Failed Unit
Established Member
Just do what all the fare dodgers will do buy the cheapest return ticket you can to pass the barriers. In this case a return to Finsbury Park.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
New automatic ticket gates at Kings Cross
- Thread starter Aictos
- Start date
- Status
Just do what all the fare dodgers will do buy the cheapest return ticket you can to pass the barriers. In this case a return to Finsbury Park.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I don't think you could be any more bitter if you tried.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Not on this topic I can't. I don't like seeing my tax wasted on something that is not needed, doesn't work and makes passengers life worse. I pay a lot of money for the pleasure of travelling with east coast. I expect everyone else to pay as well. But to sound like a broken record the only way to ensure everyone has a valid ticket is to check it on the train. This needs to be done barriers or not so the barriers serve no purpose just delay passengers.
In which case East Coast need to enforce ticket checking on board, which isn't done all the time.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I couldn't agree more. I know fare evasion on FCC will remain high and something needs to be done there. A 6, 7 and 8 are currently unbarred you would hope FCC trains are kept away from those platforms. Although 6 & 7 are closed anyway at the moment.
When york was proposed for barriers there was a campaign for everyone to go up and say they wanted to travel with GC and buy on the train. I guess the problem with that is that they need to get out again.
I am not against barriers. Shame FCC don't protect some of their smaller stations were free travel is normal. Frequent stop routes they are the best tool for the job. I just hope east coast increase on train checks otherwise watch the lost revenue on their services rocket! If the frequency of on train checks reduces I will certainly be writing to ask Ms Holt why she doesn't take revenue protection seriously and why she thinks it is acceptable the barriers have made it easier to avoid paying the correct fare. We will see.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
There are actually two "not beyond this point" signs; the one on platform 8 is at the point where the dividing wall ends; the one on platform 9 is further along at the end of the platform.
So strictly speaking you can go as far as the end provided as you are on the platform 9 side of an imaginary line projected forwards from the end of the wall...
I actually agreed with most of that post. Finsbury Park is getting barriers at some point soon, which will make a big difference to FCC, but I wonder where else on the FCC network you would like to see them? Obviously I'm pro-barriers, but some stations are so quiet (Knebworth, Welwyn North...) that it'd be ridiculous paying for barriers and having staff man them.
I certainly think Harringay, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace should be gated, somehow, even if it's just to secure the stations (not that I'm suggesting they're crime hotspots). It'd be nice to see more staff about these places too.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Most of the stations in the travelcard area should have at least manual checks in the peaks like Scotrail do at place like Falkirk and Edinburgh Park. I haven't use Palmers green or New Barnet since I left London but they certainly have enough people in the peak to warrant it.
In the summer a couple of east coast trains I used had total ticket inspections. If you didn't have you ticket with you going to the buffet or toilet you had to go and get it. I haven't seen these for ages but invest the money the barriers cost in that kind of check. Once news of that kind of check gets out the very few chancers left on east coast will soon go.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Unfortunately true. Metro in Newcastle use to do it. Amazingly at the time it was barrierless! Many people looked at it as I get caught 3 times per month. 3x penalty fare cheaper than buying one months of tickets. In Edinburgh the did a sting where they blocked the last station before Edinburgh. They got many evaders that look the view they just buy at Edinburgh and say they got on at South Gyle. Some of these people should have known better.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
What a load of old tosh, it's unlikely to only be one person working the manual gate purely for safety reasons.
You do realise it is possible to buy a platform ticket from any ticket office and seeing as it's Kings Cross we're discussing there the staff should be more then familiar with the retailing of such tickets.
Indeed it was the one thing that GNER used to do at Peterborough but sadly don't anymore.
Agreed, I've only had my passes checked the once this week so far on East Coast and I've used them pretty much all week.
I don't see why gates to protect all platforms should stop East Coast continuing to check on board. Especially as Ms Holt is extremely pro revenue protection.
And as someone who pays a lot to use FCC, my view of the gates is somewhat different. Gate all stations if you can, even quiet ones like LO for the security and reassurance to passengers. Not that this will ever happen, but I would like it to.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
And as someone who pays a lot to use FCC, my view of the gates is somewhat different. Gate all stations if you can, even quiet ones like LO for the security and reassurance to passengers. Not that this will ever happen, but I would like it to.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
Unfortunately there aren't any manual gates; they have installed a load of Wags (Wide Aisle Gates), meaning people will either go through in large groups, or go through really slowly by putting their ticket in, waiting for the paddles to open, then closing again before the next ticket is accepted.
