Masks again

[John Luxton]

There will apparently be a review in 3 weeks time - remember 3 weeks to flatten the curve? This will still be here in 3 months time.
This ends when people want it to.

Exactly - why do people not wake up? NO is such an easy word to say.

The East Germans brought down the most repressive of European Governments in 1989 through their continued protests during the autumn of that year. To be honest no western european government has been anywhere near as repressive. Yet the majority continue to go along with what they are told to.

Why?

I put it down to the fact that people do not realise that their freedom is under threat and as the vast majority of western europeans are compliant middle of the road, law abiding people, the majority comply as they do not want to rock the boat. I would also extend this to the Australiasian regions which have probably seen an even greater imposition of restrictions.

All it needs is the confidence of enough people, and it does not have to be a majority, to take to the streets and or refuse to comply for all restrictions to end.

Cast your minds back to the 1990s when a few protestors in London ended the community charge. Now personally I always found the Community Charge a much fairer system, but it was interesting in how so few protestors ended the new charge.

Covid restrictions can be ended in the same manner. We just need to keep pushing. The people outnumber those that can control us.

I find it a bit difficult being a rebel as I am a normal law abiding person. Usually a member of the hang them / flog them brigade when it comes to normal crime and 100% behind the police and law enforcement.

But sadly when our police are being used as an instrument of state control as they have been during Covid I despair. I am sure there must be many police officers out there who in the past 19 months wish they had not been put into the position where government dictat has put them into conflict with people who would normally be their traditional supporters.

However, I think these officers need to now start questioning orders or at least doing a "Nelson" as we know like most they need to protect their income.

Remember it ends when we say NO

 

[yorksrob]

because it looks like there doing something to the groups that are concerned so govt is seen as caring

Indeed. My comfort is that I don't believe that the government actually believe in this and will try to get shot of it as soon as possible.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

No

Ah that's good then, wouldn't want to risk myself being stranded if I'm unable to board a bus because the number of people on it have reached the full reduced capacity.

 

[brad465]

You can also add to that list
5. Bexley by-election, where from what I understand Boris performance has been a salient issue. I doubt the seat will change hands (though with London as it is nowadays never rule it out), but a poor result would certainly have relevance to the fourth item on your list.

The mask move by Johnson could go either way for these by-election voters - what's worth remembering is Richard Tice is standing as the Reform UK candidate in that seat, and as he's someone very opposed to restrictions, he can now capitalise on this in the dying days of the campaign. Even if 15-20% of Tory supporters there don't like covid restrictions enough to vote for Tice that could swing the seat.

 

[Pete_uk]

I'm reading that masks are compulsory on public transport.
Great.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I don't think anyone has seriously suggested masks are totally effective. The problem is there are so many variables in play (non-compliance, exemptions, inconsistencies etc) that without some form of controlled experiment it is impossible to ascertain how effective, or not, they are. For example a 10% effective rate would not be noticed.

 

[Tomp94]

Let's all be thankful for now that we are not under full implementation of plan b (yet) because of

1. NI hike breaking manifesto pledge
2. "Temporarily" scrapping the triple lock on pensions, breaking manifesto pledge
3. Various sleaze scandals
4. Social Care scandal
5. Peppa Pig nonsense

If it wasn't for the above I reckon we'd have the vaccine passports like the rest of the UK.
It has thankfully been very politically difficult for the regime to implement the vaccine passports thus far.
But the announcement of the new scarient has focused regime minds on the real goal: plan b/ vaccine passports. They've thought to implement the least worst bits of plan b, which is the face coverings and the travel restrictions, which won't have any effect on most people. The review in three weeks will probably extend them to hospitality settings and all other public indoor settings. In the next review, which would be the second week of January, we could see the vaccine passports implemented in England. (if the regime doesn't do it sooner)

I thought the regime's propaganda outlets were playing their roles very well tonight, ramping up the fearmongering, and asking dumb pointless questions that help no one, wondering why the regime hasn't already fully implemented plan b yet.

 

[Iskra]

I'm reading that masks are compulsory on public transport.
Great.

