New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[Failed Unit]

Which ought to put paid to the views that Kings Cross shouldn't have them,

No it won't at least not for the East Coast services.

Poor train crew all that lost commission.

 

[Aictos]

Liverpool Street and Paddington is gated to which they seem to cope reasonably well with the InterCity traffic, anyway I reckon the guards will offered a package to soften the blow.

 

[Failed Unit]

People keep saying Liverpool street has intercity services. Even if you still consider Norwich - london as Inter-City (I don't any more) it is such a small portion of the number of trains out of Liverpool Street it is hardly worth considering. It doesn't work a Norwich from what I hear. Likewise Paddington it gets people through but does nothing to stop the two most common forms of ticket misuse. The overdistance and the AP deliberately on the wrong train. Service of of paddington are also different you have a significant flow with short journey time of 30 minutes. East coast are at least 45, many are above 1 hour.

I am still waiting to see anyone say gates increased revenue by x%. Central trains tried it but the reason the list so much revenue was because they had open stations and staff often didn't have time to sell tickets. Installing TVM at stations would have done the same thing but not made out all passengers to be criminals. If 50 people get on at Market Rasen did they really expect the gaurd to sell them all a ticket by Lincoln?

The north London line was used as an example. Again none existent ticket check on the train was the reason here so RPI would have help then. Gaurds cant check and sell tickets when the need to do safety critical duties ever 2 minutes.

So I still have no idea what fare evasion they will reduce on east coast. People don't do that distance by chance. The hide in the toilet mob will just get a single to finsbury park anyway. Everyone loses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would be interested. How much will these things cost? Both as buy and ongoing cost? How much revenue do they expect to bring in which would not otherwise have got collected? (I don't think catching someone on an off-peak which should be a peak counts this would have got done on the train anyway) how many years will it take before payback? I suspect for east coast they never will. FCC may do as ticketless travel is much easier to get away with here so is a lot higher.

 

[Deerfold]

Bizarre situation last night.

Passenger got on an EC train last night with just a seat reservation having been told at the station that he would have to buy a ticket. The guard came and had a word with him (as station staff must have contacted him) but he got quite agressive quite quickly and was told that if he didn't buy a ticket then he'd be met my BTP at Doncaster.

We waited a little over 40 minutes at Doncaster for BTP to arrive and detrain him - with no announcements until after we'd left Doncaster.

No other tickets were checked on the journey and we arrived into London 45 minutes late with presumably quiet a large cost to EC via Delay Repay - anyone any suggestions as to what else EC could have done as this way hardly seems economic to them - and yet I can understand they don't just want to let people travel without a ticket because they're aggressive.

 

[Aictos]

The only incident that I'm aware of involving East Coast and Ticketing yesterday is a passenger boarded a Leeds to Kings Cross service and refused to pay for a ticket so to my knowledge the BTP were called and the passenger escorted off the train.

The only thing I will say is the gateline needs to be properly manned at all times by sufficient staff.

 

[Failed Unit]

The only incident that I'm aware of involving East Coast and Ticketing yesterday is a passenger boarded a Leeds to Kings Cross service and refused to pay for a ticket so to my knowledge the BTP were called and the passenger escorted off the train.

The only thing I will say is the gateline needs to be properly manned at all times by sufficient staff.

If that is the case it proves barriers don't work as either they passed through the barriers at Leeds or got on at an unstaffed station and changed at Leeds. If that passenger had got to London they would have got a cheap ride as they would just claim they got on at Hornsey.

I wonder what the barriers will do anyway when a train is 45 minutes late? Will they just return all tickets as default so people can use them for delay repay.

In Scotland since the barriers went up at Queen Street it is now easier to travel with the wrong ticket as ticket checks on the train are less frequent. As a very frequent user of the 1700 kx - Edinburgh service I have never seen anyone get caught with the wrong ticket. Some people buy on board but as most people need open tickets anyway the gaurd may as well get that. It is not as if you are not going to be checked before York anyway. If you were doing that kind of dodge the barriers won't stop you only a manual one would.

 

[Deerfold]

If that is the case it proves barriers don't work as either they passed through the barriers at Leeds or got on at an unstaffed station and changed at Leeds. If that passenger had got to London they would have got a cheap ride as they would just claim they got on at Hornsey.

