My ideas to limit Split Ticketing

[Greenback]

For rail tickets they are currently guaranteed to get away with it.

I don't understand what they are getting away with? A cheaper fare?

Thanks for the PM by the way.

 

[telstarbox]

I would also be interested to read the PM if that's possible Robsignals.

 

[Robsignals]

I think, like quite a lot of people, I often end up splitting tickets 'accidentally' - because my plans change, or I wish to make a triangular journey and not buy 3* singles.
I can only imagine the complaints if they have to start working out excesses to all the people who used to just buy additional tickets!

Maybe all right if tickets were bought more than an hour apart say, unless people abuse it.

 

[sheff1]

...and endemic low-level public dishonesty.

So a TOC offers fares ... anyone who buys them is dishonest

What if I bought the ticket from Darlington to York, got off the train, bought the next ticket from York to London then got on the next train? Do I have to be subjected to a strip search to see whether I might already have used a ticket for half my journey?

No, you have to provide evidence that you reside in York

 

[JamesRowden]

I would expect the Regulator/DfT to prevent blatant exploitation of the system, as they already should do. Revising the present system to eliminate inconsistencies comes down to altering fares...upwards.

The DfT cannot regulate what they give the TOCs freedom to decide (e.g. off-peak tickets).

Maybe the solution is as simple as having all tickets as advance tickets that passengers can buy from the station just before they catch the train (as is the system in Germany). The TOC running the service would decide the ticket price for each journey on each train (just like on buses) (or the DfT could decide). This system would also work with smart cards. If there was disruption (and the ticket was bought before the disruption) the tickets could be allowed on other services. If someone missed their train they could trade it for a cheaper or same price ticket or buy a more expensive one (or part of a ticket if it was a connection). This system would also mean that a TOC could easily make sure that money could not be saved using split ticketing. Another advantage is that a buyer might be able to see how busy the trains that they might catch might be (or even reserve a seat [but a fine might need to be introduced for people who reserve a seat and do not use it]).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think all motorists know to shop around, it's not as if there's a 'National Insure' site which claims to have all the quotes you need. A better analogy would be two identical drivers/cars/journeys/insurers but one has cheaper insurance because they didn't fill in the Proposal form honestly. If they make a claim they may get a nasty shock or they might get away with it. For rail tickets they are currently guaranteed to get away with it.

So you've never seen adverts for insurers claiming they have the best deals? That's very strange, I don't even need car insurance and I can think of a few with little thought.

And why would someone being dishonest make it a better analogy? Who is dishonest when perfectly valid split tickets are bought?

The information people need is out there to be found, but most people would rather let someone else do the leg work for them. Why do you think comparison websites (insurance, shopping, bingo, etc) are so popular?

 

[JamesRowden]

A better analogy would be two identical drivers/cars/journeys/insurers but one has cheaper insurance because they didn't fill in the Proposal form honestly. If they make a claim they may get a nasty shock or they might get away with it. For rail tickets they are currently guaranteed to get away with it.

WRONG

There is no dishonesty involved in split-ticketing. It is simply taking the best legal and honest deal available.

 

[tannedfrog]

I'd be happy to stop splitting if all "through" fares were adjusted downwards to RPI + 0% calculated since the point of privatisation, that would be fair

 

[Robsignals]

I don't understand what they are getting away with? A cheaper fare?

Yes, cheaper than someone who states the full journey they're making which is unfair.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What if I am holding an Advance ticket bought at a fraction of the fare the Anytime ticket holder next to me has paid? Is that fair? Should I be arrested for fraud?

Advance tickets encourage split ticketing to some extent, if I was travelling from the North West to the South Coast I wouldn't go for a through ticket if it was possible to get a cheap Advance to Euston and a separate ticket for onward travel. Would that be prohibited under your rules?

Answered in http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1182743&postcount=42.

London is an exception, many journeys allow 70+ minutes to cross anyway so go for it!

 

[telstarbox]

But the splits are available to anyone who wants to do that journey, subject to the T&Cs. Split tickets aren't some 'insider' secret - they've been recommended on websites such as MoneySavingExpert and the Guardian.

 

[Robsignals]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

 

[ainsworth74]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey

It does? I've booked split tickets online in one transaction, I've been to a booking office and bought split tickets in one transaction. It is clear to anyone who checks my online account or the booking office clerk what I'm doing so in what way am I misrepresenting the journey being made?