I wonder if we will see a corresponding decrease in leisure travel, and what the treasury will make of it. This could have quite an impact on the railway.

 

[adc82140]

Only 54 MPs to trigger a leadership challenge yes, but if he survives it he's immune for a year, which is an even worse outcome than no challenge happening at the present time.

What if they then call a new variant leadership challenge. One that could potentially overcome that immunity?

 

[yorkie]

I'm reading that masks are compulsory on public transport.
Great.

Did you miss off a '' emoticon/smiley? I certainly hope so!

I wonder if we will see a corresponding decrease in leisure travel, and what the treasury will make of it. This could have quite an impact on the railway.

I've

I doubt it; people will either wear one or not, but will still travel either way. I would encourage people to live their lives normally.

I don't think anyone has seriously suggested masks are totally effective. The problem is there are so many variables in play (non-compliance, exemptions, inconsistencies etc) that without some form of controlled experiment it is impossible to ascertain how effective, or not, they are. For example a 10% effective rate would not be noticed.

If there was as much as a 10% reduction, why have Wales consistently had higher case rates then England after England removed its mask mandate?

And how did cases recently shoot up so rapidly in mask-mad places like Germany and Austria? It's difficult to see how the curve could have gone up any faster than it did in those places! Not to mention the rapid rises in places like Spain, Italy and many others in 2020 after mask mandates were introduced.

 

[John Luxton]

The mask move by Johnson could go either way for these by-election voters - what's worth remembering is Richard Tice is standing as the Reform UK candidate in that seat, and as he's someone very opposed to restrictions, he can now capitalise on this in the dying days of the campaign. Even if 15-20% of Tory supporters there don't like covid restrictions enough to vote for Tice that could swing the seat.

I am a traditional Tory, was a Tory before I could vote. Have stuck with the party through thick and thin and not even Brexit bothered me. Happy to go with the consensus even though I tended to support remain. However, Covid rules and Boris' neo Green Party style broke my link after decades. Even if Richard Tice's reform can't win in the forth coming by elections, I hope enough Tories support Tice to split the vote and at least let Labour in. That will send a shockwave through the Conservatives who must surely parcel Boris and his wife off to the no hope Green Party where they really belong.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I don't think anyone has seriously suggested masks are totally effective. The problem is there are so many variables in play (non-compliance, exemptions, inconsistencies etc) that without some form of controlled experiment it is impossible to ascertain how effective, or not, they are. For example a 10% effective rate would not be noticed.

Most of the studies I've seen seem to indicate about a 10% effectiveness (or that order of magnitude, anyway).

To me that doesn't seem to justify a policy which is inherently divisive and has such a huge visual impact on our daily lives.

Of course, my personal view is that masks are much more about psychology than epidemiology - they make us feel like we're in a pandemic and so may indirectly change behaviour. If the government want us to be worried about this latest variant then making us see masks everywhere will certainly do that, if only subconsciously.

 

[_toommm_]

Seems like I’ve got another Christmas of being run ragged in a supermarket and having to wear a face covering. I was doing 30,000 steps a day the week before Christmas last year, pulling heavy cages, lifting heavy boxes, and I really can’t be arsed having to do that with something over my mouth all the time.

 

[Darandio]

I hope enough Tories support him to split the vote and at least let Labour in.

God no, and until the farce that has been the last 18 months i'd been Labour all my life but if they got in they'd have us in permanent lockdown. I'm not even sure we have a viable option other than a coup so it's me and you John for the latter, we'll do a coin toss over who leads and who is deputy.

 

[yorksrob]

I am a traditional Tory, was a Tory before I could vote. Have stuck with the party through thick and thin and not even Brexit bothered me. Happy to go with the consensus even though I tended to support remain. However, Covid rules and Boris' neo Green Party style broke my link after decades. Even if Richard Tice's reform can't win in the forth coming by elections, I hope enough Tories support Tice to split the vote and at least let Labour in. That will send a shockwave through the Conservatives who must surely parcel Boris and his wife off to the no hope Green Party where they really belong.

But for the purposes of this thread, would a labour victory make such measures as masks less likely ?

