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McNulty Report

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313103

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£26, 000 is very good regarding the pay. My dad was a teacher and he only got slightly more than that. I'm sure you struggle but I'd love that salary
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bus drivers earn peanuts surely train drivers pay won't be so reduced :o

Yes i agree £26,000 is a nice salary, however it is only nice if you have it. If i lose my job, i wont be on £26,000 i will be relying on handouts from Government (something i have never done) probably until i reach retirement age.
I also agree that Bus Drivers are paid poorly especially those outside of the metropolis that is London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There also seems to be the assumption here that DOO means that there are no ticket inspections on board, such as the early-90s model employed by BR in the South East. On many routes with guards (eg. SWT routes with non-commercial guards or the urban sections of routes such as the Cross-City) this is already the case! However ticket examiners could work these trains such as those who operate on the electric routes in the Glasgow area. On a number of routes this could lead to an improvement of revenue collection as the guard wouldn't have to mess about with the doors!

I am not a regular traveller on DOO lines but two examples recently show that lots of trains have no ticket collection. Recently i travelled to Oxford from Paddington to attend a funeral. The train departed from platform 1 at Paddington No barriers at either end, and even if it depart from a another platform all you need to do is stand on the bridge and just wait for platform to come up and then just board without having to go through a ticket barrier. No ticket collection was done on board, and there was only one person at Oxford. The same for the return journey i hasten to add as well.

Travel 2 was on Monday this week just a quick hop from my local stn Finsbury Park me, Mrs S and a couple of friends travelled to Bowes Park. I did my duty and paid £1.75 return fare (priv). One of my friends works for LUL he purchased a ticket which was £7.50 return (quite why its high i dont know) however his LUL gateline pass opened the gates at F Park. Their is nothing at Bowes Park and no ticket check done on the train either. All of us could have skimmed the fare no doubt like a lot of people do and FCC would have lost £16.75 save for the fact we are honest. As i have a TFL pass that could of opearted the barriers i could quite easily have not paid a penny.
 
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CarterUSM

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People who are anti-DOO do not like it when the Glasgow model is used as an example.

I suspect if you took random members of the public for a trip on FSR suburban Glasgow services then went on SWT inner suburban London services and asked which did not have a guard, the majority would not know the difference between a guard and a ticket examiner, and not seeing anyone on SWT would wrongly assume that SWT are the ones without guards.

I'm not in favour of trains only being staffed by one person at all, but anyone who thinks the SWT non-commercial guard style of operation has any benefits for the customer over a driver with cab secure radio, doing the doors, while a ticket examiner checks tickets, clearly doesn't understand what customers want. The Potters Bar derailment would have been a lot worse if a guard, who had been sat in the back cab, had to go and place detonators on the track to protect the line! And when it comes to personal safety, you are far better off with a ticket examiner patrolling the train than a guard hidden in the back cab.

For every guard that hides in the back cab, i'll show you a ticket examiner in the back cab, I could also list you a number, not loads mind, of ScotRail DOO services usually lacking a TE also for one reason or another. A fairly good system though if carried out as intended, and has improved much since I was in the grade myself.
 

313103

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People who are anti-DOO do not like it when the Glasgow model is used as an example.

The reason being is that in areas where Guards are required, the trains dont run unless one is there. I wouldnt have a problem with the Glasgow model if EVERY single train had a much lower paid (then a Guard) on board. But you know and i know that lots of trains operate in and around Glasgow with just one member of staff on board......... The Driver and that is fact.
 

Greenback

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The report is, predictably, quite depressing. Obviously, the brief did not include looking at ways to improve the structure of the railway industry in any meaningful way, so allw e get is the usual British short sightedness in reducing staff and inconveniencing customers. What a shame.
 

yorkie

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The reason being is that in areas where Guards are required, the trains dont run unless one is there. I wouldnt have a problem with the Glasgow model if EVERY single train had a much lower paid (then a Guard) on board. But you know and i know that lots of trains operate in and around Glasgow with just one member of staff on board......... The Driver and that is fact.
Can we agree that the Glasgow system is a good model to use, but with the proviso that the TOC has to pay a penalty fee for every train that does not have more than one member of staff. The penalty fee would be such that it would be significantly greater than member of staff would cost?.

