McNulty Report

[ivanhoe]

It's not that simple these days though as people will need to take into account their carbon footprint when making such a choice.

I would argue that most people will take economic reasons into account rather than their carbon footprint. Price is key!

 

[Essexman]

Transport Secretary was on the radio this morning saying our railways cost 30% more to run than European ones.
Shame the interviewer wasn't clued up enough to point out that many of these costs are due to the ridiculous way his party privitised the system.

 

[WestCoast]

Interstingly one complaint ive heard is from a freind who said he couldnt get down more than a couple of coachs because every station he had to go back and operate the doors again, if he didnt have to do that he could ticket check the whole train.

Yes, that is a problem where conductors do the doors. The Northern Rail Glossop/Hadfield line out of Man Pic must be a bad one for this - stops roughly every 2-4 minutes! That would definitely be a DOO/non-commercial guard and penalty fare service if it were in the South East.

In theory, and in my opinion, with modern technology such as in-cab CCTV it makes sense for drivers to do the doors, with the help of platform dispatch staff at busier stations..

 

[FGWman]

12.1.6 Recommendations for Cost Reduction - Retail

The Study recommends that TOCs should consider:

• The closure of all Category E station ticket offices
• Reducing the opening hours at Category D station ticket offices
  [/
  Taking Four Oaks as an example, ignoring Christmas Day & Boxing Day, it is used by 1490 passengers per day. Even ignoring the fact that less people use the station on Sundays, and that less people use the station in the evenings and on Sundays, that is still 82-83 people per hour of service, every single day of the year. Can that not justify a single member of staff?
  
  Coupled with the proposals to make as many trains as possible DOO, what will the incentive to actually buy a ticket be?
  
  !

• 
  
  There was a line in the report where it said :-
  
  Increase the Penalty fare to more effectively deter fraudulent travel.

 

[ainsworth74]

In theory, and in my opinion, with modern technology such as in-cab CCTV it makes sense for drivers to do the doors, with the help of platform dispatch staff at busier stations.

I sort of agree, but personally I think it makes sense for the driver to release the doors but for a guard to actually close the doors and then give the driver the right away (all whilst working with dispatch staff as necessary).

 

[dave_wm]

There was a line in the report where it said :-

Increase the Penalty fare to more effectively deter fraudulent travel.

But with no ticket offices and no guards on board trains, the only checking to be done will be occasional RPIs who will catch but a fraction of people without tickets!

 

[yorksrob]

From a practical point of view, staff on train almost certainly generate more revenue than they collect. Simply having people checking tickets on the way will deter a lot of opportunistic fare dodging. (This is certainly the case where I live).


The alternative?

Barriers at stations of course - but then they need staffing with one person at least, including the little stations, so whilst a lot of station booking offices currently close after the morning, these will have to be staffed throughout business hours.

Without staff, revenue will plummet.

 

[FGWman]

But with no ticket offices and no guards on board trains, the only checking to be done will be occasional RPIs who will catch but a fraction of people without tickets!

I think the plan would be to put the penalty fare up high enough that people would buy tickets.

 

[12CSVT]

How does this so-called 'overstaffing' tally with the fact that London Midland and FCC barely have enough drivers to run the advertised service.

 

[WatcherZero]

From a practical point of view, staff on train almost certainly generate more revenue than they collect. Simply having people checking tickets on the way will deter a lot of opportunistic fare dodging. (This is certainly the case where I live).


The alternative?

Barriers at stations of course - but then they need staffing with one person at least, including the little stations, so whilst a lot of station booking offices currently close after the morning, these will have to be staffed throughout business hours.

Without staff, revenue will plummet.

What about routes where all stations are staffed checking tickets (or at least for half the route) and you still have someone onboard checking tickets! Sometimes I make a journey I have the ticket checked 4 times, once at departure stations, twice en-route (because of staff changeover) and again at destination.

 

[yorksrob]

What about routes where all stations are staffed checking tickets (or at least for half the route) and you still have someone onboard checking tickets! Sometimes I make a journey I have the ticket checked 4 times, once at departure stations, twice en-route (because of staff changeover) and again at destination.

Yeah, you could get away with one or the other. In Yorkshire for example, the only station with a staffed barrier is Leeds (and perhaps Bradford) but you can barely go two stops without a check.

 

[CosherB]

Train drivers are closer in job status to airline pilots than to bus/lorry drivers which are classed as 'Routine Occupations'

Isn't this precisely the point? The report says they are currently overpaid and their pay should be more comparable with (not the same as) bus drivers.

By the way, you might be surprised at what little money and what poor conditions are 'enjoyed' by many airline pilots these days. Not saying it's right (though there's no doubt both were excessive in the past) but that's the way it is - market driven as is life.

Times is 'ard, and the railway has to take its share of the financial pain. Hiding places are being flushed out.

 

[387star]

What's a TVM? What does the V mean?