 

[bramling]

I am a traditional Tory, was a Tory before I could vote. Have stuck with the party through thick and thin and not even Brexit bothered me. Happy to go with the consensus even though I tended to support remain. However, Covid rules and Boris' neo Green Party style broke my link after decades. Even if Richard Tice's reform can't win in the forth coming by elections, I hope enough Tories support Tice to split the vote and at least let Labour in. That will send a shockwave through the Conservatives who must surely parcel Boris and his wife off to the no hope Green Party where they really belong.

I suppose in a London by-election that could just about happen, a tall order though as the Conservative majority is quite large. Uxbridge is more vulnerable, and that could become a more salient issue as the next election approaches.

 

[yorkie]

Most of the studies I've seen seem to indicate about a 10% effectiveness (or that order of magnitude, anyway).

The studies that indicate such high amounts are theoretical in nature and not based on real world evidence.

But for the purposes of this thread, would a labour victory make such measures as masks less likely ?

Labour are the party of restrictions and many of their most vocal members seem to love masks and other restrictions. A vote for Labour is a vote for lockdowns and masks; I will remember that at the ballot box and will not be voting for Labour any time soon.

I feel like I need to vote for almost any party that is against restrictions even if I disagree with many of their other policies, to send a message to the major parties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2021 ==

Seems like I’ve got another Christmas of being run ragged in a supermarket and having to wear a face covering. I was doing 30,000 steps a day the week before Christmas last year, pulling heavy cages, lifting heavy boxes, and I really can’t be arsed having to do that with something over my mouth all the time.

Tell your employer you are exempt. You have every right to certify yourself as exempt. Do not comply with nonsense.

 

[bramling]

But for the purposes of this thread, would a labour victory make such measures as masks less likely ?

Who knows, but what it would do is strengthen concerns within the party as
to Johnson’s continued viability. He’s a total loose cannon, so getting rid of him can only be a good thing.

 

[yorksrob]

The studies that indicate such high amounts are theoretical in nature and not based on real world evidence.

Labour are the party of restrictions and many of their most vocal members seem to love masks and other restrictions. A vote for Labour is a vote for lockdowns and masks; I will remember that at the ballot box and will not be voting for Labour any time soon.

I feel like I need to vote for almost any party that is against restrictions even if I disagree with many of their other policies, to send a message to the major parties.

I have sympathy for a lot of labours policies, but I feel very wary of voting for them during the pandemic for the resasons that you cite.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2021 ==

Who knows, but what it would do is strengthen concerns within the party as
to Johnson’s continued viability. He’s a total loose cannon, so getting rid of him can only be a good thing.

Or would it make the party think "oh no, labour are beating us on covid, we need to get someone more Pro restriction in" !

 

[Peterthegreat]

To be honest I am not sure Labour, if in power, would actually be much different over Covid. If Labour were in power I am sure the Tories would be saying the government were not doing enough.

 

[Eyersey468]

I also don't believe this will make any tangible difference nor do I believe it will be repealed after 3 weeks.

 

[John Luxton]

God no, and until the farce that has been the last 18 months i'd been Labour all my life but if they got in they'd have us in permanent lockdown. I'm not even sure we have a viable option other than a coup so it's me and you John for the latter, we'll do a coin toss over who leads and who is deputy.

Even if Labour was let in during the coming by elections they would not have a majority but they would scare the rest of the Conservatives to get writing to the 1922 Committee to trigger a challenge. Personally I would like to see someone like Sir Desmond Swayne as leader who has been consistently anti restriction and anti lockdown

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2021 ==

I also don't believe this will make any tangible difference nor do I believe it will be repealed after 3 weeks.

Do you trust the three weeks?

Three weeks to flatten the curve?

Boris speaks with forked tongue

 

[brad465]

God no, and until the farce that has been the last 18 months i'd been Labour all my life but if they got in they'd have us in permanent lockdown. I'm not even sure we have a viable option other than a coup so it's me and you John for the latter, we'll do a coin toss over who leads and who is deputy.

But for the purposes of this thread, would a labour victory make such measures as masks less likely ?