 

[wellhouse]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

Any unfairness in the fares structure is at the expense of Passengers rather than TOCs.

The Rules about splitting are arcane, and only the well-informed are advised to use split tickets in compliance with the NCoC to secure a cheaper fare.

To suggest this means splitting should be banned, or complicated Breaks of Journey be enforced seems odd to say the least; there are many situations where a passenger may use more than one ticket for a journey for reasons other than to save money, and any ban on splits would cause gross inconvenience.

Examples;

1. Commuter holds a Season Ticket from Hudderfield to Leeds, but has a theatre visit to Manchester one evening. They purchase a return ticket Huddersfield-Manchester to cover the extra journey, and travel after work from Leeds to Manchester on a through service using both tickets. Why should this be banned?

2. The fastest journey from Wakefield Westgate to Stockport is normally via Sheffield, but as no through fare is offered, the only way to travel this route is to split tickets. Why should this be banned?

3. A passenger from Manchester plans a trip to Hull, Filey and Scarborough, using an East Yorkshire Round Robin and a Return ticket from Manchester to Selby. The suggested ban on splits would forbid staying on the train from Manchester through to Hull. Why should this be banned?

 

[MikeWh]

When the rules for split ticketing were originally formulated there were few cases where it was worthwhile. The big one is where someone has a season ticket and wishes to go beyond one end of said ticket. Because season ticket holders are the lifeblood of the railway it was decided that this would be ok, even if the train didn't stop. In the early days most split tickets were just two tickets.

The restriction that the train must call at the split point is inconvenient enough in many cases to justify the discount in exchange for reduced flexibility. The problem is where the rule about season tickets has been (incorrectly) extended so that as long as only one ticket is a season the train doesn't need to stop at any split points. This has been further abused since the savings available made it woirthwhile to buy a 7 day season for a small chunk of the journey so that a fast train could be used.

I firmly believe that few people will have any complaints if the rule is tightened so that a non-stop switch can only take place at either boundary of the only season ticket. This is surely what was intended when the concession was introduced decades (centuries?) ago.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

The railway sets prices for travel to and from a given place, it matters not to the railway why the passenger is going, only that they are.

If I state I am going from Manchester to Stoke and from Stoke to Birmingham, and from Birmingham to Cardiff, it does not matter to the railway why I am going to Stoke, or Birmingham, or Cardiff. If I buy those three tickets and I go to Stoke, and then I continue to Birmingham, and then I go on to Cardiff, have I not done as I said I would? How exactly have I misrepresented the journey?

 

[snail]

London is an exception, many journeys allow 70+ minutes to cross anyway so go for it!

Ok, so what about Manchester, where a TPE Advance + local ticket is usually much cheaper than a combined through ticket. What I want to know is at what point does split ticketing become unfair and fraudulent? Are you saying it's ok to combine an Advance and other ticket but not two non-Advance tickets? Your rules seem very arbitrary.

 

[Class 33]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

I often use split ticketting if I need/wish to travel somewhere long distance at short notice. I'm certainly not commiting any crime or fraud!!! I split ticket rather than buy a standard through ticket, because the standard through ticket is just so darn expensive and over priced! For instance a standard walk-on Off Peak Bristol-Birmingham is £48 return. No way would I pay that price! But by split ticketing at Cheltenham I get the fare down to a more reasonable £30 which I am content in paying for travelling at short notice with no advance booking. If I had no choice but to pay £48 for this journey then I wouldn't bother, I'd go by National Express or Megabus coaches instead and these companies would get my money. Arriva Cross Country won't be getting my money at those prices. But by using the split ticket method, Arriva Cross Country get my £30. I'm sure there are lots of other people out there who take this sort of approach. So is this really a bad thing for the train operators?

I book my split ticketting travel online and have done for years. But if I'm travelling at really short notice I buy the tickets at the ticket office at the station, as it's not possible to do at the ticket machines. Some of the clerks do look a little surprised when for example I ask for a day return to Cheltenham, and also a day return from Cheltenham to Birmingham. But never had any problems. Of course they will know full well hat I am getting the journey for a lot less than if I just asked for a day return to Birmingham. Sometimes though I give all my ticket to the conductor when he/she comes round and some of them have gaven me a bit of a suspicious frown, whilst others have even said "That's the way to do it. Makes it cheaper doesn't it.".



