Network Rails North Wales Plans

[TDK]

Especially when compared to services to Manchester/ Liverpool etc.

I have heard that they are proposing flights from Harwarden to Cardiff soon!

 

[merlodlliw]

I have heard that they are proposing flights from Harwarden to Cardiff soon!

They used to, but lack of interest killed it off, but if WG throw £2M at it like the Anglesey tourist flight to keep Cardiff Airport open, then that would be a different kettle of fish, but I don't see that occurring, as all pressure is on rail now at long last.

Bob

 

[Holly]

They used to, but lack of interest killed it off, but if WG throw £2M at it like the Anglesey tourist flight to keep Cardiff Airport open, then that would be a different kettle of fish, but I don't see that occurring, ...

Of course, it might make a huge difference if they built a railway station at Hawarden airport.

 

[merlodlliw]

Of course, it might make a huge difference if they built a railway station at Hawarden airport.

It would make no pax difference whatsoever,in my opinion, except for Politicians no one used the previous service to Cardiff, that's why it closed.

 

[kieron]

I was led to belive that no new "3rd Rail" installments were permitted. The cost of the security and fencing alone will be huge. I cannot ever see it happening anywhere between Wrexham and Bidston. It should really go light rail with overheads but then you have the link to Liverpool.

Not to mention the flat junction in Wrexham and the freight which uses the line in Wales. I'm pretty sure all of the studies were into OHLE anyway, with the assumption that Merseyrail would acquire a few dual voltage trains from somewhere before a through service began.

I have heard that they are proposing flights from Harwarden to Cardiff soon!

They used to, but lack of interest killed it off

Things have moved on since 2007. In particular, Aviation Park Group (who own Hawarden Airport) are building a terminal building, and are looking around for anyone who wants to use it. No Labour politicians are currently willing to comment on whether they're happy to subsidise such flights, going by the story here.

Oh, and a railway station would make little difference to anyone. There are already frequent 'buses which pass the stop on the other side of the airport site, so anyone travelling there by public transport should have few difficulties. The owner's web site currently seems to assume that everyone will drive there, but I'm sure this will change once it becomes operational. Maybe even without input from the WAG.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know what's happening with the Wrexham-Bidston line at the moment? According to NRE, the last train each way is being cancelled each day for the foreseeable future, and replaced by a 'bus which reaches Wrexham an hour later than the original train did. The timetable shows it being cancelled until 22/3, but NRE doesn't show it returning to normal at all.

As this train is convenient for anyone who wants to go from Chester to Wrexham after the last direct train has left, it would be nice to know where the mistake is.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not to mention the flat junction in Wrexham and the freight which uses the line in Wales. I'm pretty sure all of the studies were into OHLE anyway, with the assumption that Merseyrail would acquire a few dual voltage trains from somewhere before a through service began.

Things have moved on since 2007. In particular, Aviation Park Group (who own Hawarden Airport) are building a terminal building, and are looking around for anyone who wants to use it. No Labour politicians are currently willing to comment on whether they're happy to subsidise such flights, going by the story here.

Oh, and a railway station would make little difference to anyone. There are already frequent 'buses which pass the stop on the other side of the airport site, so anyone travelling there by public transport should have few difficulties. The owner's web site currently seems to assume that everyone will drive there, but I'm sure this will change once it becomes operational. Maybe even without input from the WAG.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know what's happening with the Wrexham-Bidston line at the moment? According to NRE, the last train each way is being cancelled each day for the foreseeable future, and replaced by a 'bus which reaches Wrexham an hour later than the original train did. The timetable shows it being cancelled until 22/3, but NRE doesn't show it returning to normal at all.

As this train is convenient for anyone who wants to go from Chester to Wrexham after the last direct train has left, it would be nice to know where the mistake is.

Without subsidy, no Airline Company will touch a Hawarden/Cardiff service, its just a fantasy idea. The Anglesey example is being sought,WG pay £400K a year for the terminal use at Valley, and only one Airline put in a bid to run the Anglesey service and its Almost £1M subsidy.
Absolute pie in the Sky.Hawarden are just looking at the Terminal Subsidy Valley receive, any Airline will look at the last failed attempt.
Chester City centre to Cardiff City centre, by Air saves less than an hour compared to Geralds luxuary in my opinion and Rhoose is hardly City Centre.

As the the Bidston line, not sure, but there is a last bus to Wrexham at 2335 from Chester rail Station daily,if you miss the last up.