Yes, you could go a step further and say the train has to be cancelled but I'd rather see a model where it was designed so that it was by far in the operators interest to have that member of staff but if something really unforeseen happened the train could still run.

I personally have very rarely been on trains in the Glasgow area that have not had a ticket examiner but obviously it happens too often and therefore it does need tweaking a bit.
 

SWEDEN567

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I see Christian Woe-mar has been wheeled out again by the Beeb repeating his usual ill-informed rants. Just heard him on Radio 2 business news and heard from someone else he's been on the telly too.

Have had a good read of this today and was disappointed not to read very much into how Network Rail spends so much money on not very much. However as infrastructure is so boring ;) I skim-read those sections. Can anyone provide a pointer?

Read into detail with some interest (unsurprisingly) into revenue and staffing. Good to see staffing is to be tackled, I hope it becomes wide reaching into inefficiencies such as provision of train dispatch staff overnight when no trains are running, opening of ticket offices several hours before the first train and staffing of barriers at 6 in the morning but not at 8pm.

As a long-term supporter of DOO I'm glad to see it's going to be expanded and surprised at the timescale which shows we should know the planned routes before the end of the year! Implementing this has been quite poor by the privatised Tocs due to the short-term nature of it so it's good to see the railway modernising in this way.

A big section on ticket gates but doesn't seem to mention the various problems with them; dumb-belling, leaving them open when no staff are about, double gating and other ways of getting around them.

I agree. Isn't it great to see people put out of work! What a nice person you are.

Less security for passengers, more trouble, more fare evasion, more vandalism. DOO? Who's going to save you when the driver can't?
 

Metroland

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More detailed points from report 1:

Signalling

McNulty is also critical of signalling and control, citing, some countries have almost completely eliminated mechanical signalboxes and NR is comparatively far behind – the average route length controlled by a manned point is just 15 miles compared to 1,289 for one country.

NR has recently commenced the development of a national operations strategy which, in particular, addresses train control and signalling consolidation. This strategy concludes that there should be fewer control centres (circa 15 nationally) across the network, that traffic management (signalling) control should be consolidated and integrated within these centres, and that all elements of operational control and passenger information should be included:

Derby, Gillingham, Cardiff, Saltley, Edinburgh, Ashford, Didcot, Glasgow and proposed: Romford, Three Bridges, York, Manchester, Rugby, Basingstoke.

Regional Railways

The options for the provision of lower-cost trains could include a number of solutions:

• in exceptional circumstances new vehicles could be procured, but they will need to be
significantly cheaper than current heavy rail vehicles to be justified – for example, the average
rail vehicle cost is currently above £1m compared with an average cost of a road coach of
around £150k;
• there may be opportunities in some areas to convert from heavy rail to trams, or tram-trains,
although the economics of the latter have yet to be fully proven;
• cascading trains from other parts of the network or other rail undertakings – second-hand
foreign trains or trams, which are widely deployed in mainland Europe, may prove suitable for
routes that do not have loading gauge constraints; and
• refurbishment and life-extension of existing stock, but taking the opportunity to reduce greatly the operational costs and weight of the vehicle.

The cost of signalling assets could be significantly cut by reducing or eliminating the need for lineside signalling equipment. Initiatives to enable this removal include:

- operating on “drive on sight” principles as used in tram operations where the driver responds to the visual presence of vehicles and obstructions ahead – essentially this is the method of driving employed in a road vehicle, and with modern technology and low speeds can be regarded as a low-risk method of operation;
- equipping trains with improved braking to enable quicker stops – one application, found on trams, is the track brake, whereby braking is enabled by direct interaction between the vehicle and the track rather than via the wheel – this facilitates “drive on sight” operation; and
- moving to a dispatch-based signalling control where instructions to proceed are given to the driver over mobile phone or the GSM-R network. This would greatly reduce, but not eliminate, the need for lineside equipment. It would also enable control to be centrally located and would remove the need for manned signal boxes, which control only a small geographical area.

