Lumo driving standard

[Clarence Yard]

It's completely different.

The data belongs to the train company - granted. But its usage and access are strictly controlled for specific purposes. Each OTMR is stamped with the drivers identifier.

Driver managers can and do dip sample them and this is more than welcomed.

Anyone outside of the Driver chain doing it without a valid reason is unacceptable, furthermore to that all OTMR records are discussed with the driver for means of quality improvement.

You might not agree with it, but there it is.

Yes, it is different and it has to be. If I want a download, it has to be done through the driver manager chain and a specific reason given. I only ever see the section I am interested in, not the whole journey and that extract is always anonymised. Frequently, such a request has to have (at the very least) TOC director approval.

It isn’t quite true that all downloads are discussed with the driver. If it is a competence related matter it usually is but if it is a more general query it may not be. The kind of thing we are mainly talking about here is when a train planning query comes up over a point to point time and a few downloads are used to verify (or otherwise) the timing on that section. I remember the move to defensive driving threw up a number of those type of requests.

In essence it is the same kind of rule on requesting data that used to happen pre-OTMR except in those days the delay and casualty books held in various offices always had the drivers name (and turn no) recorded against the query. What OTMR introduction has done is bring, thankfully, more control over this type of data and the drivers name isn’t bandied about nearly as much as it used to be in olden days.

But the OTMR is a very powerful tool in general operating matters, it’s not just for driver competence (despite that being a major role for it) and never has been and the TOC has a general right to use the data. You just have to have a very valid reason for needing it, have that request properly authorised and recorded and be very careful in how you handle that type of information, even if it is anonymised.

 

[Rich1974]

Hi I'm new here so be kind ☺ If been driving for 24 years and have gone from trundling along at 90mph for almost all that time to now flying along at 125mph with class 800s, I've always aimed at passing a single yellow at about 45mph with the break in and felt comfortable at that, since driving along faster I seem to find myself now passing single yellows at 80/90mph with the break in, so yes if you had a nice coffee in hand and I'm driving you best hold on, the moment I get a double yellow I go in with the lot and then start taken the pressure off once I feel I've got the speed down to a more controlled speed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2022 ==

I’m pleased to hear that.

I would also hope that a decision to investigate would only be taken based on a formal complaint made by an identifiable individual, rather than just something written anonymously on here (I realise such a complaint might have been made in addition to the comments here). Apart from anything else it is likely to prove an enormous waste of management time otherwise, as this example has demonstrated.

My original point stands - I’m surprised a train driver of all people would feel the need to complain about a train driver braking normally for signal aspects!!!



The OP does not have a point because (assuming we can believe any of what has been written above) they were investigated and found to be driving normally. Keeping in mind the audience on here do you *really* want to encourage them to complain and seek explanation everytime some aspect of perfectly normal driving is not to their liking?

I had to brake sharpish from 120 for a 50 TSR which came up quicker than expected the other day… All perfectly normal and nobody batted an eyelid. Would I want to then read about it on here because an enthusiast had decided there was something wrong with my driving? Good grief.

You'll probably find drivers that report others for (in their opinion) rough driving etc have only been doing the job 5 minutes, I've seen these types many times, they become very unpopular and eventually end up on the platforms after cocking up. I'd never go on a public forum and bring it up, it's a small world and it'll only be a matter of time before they get known in the messroom, and we all know the rest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2022 ==

I also agree the OP has a point. I'm a driver, and recently travelling passenger experienced an abysmally driven 802 along the B and H. It actually gave me backache due to the constant on and off the power and brake . 80x is a relatively simple traction to drive, but if driven "lazily" doesn't half give a bad ride. Thankfully the vast majority of first group employed 80x drivers do an excellent job.

Mate I know 800s are quick compared to HSTs etc, but I wouldn't have thought the braking and powering would bad enough to give you back ache.

 

[irish_rail]

Mate I know 800s are quick compared to HSTs etc, but I wouldn't have thought the braking and powering would bad enough to give you back acache

I think I know my own body and when I'm constantly being flung forward by heavy sudden braking , seemingly randomly then yes it is a far from pleasant experience. God knows what the fare paying passengers must think.
BTW if you are going past single yellows at 90mph on a regular basis I wish you luck with your future driving career......