At least with manual gates staff can spot when multiple people go through and can use their common sense and give each ticket only a cursory glance in order to ease the pressure where there is severe congestion.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
Yes but if there is severe congestion as you have stated above then for safety reasons the gates would be opened to ease the overcrowding, no one in their right mind would want to slow the flow of passengers even if it's just a cursory glance.
Failed Unit
Established Member
But people are saying they don't check on board now, so why will they start when the gates are in. I mean gates are wonderful. No one travels between Newcastle and York on an XC only ticket using an east coast service do they.
My experience is the gaurds check after each station on the Edinburgh route. but it appears the Leeds route the may not. I wonder if that is because most stations on it have barriers?
I hope you are not held up too long everyday while you watch the freeloaders just follow honest passengers through the gate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which I expect will be every day in the peak. Total waste of money.
Well, if there aren't gates now, why are they already not bothering to check? That's a separate problem, and I wonder if that is company policy or staff are simply not checking?
I accept that gates aren't quite as important for Intercity trains, but they do still serve a purpose - and it's not just Intercity services going from King's Cross (and FCC do use platforms other than 9-11).
EC does of course really need gates at all of its stations (including York!) and after that, the on-train checks are really needed only for things like people upgrading to First Class. That annoys me too, but not as much as someone not paying at all. But, they're not all going to get gates - just as the small stations won't get them either.
We talk about KGX as if no other major terminus has gates, when many do. Do they cope? Do they get so busy the gates are all opened? I've not really seen that at Liverpool Street or Waterloo, so I am guessing that with more gates (and KGX has quite a few so far, with many more to come) they won't need to be opened as they are at, say, Welwyn Garden City where there are three normal gates and one wide gate - to manage people in both directions.
A totally ridiculous situation, which either causes dangerous queues back to the platform edges - or has them opened. I'd say it's pretty likely you would know exactly what trains will ensure being let through every single time due to the number of people alighting at the same time.
Last edited:
Failed Unit
Established Member
East Coasts needs to improve on train checks - not waste money on gating stations. People travelling with the wrong ticket is east coasts biggest problem not people travelling with no ticket.
Case point. Yesterday my train was leaving from platform 3. A train had recently arrived on 2. Mob trying to board 1400 on platform 3. People with bikes heavy baggage etc trying to leave platform 2 as the had waited for the crowds to leave. 7 minutes later we had boarded.
Gaurd checked all tickets by Doncaster. Why bother with the kings cross check. You could argue this check cost east coast money. If a person with a GC only ticket was on board the gaurd would have charged the a full open single. Same story with someone with a London - Peterborough ticket. Although they would have both passed the barrier and the east coast would have still got the sale.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Euston is similar as an IC terminal - it has no gates. Paddington does but London to Reading is a shorter distance then London - rugby or London - Peterborough so much more difficult to check everyone.
Case point. Yesterday my train was leaving from platform 3. A train had recently arrived on 2. Mob trying to board 1400 on platform 3. People with bikes heavy baggage etc trying to leave platform 2 as the had waited for the crowds to leave. 7 minutes later we had boarded.
Gaurd checked all tickets by Doncaster. Why bother with the kings cross check. You could argue this check cost east coast money. If a person with a GC only ticket was on board the gaurd would have charged the a full open single. Same story with someone with a London - Peterborough ticket. Although they would have both passed the barrier and the east coast would have still got the sale.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Euston is similar as an IC terminal - it has no gates. Paddington does but London to Reading is a shorter distance then London - rugby or London - Peterborough so much more difficult to check everyone.
I can only go on anecdotal evidence, but my personal experience is that the gates never get opened in the morning peak at 9-11, however long the queues get.
(I generally get there at around 8.30am...)
The way to ensure everyone has a ticket is to check tickets at the barrier AND on the train. I used to work KX - York trains in the 1980's and even then it was occasionally difficult to check all tickets properly by Doncaster if it was busy. Even if barriers are provided you need on train checks in case of passengers joining at intermediate stations having travelled from unstaffed stations without tickets.
Then of course it is a simple fact that some guards simply cannot be bothered to do their job properly so barriers lessen the impact of their laziness.
The current culture in which many people see it as "OK" to dodge their fare is the fault of British Rail in introducing the "Open Stations" policy in an effort to make as many ticket barrier staff redundant as possible.
Failed Unit
Established Member
But BR didnt have problem in the 80s of AP tickets or TOC specific tickets. Yes the had London - Peterbourgh NSE only tickets but the money went to br anyway. Not now where east coast will be carrying passengers were first group get all the revenue for example.
