New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[Fred26]

I don't know about on-train checks. From my experience though, East Coast on-train checks are rare anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't know about on-train checks. From my experience though, East Coast on-train checks are rare anyway.

They sound worse on the Leeds route then the Edinburgh route. I wonder if that is because most of the stations on the Leeds route already have barriers. On the Edinburgh route you normally get checked at least twice as the crew change at Newcastle.

But if they don't start checking tickets on trains then east coasts biggest loss of revenue will still continue and the pointless barriers will have made it even easier to do it!

 

[Fred26]

That'll be up to East Coast to judge though. Also, if they do continue/start to lose revenue, they'll increase checks, as that will be the only thing left to do. However, we've got no idea if East Coast are planning to reduce on board checks. This is pure speculation.

 

[Failed Unit]

That'll be up to East Coast to judge though. Also, if they do continue/start to lose revenue, they'll increase checks, as that will be the only thing left to do. However, we've got no idea if East Coast are planning to reduce on board checks. This is pure speculation.

I didnt suggest they were it has just happened on other routes I use. My point was the barriers do nothing to stop east coast biggest revenue loss people travelling on the wrong ticket. The barriers make this easier. The only way to prevent this is to check tickets on board. So what is the point of having the barriers at Kings Cross? Someone travelling to Peterborough on a FCC ticket is as bad to east coast as someone travelling with no ticket at all! Don't waste the money on barriers spend it on RPIs who are much more useful.

 

[Waddon]

On the subject of the rebuilding of Kings X, can anyone tell me how the station is meant to work when the rebuilding is complete? Because if they are demolishing the old BR building at the barrier end of the platform, where are people supposed to wait/queue for trains?

The remaining bit of the original building is going to be hardly much wider than a corridor. Yes I know the new concourse area is going to be much larger, but do the designers really think people will wait there until their train is announced? Anyone who travels through a major terminal will have noticed that regular passengers and others always wait around the barriers for their train, but there's going to be no space for this at all in the new design (plus the replacement footbridge is narrow and thin like the one that was originally there, so that won't help)

Am I missing something?

 

[jon0844]

No, people will be expected to wait (or shop!) to the west of the platforms. But, the front area will be open (a bit like Euston I imagine) with shops, seats and trees - and people will no doubt hang about there, assuming it isn't raining or freezing.

I'm sure it will be okay when it's done and more open.

 

[Fred26]

...I have yet to see anyone provide a business case or payback period for these including east coast or DFT...

Who do you expect this to be provided to?

You haven't answered this yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, people will be expected to wait (or shop!) to the west of the platforms. But, the front area will be open (a bit like Euston I imagine) with shops, seats and trees - and people will no doubt hang about there, assuming it isn't raining or freezing.

I'm sure it will be okay when it's done and more open.

Also there's going to be a mezzanine level, presumably something similar to that at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[91101]

Sorry to all of those thinking that this was an FCC or DfT led deisciion, but this 110% came from ONE somewhat infamous woman at EastCoast, its nothing whatsoever to do with FCC!

 

[Failed Unit]

Fred26 - me as a taxpayer and stakeholder in the company. In the present enviroment I don't like seeing my tax wasted on ineffective white elephants like the barriers. If they can't justify they will ever provide a business case the shouldnt go in.

 

[91101]

I am personally of the the opinion that unless you have a completely barriered system, its pointless, there are always going to be holes, and with InterCity operators from London termini its senseless having barriers for several reasons. The ammount of revenue lost to deliberate ticket evasion is relatively low for those travelling beyond Stevenage, and where there is ticket evasion its normally that the customer has paid SOMETHING, but doesnt have the correct ticket.

Now, I've seen this at Euston on down trains since they introduced manual barriers on almost all Monday - Friday trains, basically the guards become lazy, they know that everyone on that train has a ticket and dont go through! They check first and thats that! Seat up, next stop Stoke!

Now, the vast majority of East Coast services stop at Peterborough, so you have someone going to Retford, gets on at Kings Cross, through the barriers with a Peterborough single, and quite comfortably manages to get the Retford, same with Donny or York, DAR/DHM/NCL are now barriered, but the case still remains that onboard ticket checks WILL stop in standard class! I see this now when trains have been manually barriered!