I wonder what the barriers will do anyway when a train is 45 minutes late? Will they just return all tickets as default so people can use them for delay repay.

In Scotland since the barriers went up at Queen Street it is now easier to travel with the wrong ticket as ticket checks on the train are less frequent. As a very frequent user of the 1700 kx - Edinburgh service I have never seen anyone get caught with the wrong ticket. Some people buy on board but as most people need open tickets anyway the gaurd may as well get that. It is not as if you are not going to be checked before York anyway. If you were doing that kind of dodge the barriers won't stop you only a manual one would.

Apologies - I missed out the fact they boarded at Wakefield Westgate. However I did not have to pass through any barriers
as I got on at an unstaffed station and changed at Leeds - I could have got to London with a £3.50 local ticket.

 

[philjo]

EC website says that the barriers will be operational for Platforms 0-5 at Kings Cross from 7 February.

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/Latest-News1/Gating/

 

[jon0844]

I've seen them and there are loads, and plenty of room - given their location which is further back than I thought they'd be. When they go in on the other side too, I doubt there will be too many problems - especially as people generally queue for a handful of gates and don't even try to use others that have clear green arrows on them.

Regular commuters will probably now have a great way to avoid the crowds on that basis alone.

 

[jopsuk]

Was there on Sunday- presumably a (no gate) barrier will be going in between the end of the bay for 5&6 and the support pillar?

 

[Aictos]

Unless a FCC is in Platforms 0 to 8 then I fail to see how a passenger could claim to have come from Hornsey as there's no connections available between Hornsey and Kings Cross especially if the only trains in these platforms are East Coast/Hull Trains or Grand Central services!

The gatelines can be programmed to reject certain types of tickets so for example in theory could reject all off peak tickets in the peak with the gatelines displaying Seek Assistance.

 

[Deerfold]

I've seen them and there are loads, and plenty of room - given their location which is further back than I thought they'd be. When they go in on the other side too, I doubt there will be too many problems - especially as people generally queue for a handful of gates and don't even try to use others that have clear green arrows on them.

Regular commuters will probably now have a great way to avoid the crowds on that basis alone.

It felt a lot more cramped coming off the platform late on Sunday evening (not the busiest of times) even with just the blocks for the gates in. Will be interesting to see how well it works.

 

[philjo]

Could be interesting in the morning peak.
8-car FCC (from Royston) usually arrives in Platform 1 about 8:05am - people already waiting/arriving on the platform (several of them with bikes) as this train forms the 08:15 departure to Cambridge. already takes a while to get off platform 1.
Within a minute or so of this a 12-car FCC arrives in platform 2 or 3 - so 20 carriages worth of passengers to exit through the barriers at roughly the same time.

 

[Failed Unit]

It will be a very sad day when the are switched on. I was going to take a look the other day but my train departed from platform 8 and I had arrived from St Pancras so never went to that end of the station.

I hope they don't cause to many passengers to miss trains, I doubt it will make any difference at all to East Coast's revenue. I have yet to see any prediction when (if ever) they will pay back, ticketless travel from London is hardly a problem on East Coast. Between Newcastle and Durham maybe it was but not London.

 

[amcluesent]

IIRC barriers are a stipulation of the ToC franchise, not an EC decision to implement or not. I expect it'll be grim with arriving announcements to retain tickets. Even an FCC 8 coach worth creates a jam of passengers to exit platform 9/10/11 gates.

EC regulars all look at the departing platform # on their iPhone app and loiter there until the train called. How will that work, presumably they won't allow peeps barrier side unless there is a train boarding ?

 

[Failed Unit]

IIRC barriers are a stipulation of the ToC franchise, not an EC decision to implement or not. I expect it'll be grim with arriving announcements to retain tickets. Even an FCC 8 coach worth creates a jam of passengers to exit platform 9/10/11 gates.

EC regulars all look at the departing platform # on their iPhone app and loiter there until the train called. How will that work, presumably they won't allow peeps barrier side unless there is a train boarding ?

The can't stop people from passing through the barriers before the train is announce, many people will to avoid the crush causing other problems. If you have a valid ticket you will be let through.