Other opportunities for lower cost infrastructure include:

• re-use and cascade of materials and equipment from main lines;
• simplify track layouts to remove redundant infrastructure; and
• remove the need for comprehensive maintenance of fence and boundary lines – it is
noteworthy that low-speed, low-frequency routes in mainland Europe are not fenced.

The use of a multi-skilled workforce covering commercial, operational and engineering needs, with salaries set by local benchmarks, would ensure that employment costs better reflected the economic circumstances of the regional railway. Part-time working would encourage a greater involvement from the local community, promote a diverse employment base and facilitate seasonal employment where this would be relevant.

People

McNulty is keen the railways should modernise their work practices and in some cases reduce staff:

The Study recommends that the industry needs to review:

- the limitations on work schedules that restrict the amount of work that can be undertaken during the working day;
- how to reduce the reliance on overtime;
- how to recognise that the railway is a seven-day operation;
- the timing, length and payment for meal and refreshment breaks;
- the amount of time required to prepare equipment for use;
- the maximum time that a person can work in a day, while recognising that there have to be objective tests as to whether fatigue will impact on effectiveness and safety;
- the time that staff require to rest between shifts; and
- the relationship of salaries to: − regional benchmarks; and − comparable jobs in other transport modes and other industries.

Study recommends: DOO as standard, closing Cat E station ticket offices and reducing the hours of D, more ticket barriers, more use of technology (smart cards and E tickets), reducing station dispatch staff (67% of passengers are dispatched without station staff).

There is an opportunity for a fundamental review of training techniques and the time needed to train specific work groups. The reduction in training time will have some financial benefit, but the true benefit of effective training is a better equipped, more flexible and productive workforce. A “new approach to the rule book” is being developed by the industry, and the benefits from a competence-based approach will simplify rules learning and reduce training time. The Study considers that current trends in training point in the direction of a move to college-based training of key industry skills, resulting in the award of a competence licence. This would increase the mobility of staff and encourage competition in training provision.

Implementation

Quarter 3, 2011
Determine the priorities in each area of change, including:
• the routes on which DOO could be introduced;
• the ticket offices that could be closed or where opening times could be reduced;
• the terms of employment that ought to be amended;
• the salaries and terms of employment for new starters; and
• the organisation changes needed to reduce overheads and administrative costs.

Quarter 4, 2011, to Quarter 1, 2012
Commence the consultation and negotiation process:
• with the trade unions on a company by company basis;
• with statutory consultees to advise of changes; and
• with contracting parties to change contractual terms and create more freedom for action.
Quarter 4, 2011, to Quarter 4, 2012

Undertake enabling work to permit changes to be made, including:
• equipping stations with cameras, mirrors and lighting to accept DOO services;
• modifying rolling stock to enable DOO;
• installing additional TVMs;
• training staff in DOO and other new methods of operation; and
• obtaining the relevant approvals to commence new methods of operation.

Quarter 1, 2013, to Quarter 4, 2013
Start to implement change:
• new DOO services introduced;
• ticket office closures and reduced opening hours;
• new terms of employment introduced; and
• new organisational structures or organisation mergers put in place.
In parallel to these initiatives, the changes proposed in the planning and allocation of work,
implementing efficiencies in the BTP, and the introduction of new approaches to training and
development should be implemented.