 

[eps200]

Well it is a frontier station...

Actually, one of the practical reasons is that 3rd rail electrification is incompatible with steel sleepers.
And predictably, NR have recently relaid much of the line with steel sleepers.
Then there's the NR "no more 3rd rail" posture.

Anyway, the business case is the critical thing and I can't see it working.
If there was a 2tph DMU service it might test the water a bit more.

Perhaps OHLE when Merseyrail get the dual voltage trains, that line would be a hell of a lot more useful if it went all the way to Liverpool. Getting it one more stop to Birkenhead north would be a huge improvement.

 

[jones_bangor]

Perhaps OHLE when Merseyrail get the dual voltage trains, that line would be a hell of a lot more useful if it went all the way to Liverpool. Getting it one more stop to Birkenhead north would be a huge improvement.

Is there some unsurmountable obstacle to running diesels into Birkenhead North?

 

[headshot119]

Not to mention the flat junction in Wrexham and the freight which uses the line in Wales. I'm pretty sure all of the studies were into OHLE anyway, with the assumption that Merseyrail would acquire a few dual voltage trains from somewhere before a through service began.

Things have moved on since 2007. In particular, Aviation Park Group (who own Hawarden Airport) are building a terminal building, and are looking around for anyone who wants to use it. No Labour politicians are currently willing to comment on whether they're happy to subsidise such flights, going by the story here.

Oh, and a railway station would make little difference to anyone. There are already frequent 'buses which pass the stop on the other side of the airport site, so anyone travelling there by public transport should have few difficulties. The owner's web site currently seems to assume that everyone will drive there, but I'm sure this will change once it becomes operational. Maybe even without input from the WAG.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know what's happening with the Wrexham-Bidston line at the moment? According to NRE, the last train each way is being cancelled each day for the foreseeable future, and replaced by a 'bus which reaches Wrexham an hour later than the original train did. The timetable shows it being cancelled until 22/3, but NRE doesn't show it returning to normal at all.

As this train is convenient for anyone who wants to go from Chester to Wrexham after the last direct train has left, it would be nice to know where the mistake is.

It's caused by the relaying of a large portion of the Wrexham - Bidston line, it's apparently cheaper to knock the last train on the head for several weeks than just take out a few days possesion.

Do many people actually use that last train though? I used it a couple of Sundays back, and I was the only person using it south of Shotton until we got to Gwersylt where a handful of people boarded.

Is there some unsurmountable obstacle to running diesels into Birkenhead North?

2F74 13:41 from Wrexham Central, arrives Bidston 14:40. If we take the same section times that are given to the Merseyrail units, it would get to Birkenhead North at 14:42.

2J75 Leaves Bidston at 14:57, after doing a shunt to get out of the way of a passing West Kirkby service, as well as a Liverpool service. It would need to leave Birkenhead North at 14:55 in order to get to Bidston to run in the current path.

It's doable. However I've mentioned on here before, although it is only rumour, that plans are being discussed to upgrade the Bidston line to a 40 minute service for most of the day, coinciding with the reoudbling of Wrexham - Chester. Whether this happens I don't know?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is there some unsurmountable obstacle to running diesels into Birkenhead North?

you'd need to introduce a 3rd DMU into the diagrams to maintain an hourly schedule.

 

[headshot119]

you'd need to introduce a 3rd DMU into the diagrams to maintain an hourly schedule.

How do you get to that conclusion?

 

[Gareth Marston]

How do you get to that conclusion?

Check out the turnaround times in the working tt at Wrexham Central and Bidston - theirs no slack whatsoever. Its arrive and change ends straightaway- going to Birkenhead North is too much for 2 units.

 

[headshot119]

Check out the turnaround times in the working tt at Wrexham Central and Bidston - theirs no slack whatsoever. Its arrive and change ends straightaway- going to Birkenhead North is too much for 2 units.

Having just looked at the WTT rather than the public one I see what you mean. Depends whether they'd be up for offsetting the currently clock face timetable each hour.

 

[jones_bangor]

Check out the turnaround times in the working tt at Wrexham Central and Bidston - theirs no slack whatsoever. Its arrive and change ends straightaway- going to Birkenhead North is too much for 2 units.

Grabbing another 150 from South Wales to allow running through to Birkenhead North seems a lot, lot cheaper than installing 3rd rail / OHLE.....

 

[tom1649]

Or they could miss out some stations on alternate hours to speed up the service, although I'd expect there would be local opposition to this.