I'm all for ticket splitting to be made much more public. Better still train operators should revise their fares, so that ticket splitting isn't necessary to get cheaper fares. For example if an A-B fare is £8 and a B-C fare is £22 then the A-C fare should be £30, NOT £48!!!

 

[RJ]

When the rules for split ticketing were originally formulated there were few cases where it was worthwhile. The big one is where someone has a season ticket and wishes to go beyond one end of said ticket. Because season ticket holders are the lifeblood of the railway it was decided that this would be ok, even if the train didn't stop. In the early days most split tickets were just two tickets.

The restriction that the train must call at the split point is inconvenient enough in many cases to justify the discount in exchange for reduced flexibility. The problem is where the rule about season tickets has been (incorrectly) extended so that as long as only one ticket is a season the train doesn't need to stop at any split points. This has been further abused since the savings available made it woirthwhile to buy a 7 day season for a small chunk of the journey so that a fast train could be used.

I firmly believe that few people will have any complaints if the rule is tightened so that a non-stop switch can only take place at either boundary of the only season ticket. This is surely what was intended when the concession was introduced decades (centuries?) ago.

It's a way to save huge amounts of money. Nothing wrong with that!

 

[tannedfrog]

Re Birmingham to Bristol splitting at Cheltenham I was making this journey on the return portion of off peak returns, on a day when there was a bus replacemt from Birmingham to Cheltenham.

Someone official looking announced in the chaotic bus queues at New st that anyone for Bristol should get the train to Reading and change there

Presumably anyone with split tickets couldnt take up that option?

 

[neilmc]

I can't see for the life of me how split ticketing could be prevented or even that it's necessary to do so. That it's a sensible option at all is the fault of the rail ticketing system as a whole and individual TOC policies; if I catch the bus into Manchester Piccadilly I don't save money by buying separate tickets to Withington, Rusholme and the University!

If you take an example from Cross Country, where ridiculous peak hour limitations have been introduced, the advance fares are very poor and there are plenty of intermediate stops betwen major cities - Manchester to Birmingham for example is a prime split-ticketing route.

How could you prevent this?

1. Prevent booking offices and online sites from selling two tickets at the same time where an obvious split is taking place e.g. Manchester-Stoke then Stoke-Birmingham. OK, then I'd do what I did when I once thought that this might cause a problem, namely buy Stoke to Birmingham online then buy Manchester to Stoke at the station immediately prior to travel.

2. Prevent customers using two tickets for the same train at all. Now I do remember something like this from years ago when the Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield service was a "Paytrain" (i.e. all tickets were sold by the conductor) and, as South Yorkshire had vastly subsidised public transport through the rates, canny passengers would try to "split" at Darton but the conductor wouldn't allow it. This would depend on the service - in the case of Manchester-Birmingham I'd still consider it worth catching, say, the London train to Stoke then changing to the Birmingham train there. Two trains, two companies. And how would you stop splitters at a busy city station from leaving the train at one door and rejoining the same train at another?

And how do you stop split ticketing using junction stations where you have to change trains anyway? Have your hand stamped at exit so you can't catch any another train within a specified time?

Yes I think the only option to completely eradicate split ticketing is:

3. You can only travel anywhere with a permit from the police and have to take the exact train specified thereon, show your national identity card at each stage of the journey and each station would be barriered, locked down and patrolled by armed officers to ensure complete compliance. Well I'm sure that would please at least one or two TOC staff.

 

[sheff1]

You can only travel anywhere with a permit from the police and have to take the exact train specified thereon, show your national identity card at each stage of the journey and each station would be barriered, locked down and patrolled by armed officers to ensure complete compliance. Well I'm sure that would please at least one or two TOC staff.

What an excellent idea. I am sure that there are some unemployed former workers from the old Eastern Block who could provide first hand experience of operating such a system. G4S would be happy to take them on.

 

[soil]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair.

Does it?

So if I want to reach C from A, which requires me to go through B, I'm misrepresenting the journey by buying two tickets?

