McNulty Report

[Statto]

7. Liberalise fares structure, with full review of fares policy. Fares should be tied to demand.


Interesting one, i can see the point on cheaper tickets on trains before 6:30am, when trains are empty, but would that also mean that the off peak tickets vadility after the morning peak would start later in the morning?

 

[313103]

Read into detail with some interest (unsurprisingly) into revenue and staffing. Good to see staffing is to be tackled, I hope it becomes wide reaching into inefficiencies such as provision of train dispatch staff overnight when no trains are running, opening of ticket offices several hours before the first train and staffing of barriers at 6 in the morning but not at 8pm.

As a long-term supporter of DOO I'm glad to see it's going to be expanded and surprised at the timescale which shows we should know the planned routes before the end of the year! Implementing this has been quite poor by the privatised Tocs due to the short-term nature of it so it's good to see the railway modernising in this way.

A big section on ticket gates but doesn't seem to mention the various problems with them; dumb-belling, leaving them open when no staff are about, double gating and other ways of getting around them.

Well as an avid supporter of 'What i read as the former British rail Open station plan and of course being a long term supporter of DOO. Can you please now answer the question i posted earlier and more to the point, Who will subsidise me when i am out of a job, taking into account rising costs and more importantly rising unemployment? None of this has been addressed yet.

My company would save per annum £6.5 million in Conductors wages and possibly the same amount by de-staffing the stations. I would like to know how all these savings will benefit the passengers and more importantly if they are going to save my £26,000 portion of the above figure. I want to go to a good cause, not Government, not a quango a good cause,
1. The average age of trains in my company is 1.5 years, so they are still babies. So no new trains needed there
2. Every single LOROL station has gone under at least one minor refurb and all are being done under a phase 3 plan which has happened at quite af eww stations already. So no savings there.
3. The train service is now up to a train on the core sections of route like it is on the underground between 5-7 minutes peak and 10-12 off peak. How we can run anymore is beyond me.

I am glad that you will be happy to see thousands (and i am not scare mongering either) being put on the dole and living off the state.

 

[387star]

Sir Roy wants DOO to be the default with a second member of staff only needed for commercial or technical reasons etc.

There are suggestions rail staff are overpayed and shouldn't recieve pay rises above inflation.

Can't see this going down well and hopefully RMT will continue to oppose this

Guards are vital for passenger assistance, security and ticket fraud and without them passenger survey scores will plummet IMO

 

[dave_wm]

12.1.6 Recommendations for Cost Reduction - Retail

The Study recommends that TOCs should consider:

• The closure of all Category E station ticket offices
• Reducing the opening hours at Category D station ticket offices

There are currently 302 stations of Category 'D', and 675 stations of Category 'E'. The report thus proposes the closure of 675 ticket offices on Network Rail, including stations such as Four Oaks (541,000 users in 2009/2010), Broadstairs (574,000), Llandudno (287,000), Rotherham Central (647,000) and Shoeburyness (599,000), to name a few.

Taking Four Oaks as an example, ignoring Christmas Day & Boxing Day, it is used by 1490 passengers per day. Even ignoring the fact that less people use the station on Sundays, and that less people use the station in the evenings and on Sundays, that is still 82-83 people per hour of service, every single day of the year. Can that not justify a single member of staff?

Coupled with the proposals to make as many trains as possible DOO, what will the incentive to actually buy a ticket be?

I really don't think this report has thought through the consequences of its actions at all - you can't cut ticket office staff and on-train staff - no one will buy tickets!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

12.1.6 Recommendations for Cost Reduction - Retail

The Study recommends that TOCs should consider:

• The closure of all Category E station ticket offices
• Reducing the opening hours at Category D station ticket offices

There are currently 302 stations of Category 'D', and 675 stations of Category 'E'. The report thus proposes the closure of 675 ticket offices on Network Rail, including stations such as Four Oaks (541,000 users in 2009/2010), Broadstairs (574,000), Llandudno (287,000), Rotherham Central (647,000) and Shoeburyness (599,000), to name a few.

One of the things I don't agree with. How can you find out the categories of the ticket offices?

 

[dave_wm]

They're all available in this PDF http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/stations/betterrailstations/pdf/partd.pdf

 

[Fred26]

Guards will eventually be disposed of. I'm very against it, but it's only a matter of time.

 

[GB]

If TOCs are making £millions of profit while still maintaining franchise agreements then I do not see why staff should not recieve above inflation pay rises. They should crack down on the TOCs automatically passing it on to passengers.

 

[387star]

Yes I can see why conductors were dismissed from buses but trains are a different matter.

Maybe this is why TOCs look to external applicants for driver vacancys.

By the way this quote from the Guardian seemed such a paradox it made me laugh:


In northern England many people have to travel on 30-year-old adapted buses, whose gearboxes keep falling on to the tracks.

So what should be done? Scrap privatisation, say some. But it hasn't failed in every regard. Trains are better, faster, busier and more frequent. Complexity and interference have skewed the railways, not the market. The best services in Britain are run by firms with the least to do with the state. On my line to Derby, private East Midland trains runs two trains an hour when before privatisation there wasn't always one.