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Lumo 803s are very quick off the mark, partly down to less weight of the trains. No gensets, they are straight electric so that will save a few tons. London to newcastle in under 2h30 is pretty good going but i didnt feel or see anything amiss about the nature or ability of the driver when i travelled. Lack of luggage racks is a concern tho

 

[hexagon789]

Lumo 803s are very quick off the mark, partly down to less weight of the trains. No gensets, they are straight electric so that will save a few tons. London to newcastle in under 2h30 is pretty good going but i didnt feel or see anything amiss about the nature or ability of the driver when i travelled. Lack of luggage racks is a concern tho

The batteries add weight though, and the 80x traction packages are set up to give an average acceleration rate - ie 801s on electric are not quicker off the mark than 800s on electric despite the weight difference. I imagine 803s are the same.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2022 ==

 

[43066]

BTW if you are going past single yellows at 90mph on a regular basis I wish you luck with your future driving career......

To be fair that would be quite normal on 3 aspect sections. A little “sporting” on 4 aspect, for sure!

 

[craigybagel]

To be fair that would be quite normal on 3 aspect sections. A little “sporting” on 4 aspect, for sure!

My toes start curling a little if I go past the single yellow at more than 45! Granted though that's only driving 100mph units on a 110mph railway. Are 800s really so good that 90 on a single yellow is ok? I assume the discussion is about 4 aspect since surely on 3 aspect the signals are placed so that you can pass a single yellow at line speed and have enough space to stop - so even 125 would be ok if that's the line speed? You don't have a target speed - you see the yellow and put the brake in.

 

[Rich1974]

Think I need to explain myself here alittle better, before learning IETs I was use to a 4 step brake and the use of step 1 is fine to bring the speed down when being cautioned. IETs don't have this so it's hard to tell roughly what the equivalent is, when I first started driving IETs I found I was breaking at the double yellow and often (not always as it depends on signal distances) approaching the single yellow at 80mph, I found this rather alarming and even more so in the wet so started to change the way I drive, now the moment I get a double yellow I brake alot harder (weather depending as the harder you brake the more you slip) to get the speed off to a comfortable and controlled level then start braking lighter.
As for someone saying about my career not lasting long well I've managed 24 years driving so I must be doing something right, anyways I hope this clears things up alittle.

 

[niggill617@gma]

Oh god no don't engage. It'll derail the thread into some unintelligible ranting about how drivers should be au fait with all the underlying theoretical physics of acceleration, deceleration and anything else you care to mention.

Complete U turn to that of the former Office of Rail Regulation, and schedule 5 of TDLCR.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Think I need to explain myself here alittle better, before learning IETs I was use to a 4 step brake and the use of step 1 is fine to bring the speed down when being cautioned. IETs don't have this so it's hard to tell roughly what the equivalent is, when I first started driving IETs I found I was breaking at the double yellow and often (not always as it depends on signal distances) approaching the single yellow at 80mph, I found this rather alarming and even more so in the wet so started to change the way I drive, now the moment I get a double yellow I brake alot harder (weather depending as the harder you brake the more you slip) to get the speed off to a comfortable and controlled level then start braking lighter.
As for someone saying about my career not lasting long well I've managed 24 years driving so I must be doing something right, anyways I hope this clears things up alittle.

IETs are astonishing units when it comes to braking - I was at the London End of Platform 4 at Swindon the other week, and the driver absolutely flew into the platform and stopped correctly on the marker for the unit.
Yes, there is always an argument for defensive driving as other people are screaming about in the thread - but if a driver feels comfortable enough pootling along at those sorts of speeds, and hasn’t triggered any TPWS OSS+ sensors or caused any risk to safety in terms of exceeding speed limits etc, then it must be right.

I myself drive buses, and I’m perfectly happy hurtling myself down tight country lanes or tight residential streets in double-deckers hugging the speed limit in torrential rain, like I did the other day, if I can assure myself that the performance of my brakes is adequate; I know the road well (like railway route-learning) and I’m fully comfortable that I’m driving to conditions and not needlessly slowing.

