My ideas to limit Split Ticketing

[Pen Mill]

Can we agree that it's plain unfair for some customers, through no fault of theirs, to be paying more than others?

I don't agree, people have the ultimate choice , to buy or not to buy.I don't believe that the vast majority of commuters won't have the best deal available.
Granted , casual walk-up travellers will have to rely on the ticket office but most vendors will look at options for them.

Life is a basket of anomalies and we all live with them. You're making ticket-splitting sound like MPs'expense fiddling , it is not.
It is a simple case of "willing seller/willing buyer" .
The press think it's unfair on customers , fine, that sells papers , they have highlighted it , everyone's aware of it and we'll see if anything is done. I already have my answer , it won't be.

I'm not a frequent traveller but do maybe 50/70 trips a year.
I don't actively seek split tickets because I have a feel of what a "price for the journey" is.
It's only when that seems out of kilta that I look for alternatives , it's called initiative.One thing is certain , I've never travelled without a valid ticket.
I've also never travelled without researching the cost beforehand.
Having said all that, I've had a look at the journey I make most regularly and I can save 10% by splitting !!!!! and that's the same train with the same TOC.
The reason is that part of my journey becomes "Super off-peak"

I radically diasgree with your moral standpoint. It doesn't have any substance .It's entirely in the hands of the TOCs and thanks for saving me a few more quid !

 

[yorkie]

To the public the railway is a single 'shop' with the complete range of products but staff will only sell one item for a stated purpose.

Not true. Staff should sell any item(s) you ask for.

Some customers have realised that savings can be made, providing some obtuse and semi-secret shop rules are followed,

Condition 19 is not semi-secret, and is not obtuse. It's common knowledge that it exists, though few have read it in detail and fully understand it - but the information is there for those who want to read it!

by self assembling products similar to 'top range' items from cheaper ones by pretending to buy them for their intended purpose.

There is no need to pretend!

Assembly can be tricky, the finished item will not be as strong and may do the job perfectly or prove far more expensive. Most customers pay full price as they don't know any different or don't know/understand the rules or fear the potentially serious results of breaking them.

It's not very difficult but if someone can't cope with it then that's down to them. I'm sure there are people who don't understand many other things in life and pay more as a result.

Can we agree that it's plain unfair for some customers, through no fault of theirs, to be paying more than others?

I am not sure we can agree because it is not clear what the unfairness is, and what the 'correct' amount is.

If you look at my Par to Glasgow example, what is the 'fair' price for a return ticket travelling on the 0928 Par-Glasgow and the 0900 Glasgow-Par? An Off Peak Return used to be valid but it now requires an Anytime at £420. Splitting reduces it to £208.60, that's less than the through Child fare.

Now give me the 'fair' price for a return ticket travelling from Bodmin Parkway to Edinburgh on the exact same trains? An Off Peak Return remains valid so the current price is £190.20.

Would you resolve that anomaly by increasing the cost of Par-Bodmin Parkway to over £100, and increasing the cost of Edinburgh-Glasgow to over £100? As you are being charged an additional £230 due to the Par-Bodmin and Glasgow-Edinburgh portions of the journey being before 0930.

Or do you have an alternative solution? If so, let's hear it.

(Here's one - but the TOCs won't do it as they are less efficient than BR - put all the restrictions for SVRs back to how they were under BR, and all the SSRs that existed under BR to be re-instated. At a stroke this would massively reduce many of the reasons for "splitting")

I suggest that there's a moral question for those paying less even if I'm not sure exactly what it is, nor can I say what the 'right' price should be. It's late and having composed this I'll post it and see what can be made of it - a work in progress.

If you cannot say what the right price would be for the examples given, then I am not sure you have any viable solution to the current problems, other than to accept that people should "split" their tickets so that they only pay appropriately priced rates for the part of the journey that is considered "peak".

 

[WelshBluebird]

Can we agree that it's plain unfair for some customers, through no fault of theirs, to be paying more than others?

But isn't that always going to be the case?

My parents pay more for most train journeys than I do, simply because I have a 16-25 railcard, they obviously do not.

If you buy an advance ticket you would be paying less than others.

If I turn up at an unmanned station to travel on a direct train to another unmanned station, then there is at least a chance that I won't pay anything for the journey (if there are no chances to pay) whereas someone else doing exactly the same journey may have to pay (say if the guard only covers half the train).

Etc etc.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have no problems with split ticketing, I have done it myself many times (often to avoid XC priced peak tickets), but it would be a whole lot simpler if there was just one rule - the train must stop at the station where you transfer from one ticket to another. No easements for season tickets, zonal tickets or any other combination - one simple rule - the train MUST stop to change from one ticket to another. (I'll make an exception for "Boundary Zone" tickets in London as there is no such place and this is a fairly established "local" procedure which everyone seems to understand). This would make it a whole lot easier for staff and passengers alike.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed it is unfair that some will pay more than others.