 

[notadriver]

Guards will eventually be disposed of. I'm very against it, but it's only a matter of time.

There will always be a second member of staff on the longer distance trains.

 

[Zoe]

So what should be done? Scrap privatisation, say some. But it hasn't failed in every regard. Trains are better[/B], faster, busier and more frequent.

The question here is if that is a result of privatization or if there would still have been improvements with BR due to increase in demand. In the last few years Intercity was actually making a profit.

 

[387star]

I would imagine guards on the Island line and self enclosed networks like C2C may be under threat...

However losing guards will not reduce costs because more gate line staff will be needed?

Off topic but in a sentence or two what does a train manager do? Dosen't seem to be a bad job with the guard dealing with all the tickets etc but I am sure there is a catch!

 

[Zoe]

I would imagine guards on the Island line and self enclosed networks like C2C may be under threat...

Very few trains on c2c have guards, only the peak 12 car services.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Guards will eventually be disposed of. I'm very against it, but it's only a matter of time.

I agree on both fronts.

 

[313103]

There will always be a second member of staff on the longer distance trains.

As a Guard i would like to know why?

If your going to have widespread DOO, why have a Guard on longer distances............. Oh im sorry we have become from being a Guard to being second member of staff, no doubt without any training and be at the behest of the Drivers instructions. If that indeed is the case i would rather be out of a job. I can think for myself not wait for instructions from a driver.

 

[387star]

*rethinks becoming a guard*

 

[Zoe]

I don't think you can say there will always be a second member of staff. In the long term trains will most likely be driverless and the debate will then be if there needs to be a member of staff on board the train at all.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I work as a conductor on the following lines:

Reading - Basingstoke
Reading - Gatwick
Maidenhead-Marlow.

Stations classed as Category 'E' (that have ticket offices) are:

Reading - Basingstoke:

Reading West, Mortimer, Bramley

Reading - Gatwick

Crowthorne, North Camp, Ash.

Maidenhead - Marlow

Furze Platt, Cookham, Bourne End.

Under these proposals all of these ticket offices will close. On the RDG-BSK line the only places to purchase a ticket will Reading and Basingstoke. There was a machine at Mortimer but this was repeatedly stolen from and has not been returned. Bramley had one removed due to persistent thefts and the other is credit card only. During peak times if ANY of these offices are shut it makes getting through these trains nigh on impossible. If these offices are shut on this line and no-one on board during peak times then there will be large queues at both ends requiring tickets.

On the RDG-GTW line there will be a ticket office at Wokingham, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill and Gatwick. TVM's were removed from Crowthorne and Sandhurst due to persistent thefts. Blackwater, Farnborough North, North Camp, Ash, Wanborough, Shalford, Dorking Deepdene all have TVM's but are all card only due to the same reason. On this line during M-F peak if all facilities are working then you might be able to get into the fron carriage if you are lucky. Saturdays can be worse. When none of them are working then you have very little hope of getting out of the rear carriage and the queue at Reading excess window is huge!

The Maidenhead - Marlow branch most people buy from the conductor anyway.

These proposals will cause total chaos at Reading and other barriered stations. How are people going to be able to buy tickets from stations when offices are shut, TVM's don't work or don't accept certain payments and the conductor is no longer present? These proposals have not been thought through.

 

[BestWestern]

My company would save per annum £6.5 million in Conductors wages and possibly the same amount by de-staffing the stations. I would like to know how all these savings will benefit the passengers and more importantly if they are going to save my £26,000 portion of the above figure. I want to go to a good cause, not Government, not a quango a good cause.

I am glad that you will be happy to see thousands (and i am not scare mongering either) being put on the dole and living off the state.

This is a fair point; thousands of mandatory redundancies throughout the country will end up costing just as much as to continue employing us all, as well as causing a national media and union outcry, and doubtless promises to scrap the plans from the Opposition Government.

Sadly, staffing levels on the railway, and in particular the requirement for a Guard to be aboard, were always going to be an obvious target for any review. Salaries paid to train crew in particular are high, and have risen substantially during the privatisation era. When you consider that most of the TOCs are owned by parent companies who pay thousands of PCV drivers well under £10 per hour, a salary of £40k or so for a train driver starts to look a little excessive, and the same could be said of circa £30k for most Guards. Yes, the railway is far more specialised and will always see a higher rate of pay to reflect that, but the overall responsibility of those in charge of trains is no greater than of those in charge of tons of road vehicle packed with people; indeed errors have a far better chance of being mitigated by safety systems on the railway than they would on the roads.

DOO is not a short term option, as it simply isn't compatible with current ex-BR generation rolling stock. However, as a long term process of say 15 years or so, it looks like a real possibility. During this time most of this stock will be replaced (supposedly) or significantly upgraded, and alongside this we'll also see new, safer signalling, further reducing the onboard safety role. If the Government are serious about facing off the unions, the usual threat of stikes etc just might not wash any more, as well as being much harder to organise under new laws etc. All in all, speaking as a Guard myself, I'd have to admit that the worst case scenario doesn't look too good in the long term, though the immediate short term doesn't look too severe. Who knows what will change in the years ahead, let's just hope the 'cutting' climate improves somewhat!