The GWML, with its 140mph-capable running (and will be once ETCS kicks in) + spaced-out signalling in some areas + confident drivers are not a risk in my opinion; the different braking aspects of IETs, with more confident drivers are producing some astonishing journey times which the signalling cannot keep up with at its maximum throughput.

 

[hexagon789]

IETs are astonishing units when it comes to braking - I was at the London End of Platform 4 at Swindon the other week, and the driver absolutely flew into the platform and stopped correctly on the marker for the unit.

In the dry, plenty of drivers have mentioned how readily they slide in even just the damp.

 

[43066]

I myself drive buses, and I’m perfectly happy hurtling myself down tight country lanes or tight residential streets in double-deckers hugging the speed limit in torrential rain, like I did the other da

Blimey.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Blimey.

I’ve been trained to standards that are way above most regular drivers - if I’m personally sure of my vehicle, as well as the safety of myself and everyone behind me, and that I’m not breaking any restrictions - I don’t see an issue.

I’ve grown up in the UK, where there is always heavy rain, and if I have adequate spacing between myself and other vehicles on the road + adequate grip - then I’m fine in my eyes.
However, if I start feeling myself aquaplane (which is quite scary in a 13-14 tonne vehicle!), then of course I will slow down. We’re told that running times are not prioritised over safety, and that’s the mantra I take.
I won’t risk my passengers to make up 1 minute…

I’ve had my data pulled via an equivalent of OTMR before, and it’s shown that I’ve not put anyone or anything at risk.

 

[Nottingham59]

Are 800s really so good that 90 on a single yellow is ok?

A train at 90mph has exactly half the kinetic energy of one at 125mph. So if you start braking at a double yellow, at a constant deceleration, then you will be going 90mph at the single yellow and come to a stop at the red. So very smooth, but it's not defensive driving which would involve harder braking in the first section and easing off in the second.

 

[notadriver]

I’ve been trained to standards that are way above most regular drivers - if I’m personally sure of my vehicle, as well as the safety of myself and everyone behind me, and that I’m not breaking any restrictions - I don’t see an issue.

I’ve grown up in the UK, where there is always heavy rain, and if I have adequate spacing between myself and other vehicles on the road + adequate grip - then I’m fine in my eyes.
However, if I start feeling myself aquaplane (which is quite scary in a 13-14 tonne vehicle!), then of course I will slow down. We’re told that running times are not prioritised over safety, and that’s the mantra I take.
I won’t risk my passengers to make up 1 minute…

I’ve had my data pulled via an equivalent of OTMR before, and it’s shown that I’ve not put anyone or anything at risk.

May I ask in what way you are trained to standards above most drivers? Are you a train driver as well as a bus driver ?

 

[Efini92]

A train at 90mph has exactly half the kinetic energy of one at 125mph. So if you start braking at a double yellow, at a constant deceleration, then you will be going 90mph at the single yellow and come to a stop at the red. So very smooth, but it's not defensive driving which would involve harder braking in the first section and easing off in the second.

Does that not depend on the signal spacings?

Indeed.

If I was still repping I would hit the roof if I found this sort of monitoring taking place outside of driver development/competency management.

I'd go as far to say it's grounds for a dispute - management and staff sides are required to be transparent in this sort of thing. All our downloads are added to the competency system if they are viewed.

Dangerous game to play to be honest.

When were you a rep?

 

[ExRes]

May I ask in what way you are trained to standards above most drivers? Are you a train driver as well as a bus driver ?

I would hope that a PCV driver was trained to a higher level than the 'average' car driver, if not then you certainly wouldn't get me on a bus

 

[Nottingham59]

Does that not depend on the signal spacings?

I was assuming regular signal spacings

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Are you a train driver as well as a bus driver ?

Bloody well wish I was, the wages would definitely be paying off the bills right now…

 

[tiptoptaff]

I was assuming regular signal spacings

There's no such thing

 

[43066]

Bloody well wish I was, the wages would definitely be paying off the bills right now…

Apply!