In a way; it is similar to buying a computer - you can go down PC World and pay over the odds for a fully assembled machine or you can put some effort in and buy the components individually and build it yourself to save a few £. Should retailers there be forced to adjust their prices? Is it fair that a technologically competent person pays less for something than Joe Public?

Similar but not quite the same because while buying the individual components (the split tickets) may be cheaper, in the case of the computer one is already built and ready to go and the other isn't. In the case of the train, the package is identical, in most cases.

 

[MK Tom]

Can the people who are against splitting and say it should be banned tell me why I should pay £28 for a Milton Keynes - Nottingham journey when I can get one from MK to Tamworth and another from there to Nottingham for around £8 each? Each of those fares is a one-company only fare which they've set themselves; they're not sharing it with anyone, so where is the other £12 going if I get the through ticket? In this specific case some of it goes to Virgin because you can't specify one operator for only a section of a journey. So how am I doing anything wrong there?

The other thing is what's the difference between doing that and simply visiting Tamworth for its own sake, then deciding whilst there to continue on to Nottingham? Besides, whenever I've done the above I've usually had enough time on the way back to pop out for a stroll around Tamworth anyway. It's a nice place

I've never made any attempt to hide my split ticket journeys from staff at all. I put my tickets in my railcard wallet in order of use so when the guard takes out my MK-Birmingham ticket to scribble on it the Birmingham-Telford one is right there under it. Back in December I walked into MKC and asked for ''a super off-peak day return to Crewe and an off-peak day return from Crewe to Upholland''. Aside from forgetting what the second part's destination was he had no issue with selling me that. I've done that many times. I can't remember what the day return is from MKC to Upholland, but it's a hell of a lot more than the £18:00 I payed for those two tickets.

 

[Pen Mill]

I'm fascinated by this topic and by the belief that pricing can be simplified so that the poor cheated public feel lovingly comfortable again.

So I doodled away and came up with a few options (not all !) for a trip from Yeovil to London which I do fairly regularly.

EDIT : All prices are railcard discounted!

If you just "turned up" at Junction you would be offered route 1 which is a through route with no changes.
If you turned up at Pen Mill , you would possibly be offered route 3 but these would be expensive anytime singles.
The best offer price wise is route 2 which involves 2 physical changes and can only be done with 2 tickets.
This would not be offered as a matter of course.

What I'm attempting to illustrate is that the place is a minefield without any of your perceived skull-duggery. If I choose to , which I don't , I could probably find some decent splits even without Advance tickets.

The way I perceive your aim is a single price for a single journey. All these journeys are Yeovil-London and I've actually done them all purely out of my interest which a part of is Rail travel. As head of ATOC what would your price be ?

 

[RJ]

Just in case anyone missed my question, it refers to a technique used, involving a poster who makes sustained controversial points in a very educated and sincere manner with the intention of getting enthusiasts frothed up about an often comically trivial matter. Even if talking absolute nonsense, they persist until someone puts an end to it or the thread eventually fizzles out. Once banned, a new ID is registered, process repeats.

One such example would be arguing that putting restrictions on an ALR is a good thing for the passenger. One person against everyone else, which went on for hundreds of posts. Or saying that it's morally wrong to split tickets.

 

[hantsman1205]

I don't agree, people have the ultimate choice , to buy or not to buy.I don't believe that the vast majority of commuters won't have the best deal available.
Granted , casual walk-up travellers will have to rely on the ticket office but most vendors will look at options for them.

Life is a basket of anomalies and we all live with them. You're making ticket-splitting sound like MPs'expense fiddling , it is not.
It is a simple case of "willing seller/willing buyer" .
The press think it's unfair on customers , fine, that sells papers , they have highlighted it , everyone's aware of it and we'll see if anything is done. I already have my answer , it won't be.

I'm not a frequent traveller but do maybe 50/70 trips a year.
I don't actively seek split tickets because I have a feel of what a "price for the journey" is.
It's only when that seems out of kilta that I look for alternatives , it's called initiative.One thing is certain , I've never travelled without a valid ticket.
I've also never travelled without researching the cost beforehand.
Having said all that, I've had a look at the journey I make most regularly and I can save 10% by splitting !!!!! and that's the same train with the same TOC.
The reason is that part of my journey becomes "Super off-peak"

I radically diasgree with your moral standpoint. It doesn't have any substance .It's entirely in the hands of the TOCs and thanks for saving me a few more quid !

I have to agree with all of the post above, I only got into Splits/advances/cheap tickets because,

A Petrol/insurance/wear and tear costs
B Cost
C I like a drink
D I'm a tight wad
E initiative (learnt that in the Army)

Goggle is your friend and now I'm a converted rail fan, that's money that the railways would have never had from me before.