Nationalistaion

McNulty says: Given the cost reductions seen in other sectors from privatisation, it seems unlikely that renationalisation would lead to a reduction in costs. As argued elsewhere in this report, it is the extensive involvement of Government that has, to some extent, prevented the cost reductions seen elsewhere. Furthermore, where Government has taken control of aspects of the rail system, costs have tended to increase rather than decline.
As private firms aim to increase profits, it is argued by some stakeholders that this drains the rail industry of investment as dividends are paid to shareholders rather than being reinvested into the industry. Therefore, this argument suggests that the subsidies paid for the service are higher than necessary to cover its costs to allow companies to make a profit. However, this argument assumes that the cost of services would be the same if they were provided by a public- or private-sector company. Private companies should be incentivised to reduce costs to create a profit and it seems likely that the Government would need to pay the same, if not more, for these services due to inefficiency in a nationalised industry. This appears to be supported by the Study’s international benchmarking of TOC costs and evidence from other sectors.

Furthermore, the scale of TOC and Rolling Stock Company (ROSCO) profits is relatively small in relation to the overall costs of the industry. In 2009/10 combined profits of TOCs and ROSCOs were around £400m, which was around 3% of total industry expenditure.

Renationalising under a single body could in theory provide benefits in terms of economies of scale and scope, ensuring co-ordination, removing duplication and harmonising terms and conditions. However, there could also be significant drawbacks in terms of:

-even with one national organisation there is likely to be a need to develop disaggregated business units within this structure for management to be effective, reducing the potential saving in interface costs;
- budgetary certainty is likely to decrease as NR is unlikely to benefit from the security of funding currently provided by the High Level Output Specification (HLOS) and periodic review process;
- renationalisation would require the Government to incur huge costs from buying the industry and all its assets back from private firms;
- the Government would inherit the debts of the rail industry, with NR’s debts back on the Government’s balance sheet; and
- EU legislation is unlikely to allow the transfer of assets into a single (nationalised) public body, as separation will still be needed between train operations and timetabling, reducing some of the potential advantages
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

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Looking at the rolling stock chapter the lifetime costs of a 40 year unit are 31% initial purchase, 25% running costs and 44% maintence. Each year we spend about 1bn on leasing costs, 500m on new units and 400m on maintence.

ROSCO's are the real profit makers in the industry with margins varying from 12-37% compared to 3-5% for Tocs and 8% for Intercity tocs.

As you would expect costs are gradually rising as train complexity increases however it hasnt really risen much over the last 20 years (from around £1.1m to £1.2m), UK Suburban EMU's as a comparison are 15% lower than the world average to procure though British diesels are higher than average they are still lower than Germany, N Ireland and Czech.

Rolling stock ordering costs range from 500k for a simple followon order to 15m for negotiating a large new rolling stock order according to Tocs. One Toc complained they ordered Electrostars for £1.1m per vehicle and were ready to sign a optional follow on order for £0.78m per vehicle but because the Dft took so long to approve it the option lapsed and they had to pay £1.25m.

According to Arup costs for a rolling stock order of under 200 vehicles increase by 20-60% due to fixed costs and inability to learn from earlier production.

'Re-leasing is not a single market but a series of seperate markets which exist around franchise renewal dates. Rolling stock is highly non-substitutable, there is almost no surplus stock and little chance of new stock displacing old.'

ROSCO's are incentivises to reduce costs through legislation however as the market isnt competitive there is no motive to pass on the savings to the Tocs. Tocs have little power and generally pass the leasing job off to the Dft.

Suggestions:

* Standardise British Rolling stock modules, open standards to developed by the industry to increase innovation and reduce whole-life costs.

* Faster less beuracratic rolling stock procurement which provides suppliers with forewarning of needs, optimises whole life cost, engages tocs to find cheaper alternatives, early engagement and standardisation.

* The Dft should partner with Roscos to ensure their leasing prices are value for money, enhanced assurance to Roscos that stock will be utilised, set the lease prices Roscos can charge and if that doesnt work it should find private capital to set itself up as a rival Rosco in the knowledge that stock will always find a home and is in the public good.
 

Trainbuff

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I think my major issue is this. As a guard myself I feel that the job that most people actually see me doing such as ticketing and collecting fares, dispatch and locking and closing of doors is all I am seen to do.