Were Labour in power, voting for them in this by-election would make masks sticking around more likely. But they are not, where the governing party is defending the seat. The thing that is likely to make masks less likely is the Tories losing the seat (or possibly retaining it but with a close result), regardless of who wins it. That kind of result would be more likely to incite a change in leadership and/or course of action on the mask issue. If Labour win it they suddenly won't become the governing party.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I won’t comply, I won’t even wear a lanyard.

Im done with this nonsense, I really don’t care about Covid anymore.

The locktavists are no doubt celebrating this but I hope they’ll be laughing at the other side of their faces when few comply.

 

[John Luxton]

I won’t comply, I won’t even wear a lanyard.

Im done with this nonsense, I really don’t care about Covid anymore.

The locktavists are no doubt celebrating this but I hope they’ll be laughing at the other side of their faces when few comply.

With you 100%

 

[XAM2175]

I feel like I need to vote for almost any party that is against restrictions even if I disagree with many of their other policies, to send a message to the major parties.

The message it will send is that you agree with those other policies.

 

[yorksrob]

Were Labour in power, voting for them in this by-election would make masks sticking around more likely. But they are not, where the governing party is defending the seat. The thing that is likely to make masks less likely is the Tories losing the seat (or possibly retaining it but with a close result), regardless of who wins it. That kind of result would be more likely to incite a change in leadership and/or course of action on the mask issue. If Labour win it they suddenly won't become the governing party.

I don't share your belief, because I think labour genuinely believe in masks. This is transparent from the past two years and I suspect that a labour victory would be interpreted as wider public support for the policy.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Let's all be thankful for now that we are not under full implementation of plan b (yet) because of

1. NI hike breaking manifesto pledge
2. "Temporarily" scrapping the triple lock on pensions, breaking manifesto pledge
3. Various sleaze scandals
4. Social Care scandal
5. Peppa Pig nonsense

If it wasn't for the above I reckon we'd have the vaccine passports like the rest of the UK.
It has thankfully been very politically difficult for the regime to implement the vaccine passports thus far.
But the announcement of the new scarient has focused regime minds on the real goal: plan b/ vaccine passports. They've thought to implement the least worst bits of plan b, which is the face coverings and the travel restrictions, which won't have any effect on most people. The review in three weeks will probably extend them to hospitality settings and all other public indoor settings. In the next review, which would be the second week of January, we could see the vaccine passports implemented in England. (if the regime doesn't do it sooner)

I thought the regime's propaganda outlets were playing their roles very well tonight, ramping up the fearmongering, and asking dumb pointless questions that help no one, wondering why the regime hasn't already fully implemented plan b yet.

Only if BoJo needs to ratchet up the distraction against his own ineptness otherwise it won't happen. Don't be conned this a convenient proxy for his own failings.

 

[bramling]

Or would it make the party think "oh no, labour are beating us on covid, we need to get someone more Pro restriction in" !

I wouldn’t worry on that. The dis-satisfaction with Boris is largely for reasons not (directly) related to Covid, one of which being that he’s increasingly being seen as a liability. I say directly as there’s a lot of anger at many of the other things which have been slipped in off the back of it.

Anyone who has seen the Peppa Pig speech can do nothing other than cringe, and can hardly look at him and think he’s the best solution to the country’s many problems and issues.

 

[yorkie]

The message it will send is that you agree with those other policies.

I'm not so sure about that, but it may be a risk I am prepared to take. I will take each case on its own merits but I am absolutely very keen to punish the parties who called for, or introduced these measures.

To be honest I am not sure Labour, if in power, would actually be much different over Covid. If Labour were in power I am sure the Tories would be saying the government were not doing enough.

It would not be much different, but see Wales for an idea of what we could have had in England (Wales never lifted the mask mandate, introduced vaccine passports, did all sorts of other insane restrictions and yet has higher cases than England and has done ever since restrictions were lifted in England). There is now way I can vote a party like that.

I don't share your belief, because I think labour genuinely believe in masks. This is transparent from the past two years and I suspect that a labour victory would be interpreted as wider public support for the policy.

Agreed; I won't be voting for them, that's for sure.