, this consists of:

1 Team Leader
3 Gate Line Assistants
1 Excess Fares Assistant
2 Customer Service Assistants
1 Service Gate Operator

Passengers with the wrong ticket or without a ticket will be advised upon arrival to see the guy on Excess Fares duty.

Some of the reasons that East Coast have chosen to accept the gates is:

Improves safety and security
Will work alongside checks made by Guards
Is part of the work to provide a new Kings Cross
Protect revenue

Gates should be operational between 06:15 and 21:00 between Monday to Friday with later opening times on the weekend.

From where the various staff will be located, there ought not to be a problem and the scare monging by some people will be prove to be baselese of course I willing to be proven wrong!

 

[Failed Unit]

Some of the reasons that East Coast have chosen to accept the gates is:

Improves safety and security
Will work alongside checks made by Guards
Is part of the work to provide a new Kings Cross
Protect revenue

That is my whole problem - improve security at Kings Cross! Not really a problem at a major London terminal, I could see that point at a small station like Hornsey to stop petty vandalism.

But it is works with the gaurds? I dont think anyone will disagree the gaurd needs to check every ticket to catch FCC only tickets, or the person that used a london - finsbury park ticket to pass the barriers. The gaurd needs to sell a new ticket in both cases as well as people using an AP on the wrong train. If the ticket checks on train need to be that good there is absolutely no need for them. The problem is the on train checks need improvement.

However IC Travellers have more baggage and often both hands full adding to the delay as they need to put down what they are carrying, get the ticket etc. Commuters are well oiled machines ready for putting a ticket through having it in the correct hand.

 

[jopsuk]

Of course, with 6&7 having been finished, and 4&5 now the pair out of use, it is really just 0-3 that are going to be affected- three out of seven usable "main shed" platforms will still have no barriers- presumably 2&3 will be done after 4&5- then does work need to be done to 1 (taking 0 out of action)?

 

[island]

If the barriers stop a single person not paying their fare they will increase profits.That's a no brainer.

In a vacuum, yes. As you may have seen in the rest of the thread, there is a school of thought (of which I am not a member) that using barriers will reduce the frequency of on-train checks (due to either management action or guards assuming that everyone's checked already) resulting in an increase in over-riding and/or travelling in 1st on a Std ticket, either of which are damaging to revenue.

 

[jon0844]

If it's a ploy to cut back on-train checks then the TOC will likely lose revenue, and annoy those who pay their way. However, there's no proof that this will happen (or any worse if it's ALREADY happening as alleged by stories on here).

There are already members of staff by the gates even though they're open (complete with signs to say not in use) so I presume they're getting ready. It's good to see staff, and when all the platforms are finished - there will be plenty of room to stand 'airside' to avoid the scrum (if such a nightmare situation actually occurs that often).

Personally, I think the gates are great - and any complaints in the future should be directed at the train operators that let their onboard checking flag. There seems to be evidence that this is happening already, so blaming the gates is too easy.

 

[Deerfold]

Personally, I think the gates are great - and any complaints in the future should be directed at the train operators that let their onboard checking flag. There seems to be evidence that this is happening already, so blaming the gates is too easy.

My main concern about the gates is the congestion I think they will cause. I dislike the gates at Leeds as they stick out into the station and when it's busy make transferring from Platforms 1 -5 to the rest of the station much slower. They also seem to be passable without a valid ticket far more easily than when tickets were all manually checked by about the same number of staff who man the gates.

I'm not sure how much use they'll be at Kings X - though they will presumably mean some ticket would have to be held. Without any effort I travelled from KGX to SON last week again without having my ticket checked (so I've not been checked on 3 of my last 6 journeys - 1 South and 2 North).

 

[jon0844]

If nobody checks a ticket on the train that goes to an unprotected station, that's the fault of the TOC and should be pursued separately.

FCC will gain, but still lose out if people can get through with an Oyster Travelcard and then stay on the train to Peterborough (or one of the many ungated stations along the line). Yes, they risk a PF, but there's probably a good chance of getting away with it a lot of the time.

 

[Failed Unit]

Who should we complain at if the FCC trains end up on the non-gated platforms (considering FCC don't do on train revenue protection) and the HT / GC trains where you are allowed to buy on board end up in the barriered bit .

But yes I will certainly complain to east coast if tickets are not checked as per previous posts. It is not acceptable if it is easier to travel to Edinburgh for the price of a single to Finsbury park.

 

[jon0844]

If EC has already stopped checking, the smart evader currently buys no ticket at all. So, at least they'll have to buy SOMETHING.

FCC does of course do on train revenue protection - I was checked only this morning - but it's random in its nature.

It would be stupid if FCC continues to check tickets (for those who stay on too long or sit in first class) and EC stopped.

And, I must admit that when I see people being caught, they've just not got a ticket at all.

 

[Failed Unit]

East Coast have not stopped checking on trains heading to Edinburgh can't comment about Leeds. Every time I have used then in the last year all tickets were checked by the first stop of my train which is exactly why I don't see the barriers are needed for east coast services. A position that I am not going to alter. 45 minutes is more than enough to check an east coast train.

 

[philjo]

I have had my ticket checked on FCC GN services at least 3 times in the last fortnight.
In the coach I was in they mainly seemed to be finding people using off-peak tickets in the peak, or who had got expired railcards rather than no ticket at all.

 

[Tom B]

That's an interesting point, if a passenger wishes to catch a Hull or Grand Central train, will the barrier droids allow them through? Or will they insist on a ticket being purchased first?

 

[jon0844]

They can't insist on you buying a ticket beforehand, so my guess is that they'll let you through - but may cause a fuss if you ask to be let through when there's no GC or HT service there (or it's not open for boarding).

I have no idea how they'll keep track of that, but I'm assuming the gateline staff will be fairly well clued up being railway staff as against hired in private security goons.

There aren't that many services on GC or HT are there? I'm guessing it's not the best system to get through without having a ticket, and if an RPI can establish you boarded at King's Cross and all the gates were active (as and when all platforms are gated and secured, which is a way off) then surely that would make it easier to prosecute.

Of course there will always be loopholes and tricks (one being to simply double up and go through with someone who has a valid ticket), but the gates are part of an organised strategy to cut fare evasion and fraud. More fool any TOC that thinks you can use one without the other.

 

[amcluesent]

I've yet to see any slacking off regarding EC on-train inspections on KGX-PBO.

The other weekend I'd been checked KGX-PBO on my season ticket, but was untroubled on my way to Glasgow on a PBO-GLA 1st Advance; just past Motherwell, the clippy appeared as if by magic.

 

[jon0844]

I'm off to Leeds this weekend so will be very keen to see if they check tickets. There's 50 minutes from KGX to PBO!

 

[Deerfold]

I'm off to Leeds this weekend so will be very keen to see if they check tickets. There's 50 minutes from KGX to PBO!

I'll let you know if they check me KGX to LDS tomorrow too.

 

[amcluesent]

Are EC staff pulling out all the stops to get penalty fare commission before it all ends on 7th Feb?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are EC staff pulling out all the stops to get penalty fare commission before it all ends on 7th Feb?

Not at all, because EC do not operate a penalty fare scheme...

 

[island]

They do, unless I'm mistaken, get 5% of on-train ticket sales.

 

[amcluesent]

A gate has gone in today to oblige people to go through the barriers on 0-5, even though these are all open at the moment. It's already annoying to have to battle through the melée on the main concourse.