No-one has mentioned that as part of my SAFETY CRITICAL role that I am ruled. So that, heaven forbid, the Driver is killed I am responsible for train protection.

Think about Ladbroke Grove. Who contacted the Signaller?

I get paid for what I know (The Rulebook), NOT for what I am seen to do. Potentially I could save Hundreds of Lives.

My job is safety and I can only be replaced by eroding safety standards on our trains.

That is why I hope the RMT fights this on a national scale.

I also used to be a Bus Driver. Now that really is shocking pay. And the training is less than a third of what I needed to do as a Guard. Let alone a Train Drivers Training
 

ANorthernGuard

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I look at it this way they simple but very effective (obviously being a guard I am biased) however


Train Hits Car, Driver get seriously injured or worse

DOO who looks after the passengers considering there are running lines/Overhead/3rd Rail?

Driver/Guard Operated Train Guard carries out Protection, Looks after passengers/contacts Signaller/Control etc.

Whats the safest Option???
 

Zoe

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Well in the future with driverless cars the chances of a level crossing accident will be very low. As I have said elewhere, in the future computers will quite simply be better at handling situations than humans are.
 

ukrob

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I look at it this way they simple but very effective (obviously being a guard I am biased) however


Train Hits Car, Driver get seriously injured or worse

DOO who looks after the passengers considering there are running lines/Overhead/3rd Rail?

Driver/Guard Operated Train Guard carries out Protection, Looks after passengers/contacts Signaller/Control etc.

Whats the safest Option???

I'm certainly not disagreeing with you or saying the scenario could not happen (which it certainly could).

My question is has there been any such incidents with DOO where it is already used? What did the reports say about the effect of DOO on the incident?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well in the future with driverless cars the chances of a level crossing accident will be very low. As I have said elewhere, in the future computers will quite simply be better at handling situations than humans are.

This report wants DOO now. Driverless cars are decades away from being the norm.
 

GB

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I'm not in favour of trains only being staffed by one person at all, but anyone who thinks the SWT non-commercial guard style of operation has any benefits for the customer over a driver with cab secure radio, doing the doors, while a ticket examiner checks tickets, clearly doesn't understand what customers want. The Potters Bar derailment would have been a lot worse if a guard, who had been sat in the back cab, had to go and place detonators on the track to protect the line! And when it comes to personal safety, you are far better off with a ticket examiner patrolling the train than a guard hidden in the back cab.

Why would the Potters derailment have been worse if there was a guard present who then had to lay emrgency protection?
 

sprinterguy

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Regional Railways

The options for the provision of lower-cost trains could include a number of solutions:

• in exceptional circumstances new vehicles could be procured, but they will need to be
significantly cheaper than current heavy rail vehicles to be justified – for example, the average
rail vehicle cost is currently above £1m compared with an average cost of a road coach of
around £150k;
• there may be opportunities in some areas to convert from heavy rail to trams, or tram-trains,
although the economics of the latter have yet to be fully proven;
• cascading trains from other parts of the network or other rail undertakings – second-hand
foreign trains or trams, which are widely deployed in mainland Europe, may prove suitable for
routes that do not have loading gauge constraints; and
• refurbishment and life-extension of existing stock, but taking the opportunity to reduce greatly the operational costs and weight of the vehicle.
This sounds like it’s setting the scene for a repeat of the sort of thinking that saw the widespread introduction of Pacers, often on commuter routes unsuitable for their use, and the survival of first gen DMUs in passenger service into the early years of the twenty first century. May the lord have mercy on our souls. :-x

What the growing popularity of local rail travel, for leisure and business, in the regions far removed from London requires is an injection of new two and three carriage suburban layout trains (I’m thinking 172s here) into the middle of the local services hierarchy which covers commuter and suburban services: Pushing the 150s and 153s that currently operate these services down onto rural services which replaces Pacers both directly and indirectly, and pushing 156s up onto regional services to which they are better suited and retaining 158s on longer distance inter-regional services.
 