 

[Fred26]

Fred26 - me as a taxpayer and stakeholder in the company. In the present enviroment I don't like seeing my tax wasted on ineffective white elephants like the barriers. If they can't justify they will ever provide a business case the shouldnt go in.

Haha, yeah right. Maybe you should use the freedom of information act, or something...

 

[Tom B]

Haha, yeah right. Maybe you should use the freedom of information act, or something...

Doubtless there will be an excuse for not giving it out; "commercial sensitivity" or such bull****.

Re: the concourse, do you mean to say the area around the current departures board is to disappear?! I often wonder what the people in charge of King's Cross are on - it's a nightmare on a good day!

 

[jon0844]

It's too small in front of the platforms (0-8) so the station is being hugely extended to the west. The temporary, ugly, structure where people queue now goes and the area becomes nice and open - which will then show the front of the station building as once was.

It will be a vast improvement when it's completed. Given the station will be on two levels too, that's even more room (and, hopefully, a decent amount of normal shops instead of the expensive, upper class boutiques in St Pancras (and WH Smiths!).

 

[Mojo]

I had a look at the gates over the weekend and was surprised how few there are! It looks like it'll be chaos.

They're also those horrid slow new types that take ages to open and close. Even the staff don't like them as the tickets get dumped into the capture bin; on the older types there's an escrow which holds the last 10-20 tickets.

I see the gates at Euston have been expanded but replaced with the slow gates; queues can be back to the second coach!

 

[Failed Unit]

I had a look at the gates over the weekend and was surprised how few there are! It looks like it'll be chaos.

They're also those horrid slow new types that take ages to open and close. Even the staff don't like them as the tickets get dumped into the capture bin; on the older types there's an escrow which holds the last 10-20 tickets.

I see the gates at Euston have been expanded but replaced with the slow gates; queues can be back to the second coach!

I will go and take a look tonight, if they do cause major congestion then hopefully they will be removed quickly as well. I understand that St Pancras' gates on the EMT area are often left open at peaks to ease congestion. Even on the High Speed line with its small loadings you often get big queues on arrival.

I may not be a big fan of the manual checks (but that is normally because the platforms at KX are announced very late) but at least they did protect revenue unlike the gates they did stop people with "GC only", "FCC only" and the wrong date AP. Although some could argue that is lost revenue to east coast because if the gaurd or RPI caught them on the trains the person would have got charget the full single anyway. The couldn't say they weren't warned either!

 

[jon0844]

Yes the gates are of the type that will happily allow 2 or even 3 people to pass through. I wonder how closely staff will look out for people doubling up.

You do have police sometimes checking at the gates for 9-11 (well PCSOs usually) but they won't be able to check all of the gates (when the rest go in).

How many trains can leave or arrive at once? When the gates are all the way along from 0-8, people will be able to go through the gates from whatever side they arrive at - and walk 'airside' to their platform.

 

[Tom B]

Is doubling up or just barging through the gates actually prohibited if you hold a valid ticket?

 

[jon0844]

Probably not, just as I'll spot an open gate and walk straight through it without getting my ticket out. My season doesn't require me to touch in or out, so I won't swipe my ticket on bendy buses either (I do suspect that all the other people who don't scan either probably don't have a travelcard though!).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is doubling up or just barging through the gates actually prohibited if you hold a valid ticket?

It must be permitted as long as everyone is ticketed because on several occasions and at different locations when travelling as a family ( 2 adults - one of who is partly sighted and 2 children - one of who is under 5 ) we have asked for the wide gates to be opened manually ( showing the full wad of tickets ) and been told to just put one ticket in and go through the gate as one as they close slowly enough for all four of us to get through.

 

[Failed Unit]

Was a Kings Cross yesterday. The leaflet is taking about how the industry loses 400m a year due to ticketless travel and how crime and ticketless travel are related. Both facts can't be disputed but are problems on Frequent stop services.

Had to suffer the manaul check as well. First stop Doncaster so amazingly all tickets were checked before then (what was the point of delaying the boarding)

So the leaflet is trying to convince people that they are a good thing. The fare dodgers will just carry on anyway. People who want to travel on east coast will FCC only tickets life has got easier and kings cross is now a worse place to be. Everyones a loser!