I wonder what they do when xxxx EC service is 30 minutes+ late, open the barriers? Or will they just not retain tickets. I could just imaging an angry mob a single gate wanting tickets returned for delay repay.

I know it wasn't east coasts that decided but they get all the flak for protecting FCCs revenue!

 

[142094]

I wonder what they do when xxxx EC service is 30 minutes+ late, open the barriers? Or will they just not retain tickets. I could just imaging an angry mob a single gate wanting tickets returned for delay repay.

Northern at Blackpool North tell you that you should have asked for a receipt. Which is useful since a receipt doesn't tell you what stations you travelled between.

 

[jon0844]

Well, Elaine Holt wanted the gates when she was at FCC, so I doubt she's that worried about them now she's overseeing EC.

And it's quite easy to open all the gates when things get overcrowded (as happens at WGC, although there are only four gates for TWO platforms and for in/out) so I am sure they'll be opened in situations where there's a large queue. Overall, the gates will still be quite effective - and safety would come over revenue, so I doubt anyone would ever have a go at the person who took the decision to open the gates.

When the gates go all the way along, some people will quite like the ability to go through early and stand in a neutral zone that should, presumably, be pretty quiet. Swings and roundabouts; it won't necessarily be as bad as people think.

 

[Tom B]

I'm not sure what the reason for them is, as East Coast do ticket checks on all services. It'll be a pain to get through with luggage etc, and as others have said will cause problems with delay-repay claims.

I wonder what the procedure is when a passenger puts in for a claim which ends at a gated station, and the ticket was retained? If online they can presumably give the email as some sort of proof, but otherwise? You would hope the TOCs pay out as it's a problem of their own doing, but...

 

[amcluesent]

Delay Repay will be interesting (I'm on a season so photo copy the ticket). Still a nuisance to have to get the ticket out of wallet for PBO staff (soon to be barriers), the on-train inspection, KGX barrier, again at St Pancras gates then finally at City Thameslink gates. Think I'll need a ticket-holding dog-tag soon...

 

[jon0844]

That's part of the reason that I split my ticket, so I only use the paper ticket at Hatfield and Oyster for London.

The paper tickets are a PITA though. I'm on my THIRD ticket and it's only 22nd Jan (got it before Christmas).. and I don't keep my phone anywhere near my ticket or anything else that could damage it, knowingly... The last time I came home and got error 09 on the gate and had to be let through manually, I went to the ticket window only to be behind a lady changing hers! I wonder if the gates are in some way damaging the tickets, or the newer gates have dodgy validators.

The quicker we can put tickets onto a smartcard (or indeed one of the NFC enabled mobile phones now on sale*) throughout the UK the better.

* The Google Nexus S and some Nokia models so far, but will increase in 2011.

 

[Aictos]

The can't stop people from passing through the barriers before the train is announce, many people will to avoid the crush causing other problems. If you have a valid ticket you will be let through.

Only thing is though the service can be altered to use a different platform so while National Rail Enquiries may show the 10:50 Blackpool North via Bradford Interchange service as departing from Platform 8, it could well be changed to Platform 1 so why not wait until it's actually announced?

That being said, the whole process should be overhauled so departures are announced 20 minutes to departure for long distance services and 15 minutes for outer suburban/inner suburban services, means giving time to get passenger though the gates and onto the train but also means they have time to ask staff any questions.

I wonder what they do when xxxx EC service is 30 minutes+ late, open the barriers? Or will they just not retain tickets. I could just imaging an angry mob a single gate wanting tickets returned for delay repay.

I can't see any problem here if there are problems and there will be mass overcrowding then safety comes first and the staff open all the gates seeing as Network Rail manage the station in question, I have to believe it will be up to them to decide the different stages of overcrowding and for the staff to comply.

FCC has issued all it's staff a guide on the management of the automatic gates at it's own stages which is broken down into 4 stages, stage 4 being the worse and where no revenue duties should be carried out but to ensure the gates are open to ease the overcrowding.

I know it wasn't east coasts that decided but they get all the flak for protecting FCCs revenue!

Right so who's revenue is being protected at Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford etc then....

GNER/NXEC decided at the time to gate these stations to protect not only their own revenue but also that of the other operators using the stations so your post stating it wasn't East Coast's decision as it's purely to protect FCC's revenue is bull.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not sure what the reason for them is, as East Coast do ticket checks on all services. It'll be a pain to get through with luggage etc, and as others have said will cause problems with delay-repay claims.