313103

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All i know is that Clapham would have been far worse, but for the actions of one of the Guards ( A twevle coach train was stopped with about 300 yds to spare by the actions of one Guard, yet strangely enough BR went ahead with DOO).

With regard a DOO train. Ladbroke Grove involved a DOO train, driver fatally injured, but for a off duty driver Manager travelling pass, the passengers would of had to wait for the emergency services to arrive. The other train involved was conventionally manned, and to make matters worse the rule book was changed only one week before so before he went on the track he had to try and contact the driver (also fatally injured), wasted seconds lead to minutes in which it is a matter of life and death.

We have yet to see (not that i or anyone wishes to) what would happen if all trains with just a driver on board were involved in a incident where the drivers are incapacitated and no other member of staff is on board.
 

ainsworth74

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All i know is that Clapham would have been far worse, but for the actions of one of the Guards ( A twevle coach train was stopped with about 300 yds to spare by the actions of one Guard, yet strangely enough BR went ahead with DOO).

When during the accident was this? I've just had a flick through the accident report and for the three trains involved there was nothing that could have been done differently. The fourth train heading for Waterloo coming towards the defective signal WF138 was able to see the crash about 250 yards in front of that signal and the driver was able to brake in time to stop 60 yards from the rear of the Poole train. It doesn't mention the actions of any guards in preventing further incident.
 

Ferret

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When during the accident was this? I've just had a flick through the accident report and for the three trains involved there was nothing that could have been done differently. The fourth train heading for Waterloo coming towards the defective signal WF138 was able to see the crash about 250 yards in front of that signal and the driver was able to brake in time to stop 60 yards from the rear of the Poole train. It doesn't mention the actions of any guards in preventing further incident.

Read the full report again (chat in about a week then?! Lol!) - somewhere it should make mention of a guard walking back and putting detonators down as despite the carnage, one signal in rear of the incident was showing either one yellow or two yellows!
 

ainsworth74

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Read the full report again (chat in about a week then?! Lol!)

Indeed, I've never quite managed the whole thing (always run out of time) but I've covered the before, during and after and causes of the accident.

somewhere it should make mention of a guard walking back and putting detonators down as despite the carnage, one signal in rear of the incident was showing either one yellow or two yellows!

Actually that does ring a bell now, I will go back and have another look when I get a spare few weeks or so :lol: Thanks for the reminder though.

Edit: Actually I've found the relevant section, 4.26, where it does say that Guard Evens laid detonators as he couldn't be sure that WF142 to the rear of his train was showing red (as the faulty signal was still showing one yellow despite the carnage), it of course was as there was no fault there. But I guess I forget his laying of the detonators. Sorry about that :oops:
 

driverchris52

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I see Christian Woe-mar has been wheeled out again by the Beeb repeating his usual ill-informed rants. Just heard him on Radio 2 business news and heard from someone else he's been on the telly too.

Have had a good read of this today and was disappointed not to read very much into how Network Rail spends so much money on not very much. However as infrastructure is so boring ;) I skim-read those sections. Can anyone provide a pointer?

Read into detail with some interest (unsurprisingly) into revenue and staffing. Good to see staffing is to be tackled, I hope it becomes wide reaching into inefficiencies such as provision of train dispatch staff overnight when no trains are running, opening of ticket offices several hours before the first train and staffing of barriers at 6 in the morning but not at 8pm.

As a long-term supporter of DOO I'm glad to see it's going to be expanded and surprised at the timescale which shows we should know the planned routes before the end of the year! Implementing this has been quite poor by the privatised Tocs due to the short-term nature of it so it's good to see the railway modernising in this way.

A big section on ticket gates but doesn't seem to mention the various problems with them; dumb-belling, leaving them open when no staff are about, double gating and other ways of getting around them.

I don't know what Christian Wolmer has ever done to you, but ill-informed he is not. More objective discussion and less vitriolic spleen please.
 