A possible 3rd DMU should only be a short term solution though. I think electrification and integration into the Merseyrail network would be better in the long term for passengers and should help secure the future of the line.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Grabbing another 150 from South Wales to allow running through to Birkenhead North seems a lot, lot cheaper than installing 3rd rail / OHLE.....

There aren't any spare 150s in south Wales.

 

[Requeststop]

Is there some unsurmountable obstacle to running diesels into Birkenhead North?

DMU's used to run to Birkenhead North from the Wrexham - Bidston line, years back, using island platform as te turnaround. Also, there was a time that the service from Wrexham ran up the 3rd rails to New Brighton, using the Bidston West triangle towards Wallasey Village.

 

[tbtc]

I think electrification and integration into the Merseyrail network would be better in the long term for passengers and should help secure the future of the line

Electrification in CP6 would allow direct Wrexham - Liverpool services and would transform the line.

Whilst Birkenhead would be a more useful northern destination than Bidston, most people would still have to change onto a Lime Street bound EMU.

With the 507/508 replacements guaranteed to be bi-mode, there's a chance to electrify the Wrexham line (overhead) in a few years time (that we can't do now).

WIth a regular direct service into central Liverpool, that could open up Wrexham to the commuter belt in the way that many live in Chester and work in Liverpool.

 

[merlodlliw]

DMU's used to run to Birkenhead North from the Wrexham - Bidston line, years back, using island platform as te turnaround. Also, there was a time that the service from Wrexham ran up the 3rd rails to New Brighton, using the Bidston West triangle towards Wallasey Village.

Correct I used that service, the DMUs ran over the 3rd rails as they do now at Chester platform 7.

 

[eps200]

Running into Birkenhead north would have need the track reorganising to bring all three platforms back into use I don't see how you would do it without conflicting movements.
But the benefit would be quite substantial for connectivity instead of 2tph Liverpool and 2tph west Kirby as connections you have 4tph Liverpool and 2tph New Brighton. Not to mention the shiny new park and ride.

Acquiring a new DMU isn't worth it though if the money has to be spent get line speed improvements in where possible and build the case for electrification.
Ideally we would have this getting electrified in time for Merseyrail's train order and the two current units cascaded down to south Wales. But that would be joined up thinking which isn't allowed, also money.

 

[merlodlliw]

As we are talking the Bidston line, SWMBO went to a meeting in Llandudno Junction yesterday, I put her on the 0900 ex Wrexham, on her return she decided to get on the 1355 ex Junction & change at Shotton,(against my better judgement) on arrival at Wrexham platform four at 1525, I asked what was the train like(150),she said she was impressed, very clean & quiet,better than the last ones,when I went Ice Skating at Deeside,over 35 years ago
The day ticket was £19/10 return no cards,two singles £36/00

Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Running into Birkenhead north would have need the track reorganising to bring all three platforms back into use I don't see how you would do it without conflicting movements.
But the benefit would be quite substantial for connectivity instead of 2tph Liverpool and 2tph west Kirby as connections you have 4tph Liverpool and 2tph New Brighton. Not to mention the shiny new park and ride.

Acquiring a new DMU isn't worth it though if the money has to be spent get line speed improvements in where possible and build the case for electrification.
Ideally we would have this getting electrified in time for Merseyrail's train order and the two current units cascaded down to south Wales. But that would be joined up thinking which isn't allowed, also money.

Line speeds are a dismal 40mph south of Dee Marsh, 50mph north to Bidston (with a racing stretch of 55 for a couple of miles on the Down south of Heswall), plus very slow at each end.
A consistent 60mph on the open stretches would save enough time to get to Birkenhead North and back with a 2-train service.

 

[eps200]

Any idea what's restricting the speed? Line speed is an investment that never ends up redundant so no risk of wasting the funds. Getting to Birkenhead north should make the line more attractive for people to use and help build the case for electrification. "we added one stop and all these people appeared".
They are currently adding a cycle path over the dee mash wonder if there is any chance of work along side.

 

[The Informer]

1-the condition of track
2-the severe gradients
3-the stations are really close together
4-the curves

The ongoing renewal campaign will improve the quality of track between Shotton and Wrexham but the stop start service remains the same. By the time the unit accelerates to 40 its on the brakes again for the next stop!
Increasing the linespeed means increasing the wear and tear on the already unreliable 150's. linespeed enhancements will probably happen but where and when is anyone's guess!!!