 

[Fred26]

So the leaflet is trying to convince people that they are a good thing.

But of course.

The fare dodgers will just carry on anyway.

You'll never stop them all.

People who want to travel on east coast will FCC only tickets life has got easier and kings cross is now a worse place to be. Everyones a loser!

Restrictions could always be put on the barriers to only accept walk up tickets, excluding FCC only and AP tickets.
I can't see how they make Kings Cross a worse place to be. I think once the refurbishment is completed, Kings Cross is going to be a great place to be.

Once the refurbishment is completed, the whole station is going to be far more open. Platforms 9, 10 and 11, which, at present are an ugly extension to the main building, will be integrated with the other nine platforms. I can't remember what the actual completed layout will look like, but it may be the case that if platforms 0-8 aren't gated, ticketless travel could be possible from platforms 9-11, as you'd be able to walk along between platforms. That's mere speculation though, because I can't remember.

 

[jopsuk]

You can already walk round the end of 8/9- though I guess there's CCTV monitoring, and there's signs telling you not to(!)

 

[Fred26]

True.

 

[jon0844]

You can already walk round the end of 8/9- though I guess there's CCTV monitoring, and there's signs telling you not to(!)

If I am early for my train, I'll do the walk around just to kill time. Never been told off or 'caught' yet.

I do wonder if anyone really actively monitors the CCTV, and if they do, if they're bothering to check the end of 8/9 instead of other areas of the station.

 

[philjo]

The rear coach of a FCC 8-car service arriving in platform 9 stops in the area at the end of the platform beyond the signs telling you not to go past that point.
If you are getting out of that coach it is much quicker to go straight along platform 8, especially in the morning peak as there will be a queue to exit the barriers for 9-11.

I was standing in that area once when a steam special was in KX (I was early for my departure due from platform 8). Staff were saying that we were not allowed in that area. At that moment an 8-car service pulled into platform 9 alongside us & a lot of people got off from the rear coach between where we were standing & the end of the platform.

 

[Tom B]

Was a Kings Cross yesterday. The leaflet is taking about how the industry loses 400m a year due to ticketless travel and how crime and ticketless travel are related. Both facts can't be disputed but are problems on Frequent stop services.

If only they stopped wasting our money on propaganda?

Restrictions could always be put on the barriers to only accept walk up tickets, excluding FCC only and AP tickets.

Err - then you'd have a huge number of people queuing for the manual gate, who if they all had to show their tickets to one bloke would probably miss the train.

 

[stut]

If I am early for my train, I'll do the walk around just to kill time. Never been told off or 'caught' yet.

I do wonder if anyone really actively monitors the CCTV, and if they do, if they're bothering to check the end of 8/9 instead of other areas of the station.

I used to always do this when my train came into platform 9 (now it's 10, so I have to queue instead...) Having said that, the queues aren't nearly as bad now as when the barriers were originally put in 9-11 - you could be waiting over 5 minutes to leave the platform back then.

At that time, they also often had someone positioned at the end of platform 9 to prevent people going out that way.

At the time, there was a (Elaine Holt era) online Meet The Managers session, where it was suggested that, rather than having someone preventing you from leaving that way, they should inspect tickets and let you out instead. They did this for several weeks, before giving up and just leaving it open.

I still use it, when I have a bike on the racks on platform 9.

 

[Fred26]

Err - then you'd have a huge number of people queuing for the manual gate, who if they all had to show their tickets to one bloke would probably miss the train.

It won't be a one-man job.

 

[colchesterken]

What about trainspotters.never tried to get in at liverpool st as it is my London station
and I always have a ticket
Been lucky on southern just let through the barrier at Charring cross & Victoria
There should be some standard arrangment

 

[Fred26]

What about trainspotters.never tried to get in at liverpool st as it is my London station
and I always have a ticket
Been lucky on southern just let through the barrier at Charring cross & Victoria
There should be some standard arrangment

Are you seriously suggesting that barriers shouldn't be installed just so that a tiny minority (train spotters) can be appeased? Laughable.

If you want to go spotting, you'll have to ask the staff on the barriers, maybe buy a platform ticket, but probably just ask for access.