 

[Yew]

Does said sir roy have actually any experience of rail travel? All he had to do was say scrap pacers, and maybe create some advance-season ticket hybrid. The drop peak fares to acceptable levels, ofr a slight increase peak times. Do you know why people dont travel rail? PRICE, Say If i wanted to go down to cornwall with a few mates. Would I take a train, when for the price of the ticket there for one of us, I could get petrol for both journeys for all four of us?

Honestly, he must know absolutely nothing about the british railway system. I wonder how much he got paid for this Bullsh*t



(sorry for sounding really angry in this post, but i beleive i could make a better reoprt in half an hour, even if it is without all these fancy graphs)

 

[Zoe]

Would I take a train, when for the price of the ticket there for one of us, I could get petrol for both journeys for all four of us?

It's not that simple these days though as people will need to take into account their carbon footprint when making such a choice.

 

[387star]

This is all well and good but people vote with their feet. How many jobs can disappear to mechanisation? There has to be a limit.

Then again it is a relief many people are stupid and can't use a self scan machine in supermarkets. One good reason why checkout workers will remain! And even with driverless operation more staff would have to be appointed elsewhere.

In the current conditions of money saving driverless would prove very expensive with the added safety risk there.

 

[WestCoast]

By the way this quote from the Guardian seemed such a paradox it made me laugh:

In northern England many people have to travel on 30-year-old adapted buses, whose gearboxes keep falling on to the tracks.

So what should be done? Scrap privatisation, say some. But it hasn't failed in every regard. Trains are better.

But it's up north so it doesn't matter. I don't expect that from a paper that was founded as the Manchester Guardian.

I think it is reasonable to suggest that regional services will become DOO some time in the fairly near future. That's not to say I agree with it.

Railways costs in this report are being set against those in mainland Europe. On some regional trains in Germany (mainly private operators contracted by regional administrations), there is just a driver and passengers purchase their tickets from an onboard TVM if they join at an unstaffed station. DB Regio has kept ticket examiners though, and I suggest this is probably the best way to go in the UK if guards are removed.

 

[Skimble19]

Guards are vital for passenger assistance, security and ticket fraud and without them passenger survey scores will plummet IMO

FCC is all DOO.. whether it and it's passenger survey scores would be any better if there were guards is debatable. Security isn't that bad on the trains themselves (excluding the late night drunks on all routes) - it's worse at stations if anything. Ticket fraud is fairly bad at stations without ticket barriers, but then many stations are being fitted with them, helping to increase security where it's currently low. As for passenger survey scores, FCC's problem is more down to their usually bad communication during disruption, somewhat over-priced fares and generally tatty appearance of trains (interiors) and stations.. I suppose it's very much a route based issue as to whether they're needed or not.

 

[notadriver]

As a Guard i would like to know why?

If your going to have widespread DOO, why have a Guard on longer distances............. Oh im sorry we have become from being a Guard to being second member of staff, no doubt without any training and be at the behest of the Drivers instructions. If that indeed is the case i would rather be out of a job. I can think for myself not wait for instructions from a driver.

Sorry I didn't mean to offend you 313103 - I'm just thinking the way the Javelins have gone with an on board manager is probably the future. The OBM gets near enough the same salary as a guard - they just don't have any operational responsabilities in normal services.

There is no way a train from London to Scotland would run with just the driver is there (within the next 20 years)

 

[WatcherZero]

Railways costs in this report are being set against those in mainland Europe. On some regional trains in Germany (mainly private operators contracted by regional administrations), there is just a driver and passengers purchase their tickets from an onboard TVM if they join at an unstaffed station. DB Regio has kept ticket examiners though, and I suggest this is probably the best way to go in the UK if guards are removed.

Interstingly one complaint ive heard is from a freind who said he couldnt get down more than a couple of coachs because every station he had to go back and operate the doors again, if he didnt have to do that he could ticket check the whole train.

 

[ainsworth74]

There is no way a train from London to Scotland would run with just the driver is there (within the next 20 years)

Not unless their is withdrawal of all catering in any form. Which even with the decline of on train catering I can't see happening anytime soon.

 

[notadriver]

I don't like the comparison of PCV drivers salaries and Train Driver salaries. They are completely different jobs. PCV training takes 4-6 weeks. Train drivers 9-12 months - more depending on routes and traction.

Train drivers are closer in job status to airline pilots than to bus/lorry drivers which are classed as 'Routine Occupations'

 

[FGWman]

There will still be ATE's Going back to the FGW conductor example Reading to Bedwyn is already DOO so Reading to Basingstoke could go DOO with ATE on the peak services.

 

[Masbroughlad]

There are just too many people who need to make profit in the fragmented, multi-layered private rail industry. It needs a sledge hammer appraoch - a new start!

Some TOCs have wanted to reduce staff numbers for a long time. When its law, I guess the opposition to say booking office closures, will have no voice.