Can someone explain the role of manager as opposed to guard because I'm curious

 

[387star]

£26, 000 is very good regarding the pay. My dad was a teacher and he only got slightly more than that. I'm sure you struggle but I'd love that salary
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bus drivers earn peanuts surely train drivers pay won't be so reduced

 

[CosherB]

Remember second men in the cab, a hangover from steam days (firemen) that the unions tried to insist on carrying over to diesel and electric traction? That went.

DOO will come quickly, and automatic crewless trains soon after. Many light rail commuter lines abroad are completely automated, and unlike the DLR they run at fast speeds, too.

Cost HAS to be taken out of the railway, and reducing head count will be the number one way of doing it. It just has to be done sensibly using technology so things like revenue protection are maintained.

 

[GB]

What's a TVM? What does the V mean?

Can someone explain the role of manager as opposed to guard because I'm curious

At a guess, Ticket Vending Machine?

 

[Goldfish62]

I sort of agree, but personally I think it makes sense for the driver to release the doors but for a guard to actually close the doors and then give the driver the right away (all whilst working with dispatch staff as necessary).

This the standard practice on on trains with guards on Southern, South Eastern, Virgin, Overground and Cross Country, and almost universal in the erst of Europe, including Eurostar and TGV. In fact, the guards control panel on all the relevant trains does not have a door release button - just door close and bell signal buttons. Southern now even operate the 442s in the same manner.

So why on earth can't SWT do it? I'm fed up with the several seconds wait at each station while the guard has to check that the platform hasn't been abducted by aliens before releasing the doors.

As to DOO - it can't happen quicker enough for me on SWT's suburban services, but the saving should be reinvested in improved staffing at stations.

 

[Captain Chaos]

There will still be ATE's Going back to the FGW conductor example Reading to Bedwyn is already DOO so Reading to Basingstoke could go DOO with ATE on the peak services.

I know the Reading to Bedwyn line is DOO. It has been my local line my entire life. The level of fare evasion on the line is exceedingly high. TM's I have spoken to have complained about it. The trouble with the line is that there is often no TE's down the line after midday, so after this it is pretty much a free ride. Even when people are caught by TM's on HST stopping services or RPO's are down there they refuse to pay as they don't see the point in doing so.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it is reasonable to suggest that regional services will become DOO some time in the fairly near future. That's not to say I agree with it.

I suspect that it is least likely on Regional Railways in the near future - simply because so few stations are staffed.

 

[387star]

PS to clarify I think bus drivers deserve to be paid more but a comparison with train driving is unwise.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

This the standard practice on on trains with guards on Southern, South Eastern, Virgin, Overground and Cross Country, and almost universal in the erst of Europe, including Eurostar and TGV. In fact, the guards control panel on all the relevant trains does not have a door release button - just door close and bell signal buttons. Southern now even operate the 442s in the same manner.

So why on earth can't SWT do it? I'm fed up with the several seconds wait at each station while the guard has to check that the platform hasn't been abducted by aliens before releasing the doors.

Chiltern 165 and 168 services work like that too.
Chiltern is a funny old TOC when it comes to DOO work. Everything south of Banbury (except for the Bubble car, which makes a handful of trips a week) is DOO, and the services which extend beyond Banbury are conventionally manned with a driver and guard when they are north of Banbury, which includes dispatching from the down platforms at Banbury station.

Chiltern are now introducing loco hauled trains which need a guard on all the way from Birmingham to London, and they are going to increase the number of these loco hauled trains quite dramatically over the next couple of years until pretty much all of the Moor Street - Marylebone "fast" services are operated by a class 67 & mark 3 coaches.
The reason is that they obviously need to cascade the 168s onto the Oxford branch when that opens, you cant just run a 100mph half hourly service to a new (and massively important) destination on your route without it having a pretty serious impact on your fleet and how that fleet runs. Oxford services will be DOO. 168s and 165s are built to make DOO work easy. 67s are not.

This leaves me thinking about the current traction we have on the railway. Talking purely hypothetically for a moment, if somebody made a magic wand and the entire network had to go DOO next year, which units would easily allow for that to happen (I am guessing most of the networker/turbostar/electrostar family of trains) and which ones would it be a lot more difficult to modify?

 

[WatcherZero]

I think smartcards will do great on commuter routes, making everyday journeys quicker and easier and allowing for unplanned discounts, e.g. if you travel enough times during a weak your charged for a weekly ticket and discounted the balance.

I get really scared at the prospect of it being used for Intercity journeys however, as the McNulty report says advance fares can vary between 10% and 90% of a standard ticket price and day of departure ticket prices are atrotious. You also factor in you may accidentally travel by peak rather than offpeak as you didnt see the price before you swiped. Its going to lead to some huge (possibly running into thousands of pounds) unexpected bills.

 

[umontu]

I can't see this working on rural lines,
I mean imagine the maintenance costs of barriers all the way up the West Highlands just for the minimal amount of people using the stations. Surely the cost of a guard is lower than say a ticket machine and barrier at every station (That could be easy to get around.)in addition to a team of maintenance crews that'll rack up the miles and hours getting to and from every station.