I now look at bus/rail/ferry/tram if I don't need the car.

 

[cuccir]

One major point that hasn't (I think) been raised in this thread: most splits result in some sort of restriction to the ticket option. It might be restrictions by route, operator or time, but there is usually some level of extra restriction that the splits bring in. In other words, the through ticket and the split tickets are almost never the same products: why, therefore, should they take the same price?

I have no problems with split ticketing, I have done it myself many times (often to avoid XC priced peak tickets), but it would be a whole lot simpler if there was just one rule - the train must stop at the station where you transfer from one ticket to another. No easements for season tickets, zonal tickets or any other combination - one simple rule - the train MUST stop to change from one ticket to another. (I'll make an exception for "Boundary Zone" tickets in London as there is no such place and this is a fairly established "local" procedure which everyone seems to understand). This would make it a whole lot easier for staff and passengers alike.

I'd agree with this, I can imagine it's a huge headaches for staff.

 

[RJ]

Split ticketing is not exactly rocket science. It shouldn't pose a headache for staff who can be bothered to learn about ticketing properly. Dealing with irregularities is part of the job and there are procedures in place for when a member of staff can't work it out.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....(I'll make an exception for "Boundary Zone" tickets in London as there is no such place and this is a fairly established "local" procedure which everyone seems to understand)....

Boundary zone fares are an extension (or excess if you prefer) for a travelcard and are thus considered the same ticket, Condition 19 does not come in to it.

 

[Flamingo]

Removed as misread / misunderstood original post...

 

[yorkie]

Flamingo - there isn't any such requirement for staff to offer splits. RJ is merely saying that staff should understand the rules (e.g. that one season + any number of non-seasons means the train doesn't have to call etc).

It's down to the customer to ask for what they want and do the research.

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo - there isn't any such requirement for staff to offer splits. RJ is merely saying that staff should understand the rules (e.g. that one season + any number of non-seasons means the train doesn't have to call etc).

It's down to the customer to ask for what they want and do the research.

OK, sorry, my bad, I thought he was saying that staff should be proactive in offering splits

 

[Crossover]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

As others have said, I really can't see where you are coming from with this. There is no misrepresentation as far as I can see, just being thoughtful.

I regularly split ticketed when at uni/on placement as it reduces the cost (with railcard) by about £4-5 per return journey. On a ticket that cost about £25 split, it is a %age saving not to be sniffed at! (I worked this one out before really coming on the forum and seeing the advice here, so it doesn't take much working out!)
Better still with this, I was splitting at Manchester where a change of train was necessary anyway, so try find a way to stop that one!

I did once get asked by the staff (I think it was at MKC when I was on placement down that way) if I just wanted the through ticket for my journey (also another where the split was at Piccadilly and necessitating a change of train too) - I mentioned why I was doing it and they agreed it was a good option to take. On another occasion elsewhere, I was advised there are quite a few splits that reduce ticket costs by a decent amount.

Another problem with some through tickets is they can be priced for a particular flow in mind. A recent one I advised on was a Yorkshire to Birmingham, travelling outbound in the morning peak and returning the same day. The only Anytime ticket for this is a period return (outbound valid for 5 days and return for 30 days)

As the journey being made was a day return, it was a ton of validity that wasn't required. Splitting into 3 separate Anytime Day Returns reduced the cost from £90 (undiscounted) to just under £47, and that was just with straight splits and didn't take a huge deal of finding.

Re Birmingham to Bristol splitting at Cheltenham I was making this journey on the return portion of off peak returns, on a day when there was a bus replacemt from Birmingham to Cheltenham.

Someone official looking announced in the chaotic bus queues at New st that anyone for Bristol should get the train to Reading and change there

Presumably anyone with split tickets couldnt take up that option?

In that case, possibly not and is a risk of split ticketing, I guess

 

[Yew]

I stuggle to see your reasons for this vendetta against splitting?

Many journeys have more than one route available, by splitting you limit yourself to one of these routes, hence you play less, for less validity. Exactly like advance tickets

 

[Kentish Paul]

Hi all,

Ashford(Int) to Yeovil Junction off peak return = £76.60. (via London/ not underground). Ashford International to Southamton Central route Barnham, off peak return, £23.70. Southamton Central to Yeovil Junction (change Salisbury) off peak return = £26.90. Total = £50.60.

OK a longer journey by an hour but if in not in a hurry so what. All legal and if to satisfy some strange new laws then break at Southamton for lunch as you have to change trains anyway so buy your second ticket at Southamton. Also the return lets you go Yeovil - Salisbury - Southamton - Brighton - Ashford. (Marshlink lives)!