Mainline services out of Waterloo carry loads of luggage, get ticket checked on every service, and even suffer delays. Ticket Barriers are in use at major stations on the whole route, such as Southampton, with its large numbers of cruise passengers taking everything with them including the kitchen sink.

I don't see any of your points being valid reasons why barriers should be any more of a problem when used at Kings Cross.

 

[Failed Unit]

At kings cross the vast majority of east coast passengers have tickets. Mainly because of the distance involved. Newark - Grantham is easy to do without seeing anyone. Peterborough to kings cross isn't. The determined won't be stopped by barriers anyway so the majority suffer for something that isn't a problem for east coast.

 

[Tom B]

At kings cross the vast majority of east coast passengers have tickets. Mainly because of the distance involved. Newark - Grantham is easy to do without seeing anyone. Peterborough to kings cross isn't. The determined won't be stopped by barriers anyway so the majority suffer for something that isn't a problem for east coast.

Precisely - save a very few journeys, all East Coast trains I've been on have had a full ticket inspection - even when ram packed. What is the point in all these passengers getting off, then having to fight their way through those pointless barriers?

With outbound services, there is often a delay in them being announced, although it can sometimes be possible to work out which train is yours. Surely putting a load of barriers in the way is only going to make things worse when trains are announced?

I guess with delay-repay claims you'll have to go through the manual gate or the like - assuming there is someone manning it. Is a passenger who has a valid ticket but barges through the automatic barriers doing anything wrong? He has a valid ticket, after all, but doesn't put it through the barriers so as not to lose it.

 

[Failed Unit]

The other things I have ever seen. How much revenue does east coast lose to ticketless travel? The dont know.

They will still need full inspections to combat the most common types of fraud. London - peterbourgh passengers using FCC only tickets cost east coast more money than ticketless travel as do people using APs on the wrong train. How will the barriers prevent people doing this? It won't.

These barriers are a waste of money. I have yet to see anyone provide a business case or payback period for these including east coast or DFT. FCC have a major problem with revenue collection. East coast don't.

 

[Fred26]

The other things I have ever seen. How much revenue does east coast lose to ticketless travel? The dont know.

They will still need full inspections to combat the most common types of fraud. London - peterbourgh passengers using FCC only tickets cost east coast more money than ticketless travel as do people using APs on the wrong train. How will the barriers prevent people doing this? It won't.

These barriers are a waste of money. I have yet to see anyone provide a business case or payback period for these including east coast or DFT. FCC have a major problem with revenue collection. East coast don't.

Who do you expect this to be provided to?

If East Coast had any objections to the barriers, they would have voiced them and we'd have heard all about it. Therefore, East Coast quite clearly believe that the barriers will be beneficial to their service. The automatic barriers will also be manned by the East Coast RPI's that currently form the manual barriers.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the same way EMT object at Sheffield? The are instructed as a franchise obligation. Stagecoach (or east coast) may not agree to it but they are doing as they are told.

But I just can't believe east coast will gain any revenue as a result. People will still travel with the wrong ticket. In fact such things will probably increase as from experience when barriers are introduced manual checks decrease.

 

[Fred26]

They could still object; or at least appear to object. There'd be nothing stopping them from saying to the press how they dislike the idea but are obliged to have barriers.

Of course manual checks will decrease. They shouldn't change on the trains, but at Kings Cross they'll certainly be reduced to anyone using the double gate where the staff are stood.

 

[Failed Unit]

They could still object; or at least appear to object. There'd be nothing stopping them from saying to the press how they dislike the idea but are obliged to have barriers.

Of course manual checks will decrease. They shouldn't change on the trains, but at Kings Cross they'll certainly be reduced to anyone using the double gate where the staff are stood.

Very dangerous to bite the hand that feeds you. East coast can't really considering who the key stakeholder in the company is.

I sincerely hope that on train checks don't decrease but I have seen it in other areas barriers are introduced. Between Glasgow and Falkirk it is rare to get you tickets checked as both stations have barriers in the peak. This give passengers licence to travel in 1st for no extra cost and reuse flexipasses (as Charing cross has no barriers)