Take Moss Side on the South Fylde line, the electricity bills alone would out weigh a guard! Not only that but what's to stop a person walking on to the track and climbing up on to the platform then get off at Kirkham where there's no one there to stop them for a ticket? :roll:

DOO works great on a system that is enclosed, transit systems for example. Not rural lines!

 

[strange6]

What do people think about the current length of the franchises? Personally speaking, I think they're way too short for companies to make some serious investment in better stock.

 

[Mojo]

Well as an avid supporter of 'What i read as the former British rail Open station plan and of course being a long term supporter of DOO. Can you please now answer the question i posted earlier and more to the point, Who will subsidise me when i am out of a job, taking into account rising costs and more importantly rising unemployment? None of this has been addressed yet.

I never said I am in favour of open stations! If there is one thing I fully support it is a member of staff being present and visible at all times it is the staffing throughout the traffic day of all non-rural stations with a reasonably frequent service with a visible and proactive member of staff.

There also seems to be the assumption here that DOO means that there are no ticket inspections on board, such as the early-90s model employed by BR in the South East. On many routes with guards (eg. SWT routes with non-commercial guards or the urban sections of routes such as the Cross-City) this is already the case! However ticket examiners could work these trains such as those who operate on the electric routes in the Glasgow area. On a number of routes this could lead to an improvement of revenue collection as the guard wouldn't have to mess about with the doors!

 

[yorkie]

What do people think about the current length of the franchises? Personally speaking, I think they're way too short for companies to make some serious investment in better stock.

Yes, they are, but it's leasing companies who invest in stock really. But right now, no-one wants to build new diesel trains, because it is unclear if diesel trains will be economically viable over the length of time it would take to recoup the costs, given the uncertainty over oil availability and prices. As for the idea of getting "better" stock, if you reduce seating density you reduce revenue and if you increase running costs you increase expenditure, a dangerous combination. The problem of replacing Pacers is not going to be solved easily, even if the franchises were a lot longer.

 

[Class 466]

What do people think about the current length of the franchises? Personally speaking, I think they're way too short for companies to make some serious investment in better stock.

Yeah they are, for example Govia were given a 6 year franchise for the IKF but because of the cost of HS services they wont have chance to fully repaint + Refresh their fleet so in 2014 there will be 375s around still in connex's yellow livery that will have been on some units for 13 years, but Southeastern have been the best operator in kent for a long time for example if Govia had'nt gained the franchise we wouldnt have highspeed connections between London and places like Maidstone or Deal, which southeastern pushed through themselves

 

[CarterUSM]

This leaves me thinking about the current traction we have on the railway. Talking purely hypothetically for a moment, if somebody made a magic wand and the entire network had to go DOO next year, which units would easily allow for that to happen (I am guessing most of the networker/turbostar/electrostar family of trains) and which ones would it be a lot more difficult to modify?

I'm no fitter, but I wouldn't think it particularly difficult to wire up just about any multiple unit. 314's are gettin on a bit, and they were made DOO capable easily enough years ago. Our 156's also have operational door open buttons in the cab, but no close button, also easily remedied i'm sure. Perhaps one of our Rolling stock tech members could explain more? Interestingly, all the 380's have come with Guard operation panels as standard, even the 3 car ones that we won't use on the route specifed as conductor operated.

 

[Skimble19]

PS to clarify I think bus drivers deserve to be paid more but a comparison with train driving is unwise.

Stagecoach drivers (certainly around my area) are paid *very* well.. especially those that work night shifts such as the X5 route.

 

[yorkie]

There also seems to be the assumption here that DOO means that there are no ticket inspections on board, such as the early-90s model employed by BR in the South East. On many routes with guards (eg. SWT routes with non-commercial guards or the urban sections of routes such as the Cross-City) this is already the case! However ticket examiners could work these trains such as those who operate on the electric routes in the Glasgow area. On a number of routes this could lead to an improvement of revenue collection as the guard wouldn't have to mess about with the doors!

People who are anti-DOO do not like it when the Glasgow model is used as an example.

I suspect if you took random members of the public for a trip on FSR suburban Glasgow services then went on SWT inner suburban London services and asked which did not have a guard, the majority would not know the difference between a guard and a ticket examiner, and not seeing anyone on SWT would wrongly assume that SWT are the ones without guards.

I'm not in favour of trains only being staffed by one person at all, but anyone who thinks the SWT non-commercial guard style of operation has any benefits for the customer over a driver with cab secure radio, doing the doors, while a ticket examiner checks tickets, clearly doesn't understand what customers want. The Potters Bar derailment would have been a lot worse if a guard, who had been sat in the back cab, had to go and place detonators on the track to protect the line! And when it comes to personal safety, you are far better off with a ticket examiner patrolling the train than a guard hidden in the back cab.