Ferret

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Yeah, it's the same with all the major accident reports - Colwich, Ladbroke Grove, Southall - they go on forever and a day!
 

WatcherZero

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This sounds like it’s setting the scene for a repeat of the sort of thinking that saw the widespread introduction of Pacers, often on commuter routes unsuitable for their use, and the survival of first gen DMUs in passenger service into the early years of the twenty first century. May the lord have mercy on our souls. :-x

What the growing popularity of local rail travel, for leisure and business, in the regions far removed from London requires is an injection of new two and three carriage suburban layout trains (I’m thinking 172s here) into the middle of the local services hierarchy which covers commuter and suburban services: Pushing the 150s and 153s that currently operate these services down onto rural services which replaces Pacers both directly and indirectly, and pushing 156s up onto regional services to which they are better suited and retaining 158s on longer distance inter-regional services.

It does earlier define the areas that are regional and couldnt support new stock as Lincolnshire, Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, and parts of Scotland and Wales (though this is a report on England), not outer suburban services in places like the North West or Midlands.
 

j0hn0

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I don't know what Christian Wolmer has ever done to you, but ill-informed he is not. More objective discussion and less vitriolic spleen please.

why not try that yourself? Mojo made a long post and all you do is pick up on the generalisation he made to try and get the point across.

I for one agree that it is Woe-mar because despite his so called "informed opinion", I disagree with him on so many issues. He is the only rail commentator that is ever wheeled out by the BBC and all he ever paints is a negative picture. He doesn't have anything positive to say, only perhaps to Michael Portillo :)
 

tbtc

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More detailed points from report 1:

Signalling

McNulty is also critical of signalling and control, citing, some countries have almost completely eliminated mechanical signalboxes and NR is comparatively far behind – the average route length controlled by a manned point is just 15 miles compared to 1,289 for one country.

NR has recently commenced the development of a national operations strategy which, in particular, addresses train control and signalling consolidation. This strategy concludes that there should be fewer control centres (circa 15 nationally) across the network, that traffic management (signalling) control should be consolidated and integrated within these centres, and that all elements of operational control and passenger information should be included:

Derby, Gillingham, Cardiff, Saltley, Edinburgh, Ashford, Didcot, Glasgow and proposed: Romford, Three Bridges, York, Manchester, Rugby, Basingstoke.

Rather than getting into another argument about the rights and wrongs of Guards (since there will be a thousand posts about this, and nobody is ever going to change anyone's mind, especially those who work in that role), I've picked up on the signalling point.

We've had a couple of threads recently complaining about poor Sunday train services in Cumbria and Lincolnshire, partly because the signalling staff only do one Sunday shift in these areas (so nothing before lunchtime on a Sunday, as well as no late night trains through the week).

Is there the potential to contract these lines to another "24/7" signalling operation elsewhere in the country at "antisocial" hours? It seems a shame that parts of the country don't get the service they need/ deserve because of something like this.
 

spacehopper

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
151
All this talk about DOO again.....

Interesting to note that the examples they give about DOO include obviously Strathclyde TE services and SET HS- OBM services. Yeah they are DOO but have a "second member of staff" aboard.

So wheres the savings..... ???

If your going DOO then what are you saving from still having that "second member of staff" aboard? If your going to have a "second member of staff" aboard then why not have that staff as someone who is a highly trained skilled professional? You could call them a "guard". Difference in a guards wages and a TE few thousand. I think that few thousand is money well spent on having someone who yes can do revenue but is also safety critical.

We really that obsessed with the few extra seconds of having to close and open the local door and check that the train is on the platform? Letter in RailNews from an SWT driver pointing out any saving in driver doing doors would be eroded by waiting at junctions etc. I manage to check and sell tickets and do the doors without delaying the train. Soon be upstairs if the delay minutes started to rack up. I must say fitting stock with intermediate DKS is such a huge help in regards to time keeping, revenue protection and patrolling. I'm stepping on to the platform at each stop, so people on the station can come up to me and ask questions, I can see who is boarding and how many much easier from a revenue protection point of view. See bikes and buggies make sure they get on the train at the right section. Help buggies and wheelchairs on. I'm sure me doing these things saves those precious seconds.