 

[p123]

Yes, most ticket offices are obliged to sell you any ticket you ask for, although it's not such a good idea to buy such tickets from a ticket office if it is blatantly obvious that you are using it as an anomaly.

In some places it's encouraged... there's a station in Glasgow that will remain unnamed (not a particularly small one either!) where for a certain journey I make every now and then they automatically give the split tickets without even asking for them!

 

[jon0844]

Two near identical cars of the same age are side by side in a traffic queue, both have a male driver around thirty years old and they happen to live in the same neighbourhood. The first driver trusted his insurance company to provide the best deal, the second did some research by comparing quotes from different companies. The second man pays less for his insurance, but both are equally insured. Did the first man get tricked by the insurance company? Or is it his own fault for not looking around?

For those who don't get the analogy, the first man went to the ticket office and asked for a ticket from A to B, the second man did some research and found a workable split and asked for them instead.

However, most people know you can shop around for insurance, gas, electricity, phone etc.

Most people probably know you can save money by buying advance tickets, whether for a train, plane or coach.

I bet most people don't know you can split tickets or how to do it without getting caught out (and therefore still don't chance it even if they read a story on the BBC, let alone a forum like this).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've aleady dismissed some of the posts on this thread as becoming surreal, and it is getting worse:

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

Can we be quite clear, that by taking two or more tickets to form a single journey is frequently more expensive than buying an end to end ticket?
I have often travelled with ticket combinations which might have been less expensive had they been bought from start to finish (or some other valid combination which is inapplicable due to my staggered diary planning).
Buying two or more tickets (to complete one journey) is not, normally likely to be a consequence of, nor be construed as, a misrepresentation of anything. Its a property of operating a retail market in contracts of various types which can be combined or not, and which can be combined at a higher or lower cost than other contracts or combinations of contracts. (Some people here comparing financial gains or losses with contract terms or ethics should spend a week on the Stock Markets to clarify those 3 distinctions. There shouldn't be any confusion after that. All three are fruitful subjects for discussion, but they are philosophically, legally and pragmatically quite distinct.).
Any normative evaluation of a passenger's actions (including a statement when buying tickets) can be derived from their actions, but not from the seller's policy.

I was asked earlier in this thread, in response to me stating that ATOC have already sought to curtail 'split ticketing', to provide the details of that request. I regret that I am not at liberty to do so though can confirm that it was within the past 12 months. And as I said then, it was declined.

Its also amusing to see references to 'the Regulator' in this context. What Regulator would that be?

 

[sequenci]

Does it?

So if I want to reach C from A, which requires me to go through B, I'm misrepresenting the journey by buying two tickets?

It isn't misrepresentation in the slightest. It's simply exploiting ticketing rules. Nothing wrong about that at all.

 

[telstarbox]

Or as economists would have it "responding rationally".

 

[hairyhandedfool]

However, most people know you can shop around for insurance, gas, electricity, phone etc.

Most people probably know you can save money by buying advance tickets, whether for a train, plane or coach.

I bet most people don't know you can split tickets or how to do it without getting caught out (and therefore still don't chance it even if they read a story on the BBC, let alone a forum like this).

But most people won't try to find out if they can and there is the difference.

 

[Pen Mill]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

I was planning a journey from A to C and was looking at the various journey & timing options. During the course of this exercise , I discovered that a ticket from A to B and then B to C was £16 and the direct ticket was £30.
When I bought the tickets , I explained it to the vendor and he said oh yes !

 

[yorkie]

I know splitting is legal currently but it does involve deliberately misrepresenting the journey really being made to get a lower price than someone who honestly states their journey, that is not fair. It reduces TOC revenue and sooner or later as it keeps growing action will have to be taken to stop it, even the DfT will have to agree it can't be allowed to grow unchecked.

This is the most absurd post I've ever read. If a passenger wishes to take the 0850 from Whitby, changing at Middlesbrough and York, to Sheffield, they are asked to pay 104 pounds.

The only way to reduce the through fare is to wait until the next train which is around 4 hours later.

If a passenger decides instead to have a day out in York, buys a return to York, and while there decides to go to Sheffield anyway, they will have effectively 'split' their tickets at York, and the fare is reduced to less than one THIRD of the fare.

Should that person, therefore, be charged a higher fare in your opinion than the Whitby to York & York to Sheffield Off Peak Day Return tickets?