I suppose the best I can hope for now is that the Edinburgh fast services only depart from platforms without gates. If tickets can't be checked onboard when it is first stop York it is a bad job. That way at least I won't have to wait 10 minutes just to pass through the barriers as people try opening them with the reservation or stop dead in front of it while they get their tickets out etc. Or YP holders who need to queue for the manual gates as they have programmed them to reject then, meanwhile they have tried to use it 3 times. Please don't patronise me with people will get used to it, many IC passengers don't use the train very often to get used to it unlike commuters. Or watch the riots when a train is late as we need to keep tickets for delay repay. "it has taken my ticket! I need it to prove I travelled train x. I didn't know it would take it"
I suppose the best I can hope for now is that the Edinburgh fast services only depart from platforms without gates. If tickets can't be checked onboard when it is first stop York it is a bad job. That way at least I won't have to wait 10 minutes just to pass through the barriers as people try opening them with the reservation or stop dead in front of it while they get their tickets out etc. Or YP holders who need to queue for the manual gates as they have programmed them to reject then, meanwhile they have tried to use it 3 times. Please don't patronise me with people will get used to it, many IC passengers don't use the train very often to get used to it unlike commuters. Or watch the riots when a train is late as we need to keep tickets for delay repay. "it has taken my ticket! I need it to prove I travelled train x. I didn't know it would take it"
Last edited:
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
That's the same way I believe, tickets ought to be checked at both the barriers and onboard after all, tickets are checked at the barriers in Peterborough in the morning and on the trains as well (East Coast) so what's the problem with the same approach at Kings Cross?
Only problem is, you get some staff who believe it's not their job to retail tickets and just sit around reading papers!
Failed Unit
Established Member
Do you get 400 people trying to leave an IC train at Peterborough with bags, bikes etc? I doubt it! Coupled with another 400 trying to pass through the otherway? Tell me how many people think I fancy a day out in York I won't get my caught I fancy my chances. Again not enough to jusify delaying the poor honest passenger who just wants a hastle free journey. I am the first to admit that FCC have major problems but checks on trains with them is nearly non-existent anyway. People will always fancy their chances with a 10p permit.
Been a while since many FCC stations had permit to travel machines.
As an aside, the tube entry points at Kings Cross cope at rush hour with no quiet times, so as long as there aren't too many people with invalid or damaged tickets, it should be pretty quick for 400 people who generally know what they are doing, as against tourists and first timers off peak!
The best way to speed things up is to give everyone smartcards and do away with almost all paper tickets. This might be why the gates have no queues at tube stations, bar times where staff are deliberately regulating access to platforms.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
As an aside, the tube entry points at Kings Cross cope at rush hour with no quiet times, so as long as there aren't too many people with invalid or damaged tickets, it should be pretty quick for 400 people who generally know what they are doing, as against tourists and first timers off peak!
The best way to speed things up is to give everyone smartcards and do away with almost all paper tickets. This might be why the gates have no queues at tube stations, bar times where staff are deliberately regulating access to platforms.
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
With respect the fact that you have to queue at ticket barriers or anywhere else is irrelevant - queues are a fact of life in Britain and will always be so- the other day I had to queue for 15 minutes at my local post office (ironically one of the ones they wanted to close!).The TOC's are private companies with a duty to their shareholders to maximise profits and if that means installing barriers then tough.
" Tell me how many people think I fancy a day out in York I won't get my caught I fancy my chances."
You'd be surprised.Get a job on the railway in a revenue role and see how it goes.
With a licence to run a public service (and East Coast *isn't* a private company) - it's not unreasonable for us to air our views - and several have suggested that it's not clear-cut that barriers will increase profits.
amcluesent
Member
- Joined
- 19 Dec 2010
- Messages
- 877
EC today have flyers on the seats in 1st carriages with info on the barriers. Enabled 7th Feb on platforms 0 to 5.
is that to reassure the "free upgraders" that they'll get away with it, since the barriers can't tell where they sat?
Failed Unit
Established Member
But there is absolutely no evidence the barriers will increase profits. In fact it could make then worse as barriers make it easier to avoid paying the correct fare. I will be interested to see how this is reported next year. Profit up due to growth or profits up due to the barriers.
One thing is for certain as I said earlier I will write into east coast and DFT everytime I dont get my ticket checked between Peterborough and London asking them why the don't take revenue protection seriously and what they are doing about preventing people travelling with the wrong ticket on their trains. I can't stop the barriers but I can highlight why they are a waste of money.
I make a lot of journeys on east coast. A lot of people travel with the wrong ticket and gaurds do very well at detecting these and charging them. I see very few with no ticket at all, those that have always come from a connecting trains and didn't have chance to buy it on board.
If the barriers stop a single person not paying their fare they will increase profits.That's a no brainer.
If you sit in a single position on a train and see somebody caught that is fine but you don't see the totality of the fare evasion. As I said, if you worked on the railways in a revenue role you would understand the true scale of the problem.
- Status