Obviously all the cliches about feet up in back cab come out- despite being banned by some TOCs and none of the stock i sign can be worked from the cab. The whole train has a very good view of me doing the doors at every stop, checking tickets, doing announcements how much more visible can I be.

I'm the face of the company, no station staff, no booking offices- I can be the only interaction thousands of passengers have. If someone is sat in a cab at the front of the train that's a great position to be in if people need help or assistance, timetable or connections, help with a case. I believe me being a guard on the train is making a big difference to not only the passengers safety but the whole journey experience. Service quality, safety, security, cleanliness all plummet if trains become DOO. I'm sure FCC had 11% NPS rating on availability of on board staff (explained by DOO). Most passengers you talk too appreciate having a guard on the train. If most of the posters on this forum don't then fair do. Different experience traveling on a DOO network to a line that has a guard.

Loss of revenue through DOO and open stations over the years must have been huge. The revenue I bring in for the company pays my wages many times over. Going to close booking offices, install TVM (get broken into, break down, don't sell cheapest tickets), make trains DOO, then revenue is certainly going to take a hit.

So what kind of railway do we want (cheaper) but at what true cost. The cost that can't be justified by a %. So unless this mythical "second member of staff" is chopped and only person on the train is a driver who has taken a pay cut and is paid same as a van driver (because you can obviously compare like for like) and who works 12 hours with a 15 minute break drives 700 miles because rail staff are so unproductive and Spanish practices are long gone and he isn't in a bloody union that strikes at the drop off a hat because railway unions are always on strike. TVM replaces a booking office, guard, RPI. Vending machine replaces a chef, customer host, buffet staff. CCTV camera and help point replaces station staff, gateline, BTP. The railway will require little subsidy, shareholder dividends will be huge, everybody buys a ticket with their super smart card. The railway will be the cheapest in europe but what railway will we really be left with?
 

driverchris52

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
14
why not try that yourself? Mojo made a long post and all you do is pick up on the generalisation he made to try and get the point across.

I for one agree that it is Woe-mar because despite his so called "informed opinion", I disagree with him on so many issues. He is the only rail commentator that is ever wheeled out by the BBC and all he ever paints is a negative picture. He doesn't have anything positive to say, only perhaps to Michael Portillo :)

I'm not the one who is corrupting someones name because I don't like what they say!
If you don't like the BBC 'wheeling out' Mr Wolmer then try contacting them yourself. Your opinion is as valid as anybody else's
 

sprinterguy

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4 Mar 2010
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11,565
Location
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It does earlier define the areas that are regional and couldnt support new stock as Lincolnshire, Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, and parts of Scotland and Wales (though this is a report on England), not outer suburban services in places like the North West or Midlands.
True, but all the services are so closely interlinked with each other that they have to be considered as part of a greater overall scheme when it comes to rolling stock replacement.

Keeping Sprinter trains on rural and low use routes for many years to come I can accept, but these routes deserve better than to be downgraded to something approaching light railway status with cheap, exceptionally basic rolling stock. It’s exactly the same thinking as was behind the Pacer programme being repeated, and look where that debacle has landed us.
 

Zoe

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22 Aug 2008
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5,905
Pacers are at least better than having the line closed.
 

313103

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13 May 2006
Messages
1,595
Spacehopper,

A very well thoughtful and interesting argument to those who think DOO is the best thing since sliced bread. I couldn't have put it as elequent as you have.
 

Zoe

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22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
A very well thoughtful and interesting argument to those who think DOO is the best thing since sliced bread. I couldn't have put it as elequent as you have.
Out of interest, would you re-introduce guards on the London Underground?
 
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