 

[gordonthemoron]

One major point that hasn't (I think) been raised in this thread: most splits result in some sort of restriction to the ticket option. It might be restrictions by route, operator or time, but there is usually some level of extra restriction that the splits bring in. In other words, the through ticket and the split tickets are almost never the same products: why, therefore, should they take the same price?

I agree, I often do Stansted-Nottingham, through ticket is more expensive than splitting at Peterborough/Grantham as it allows travel via Leicester. Noone in their right mind would travel via Leicester as it takes longer

 

[Flamingo]

I stuggle to see your reasons for this vendetta against splitting?

Many journeys have more than one route available, by splitting you limit yourself to one of these routes, hence you play less, for less validity. Exactly like advance tickets

It's the people who want the split price, but the same validity that are the problem in my experience...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's the people who want the split price, but the same validity that are the problem in my experience...

Ditto.

 

[cuccir]

It's the people who want the split price, but the same validity that are the problem in my experience...

Ditto.

Out of interest, then, how common is that? Would you come across someone in this situation daily, weekly, monthly?

 

[OwlMan]

If the TOCs raise prices for the shorter journeys to stop splits that are cheaper will they also reduce the price for shorter journeys when the splits are more expensive?
I somehow think not

Peter

 

[yorkie]

Out of interest, then, how common is that? Would you come across someone in this situation daily, weekly, monthly?

I hope Flamingo won't mind me answering for him but I doubt a day goes by that he doesn't find someone who has split at Didcot on a train that is non-stop Reading-Swindon. Flamingo can correct me if I'm wrong

I'd guess the WYPTE boundary stations may be a problem for kwvr45

 

[RJ]

Flamingo - there isn't any such requirement for staff to offer splits. RJ is merely saying that staff should understand the rules (e.g. that one season + any number of non-seasons means the train doesn't have to call etc).

It's down to the customer to ask for what they want and do the research.

Thanks, that's precisely what I meant. It's quite shameful to be in a job and not have a clue whether or not a passenger is right or wrong. It'd be like me going into a Maths exam without learning my calculus. Poor training is a bad excuse too - I put in the hours in my own time to make sure I learnt everything properly, a work ethic that has spilled over into my working life.

It's a poor show for supposed ticket inspection professionals to declare the three rules of splitting and basic season ticket principles such as unlimited break of journey, as too complex to understand.

 

[Pen Mill]

Out of interest, then, how common is that? Would you come across someone in this situation daily, weekly, monthly?

I cancelled my post in the same vein as yours. I thought it was an odd thing to say , why would someone who knew about splitting not have a pretty good idea about T&Cs ?
Having read Yorkie's post it would seem that it does happen regularly ho-hum , people,people !

 

[starrymarkb]

Just in case anyone missed my question, it refers to a technique used, involving a poster who makes sustained controversial points in a very educated and sincere manner with the intention of getting enthusiasts frothed up about an often comically trivial matter. Even if talking absolute nonsense, they persist until someone puts an end to it or the thread eventually fizzles out. Once banned, a new ID is registered, process repeats.

One such example would be arguing that putting restrictions on an ALR is a good thing for the passenger. One person against everyone else, which went on for hundreds of posts. Or saying that it's morally wrong to split tickets.

A Troll in other words

 

[Robsignals]

Well, I'll say again no one is doing anything illegal or breaking any rules. It's a problem in a long thread that the OP ends up repeating them-self, I've learnt a lot and maybe don't know what I'm talking about so will leave it there. Ticketing is a mess, good luck and happy splitting.

 

[HSTEd]

This reminds me of my father who has an Eastern Region pass and purchased a full fare season ticket from somewhere like Netherfield into nottingham for some reason because he couldn't go all the way, he was working at the railway computing centre at Nottingham at the time.

He asked if he had to only use trains that stopped there, b ut was told that this restriction didn't apply for staff at the time.

But that was more than a decade ago now.

 

[Flamingo]

Out of interest, then, how common is that? Would you come across someone in this situation daily, weekly, monthly?

If I'm working a peak(ish) train from London that doesn't stop at Didcot and DON'T have somebody on a split ticket, I'm surprised. I will expect to find three or four, season-tickets usually. This is despite 1. announcing before leaving London splits at Didcot are not valid, 2. announcing after leaving London splits at Didcot are not valid, 3. announcing before arriving at Reading the train will not call at Didcot, split tickets are not valid, and if I get the chance, 4. announcing before locking the doors at Reading the train does not stop at Didcot, split tickets are not valid.

So, after three (or even four) announcements that the combination is not valid, I will still see three or four people, usually season-ticket holders, so they do it every day. The invariably say either I'm a jobsworth, that nobody has ever charged them before, or they catch this train every night and it always stopped at Didcot.

Just to add, this will be in two / three carriages of the 5/6 cars in STD class. It doesn't seem to be a First Class thing, and it is difficult to get through more than two carriages between Reading and Swindon, as the arguments are usually time consuming.