 

[Holly]

1-the condition of track
2-the severe gradients
3-the stations are really close together
4-the curves
The ongoing renewal campaign will improve the quality of track between Shotton and Wrexham but the stop start service remains the same.

750vDC overhead light rail has to have significant attractions. On day interworking with the hoped-for Birkenhead "Streetcars" scheme.

The problem is - how to coexist with diesel hauled freight.

 

[tbtc]

1-the condition of track
2-the severe gradients
3-the stations are really close together
4-the curves

The ongoing renewal campaign will improve the quality of track between Shotton and Wrexham but the stop start service remains the same. By the time the unit accelerates to 40 its on the brakes again for the next stop!
Increasing the linespeed means increasing the wear and tear on the already unreliable 150's. linespeed enhancements will probably happen but where and when is anyone's guess!!!

Do you reckon an EMU would cope better with the timings, or is the answer to skip certain stops?

 

[Rhydgaled]

750vDC overhead light rail has to have significant attractions. On day interworking with the hoped-for Birkenhead "Streetcars" scheme.

The problem is - how to coexist with diesel hauled freight.

I would have thought other electric trains would be a bigger potential problem than diesel-hauled freight. I know the Wrexham - Bidston passenger service is pretty well isolated, but I do have concerns that installing OHLE other than the standard 25kvAC on parts of the national rail network may lead to future problems with extensions of 25kvAC (eg. a frieght route entirely electrified, but run with diesel traction because part is electrified using the wrong sort of electricity for the electric locos).

 

[eps200]

Do you reckon an EMU would cope better with the timings, or is the answer to skip certain stops?

EMUs as a rule accelerate and brake faster than DMUs so that would give us some sped to start, then the fact that a Mersey rail EMU is going to be a new or at least newer train so it's going to be lighter and have better motors so yet more gains.

It would be nice to have as much of the improvements in place it makes the case stronger.

interoperability with street cars isn't really advantageous they would be trams not a suburban metro, the wrexham train will head to Liverpool central.
Also i've worked on the docks and besides the old docks branch line non of the rail beds are remotely suitable for anything heavy.

What they should do is have interchange at Birkenhead north preferably run right into the station and connect to Hamilton square at the other end via woodside so all Wirral branches can interchange with it. Not sure if there would be any point running one around the haymarket tunnel and into central maybe even to rock ferry would be more in the centre but that's a dam old tunnel.

 

[Holly]

... Not sure if there would be any point running one around the haymarket tunnel and into central maybe even to rock ferry would be more in the centre but that's a dam old tunnel.

The real attraction of light rail to Rock Ferry is the longer term possibility of dual voltage long distance passenger trains there after (hah!) Crewe-Chester is electrified.

If the Wirral Waters "streetcars" scheme were to actually happen then Birkenhead North will indeed become one of the interchanges (or the only interchange) with Merseyrail, and hopefully with Wrexham service.

Another possibility is for Wrexham trains to run nonstop from Birkenhead North to Liverpool and turn back at James Street. This is technically feasible with DMUs because the necessary part of James Street was constructed to engineering standards for steam trains.

 

[eps200]

That would be worth another DMU if one can be found terminate it at platform 2 which is currently out of use. May need improved ventilation at James street and Hamilton square but it would be handy, shame no one got this added to the works a James street.

As for street cars saw this a while back
http://www.applrguk.co.uk/files/taut1004wirralwaters.pdf

Interesting stuff especially

Our current proposal would run through the planned development, ensuring that no new building is more than a short stroll from a tramstop. We will then upgrade the existing Wirral Tramway alignment and share it with the heritage operation to reach interchanges at Hamilton Square Merseyrail station and at Woodside Ferry. We expect the line to become an integral part of the Wirral Waters development and the natural way for those living and working in the area to travel. As it says on an apartment building in Portland ‘come by Streetcar’

Awful lot of potential because this town was built with trams the artical talks about reaching seacombe and the park. the smart card payments are on the way so interchange with trains and even the ferry will seem more normal.
Eventually it could run to rock ferry, and along the front to new Brighton also loved the suggestion of using rebuilt or replica old stock would add some character.
I cant see a benefit of running long distance stuff beyond new platforms east of Birkenhead central unless it can reach Liverpool but that requires more capacity than will ever be available in the tunnel and all sorts of horribly expensive work on the loop.
I would see long distance stuff going chester - hooton - rock ferry - central

Also since we are on the topic of tenuous tangent to the north Wales line, if it was electrified what happens to the Conway valley? that runs under the wires into llandudno I guess.