In the meantime, don’t thrash around at top speed. The speed limit isn’t a target. Drive defensively .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2022 ==

My toes start curling a little if I go past the single yellow at more than 45! Granted though that's only driving 100mph units on a 110mph railway. Are 800s really so good that 90 on a single yellow is ok? I assume the discussion is about 4 aspect since surely on 3 aspect the signals are placed so that you can pass a single yellow at line speed and have enough space to stop - so even 125 would be ok if that's the line speed? You don't have a target speed - you see the yellow and put the brake in.

Sorry I missed this the other day.

I don’t (yet) sign 800s, but on 125mph stretches of line, as a rule of thumb, I aim for 80mph at a YY and 60 at a Y. Obviously a little higher/lower depending on sighting. TPWS+ would be a concern if flying passing Y signals at 90mph.

Three aspect is still odd after a few years of driving to it - at a location I sign, rounding a curve at 115mph, you can see the single yellow and the red in the distance. That makes you brake quite hard and sod what anyone in the back thinks!

 

[craigybagel]

A train at 90mph has exactly half the kinetic energy of one at 125mph. So if you start braking at a double yellow, at a constant deceleration, then you will be going 90mph at the single yellow and come to a stop at the red. So very smooth, but it's not defensive driving which would involve harder braking in the first section and easing off in the second.

Learn something new every day. I know very little about physics but there's an interesting read.

Sorry I missed this the other day.

I don’t sign 800s, but on 125mph stretches of line, as a rule of thumb, I aim for 80mph at a YY and 60 at a Y. Obviously a little higher/lower depending on sighting. TPWS+ would be a concern if flying passing Y signals at 90mph.

Three aspect is still odd - rounding a curve at 115mph, you can see the single yellow and the red in the distance. That makes you brake quite hard and sod what anyone in the back thinks!

One of the things I'm grateful for is that none of the higher speed stuff I sign is 3 aspect (95 max) - I know in theory it shouldn't make any difference but as you say, it does sound rather odd.

 

[43066]

One of the things I'm grateful for is that none of the higher speed stuff I sign is 3 aspect (95 max) - I know in theory it shouldn't make any difference but as you say, it does sound rather odd.

It still seems very odd to me! I did metro work before and would do 40mph YY and 30 at a Y. Signal sections now are rather longer, of course.

People seem to trip grids a fair bit where I am now, and station overruns are a thing, so you can’t take your eye off the ball.

 

[niggill617@gma]

IETs are astonishing units when it comes to braking - I was at the London End of Platform 4 at Swindon the other week, and the driver absolutely flew into the platform and stopped correctly on the marker for the unit.
Yes, there is always an argument for defensive driving as other people are screaming about in the thread - but if a driver feels comfortable enough pootling along at those sorts of speeds, and hasn’t triggered any TPWS OSS+ sensors or caused any risk to safety in terms of exceeding speed limits etc, then it must be right.

I myself drive buses, and I’m perfectly happy hurtling myself down tight country lanes or tight residential streets in double-deckers hugging the speed limit in torrential rain, like I did the other day, if I can assure myself that the performance of my brakes is adequate; I know the road well (like railway route-learning) and I’m fully comfortable that I’m driving to conditions and not needlessly slowing.

The GWML, with its 140mph-capable running (and will be once ETCS kicks in) + spaced-out signalling in some areas + confident drivers are not a risk in my opinion; the different braking aspects of IETs, with more confident drivers are producing some astonishing journey times which the signalling cannot keep up with at its maximum throughput.

HST and IET with regard to service braking rates, (not emergency selection) are actually similar, contrary to popular understanding. The main difference is controllability, which makes the IET superior to that end.

Some locations re TPWS are designed for freight risk not passenger. This means the trip speed for passenger may well be higher than the passenger line speed. Risk management has a preference for defensive driving. I must admit I wonder why have traction with high service braking rates, only to be discouraged from using it. Carte blanche is dangerous I guess? Emergency rate and selection is of course a different matter.

Many defensive drivers are very confident, and run to time given the pathway.

A driver that brakes using full service from 125 mph will save 18 seconds, compared to the defensive driver braking at 6 percent g. Thus after 3 stops only 54 seconds gained, along with substantial risk. Some high speed locations require high braking rates, if the sighting and spacing of signals is short. Numerous station stops will also be subject to other factors.

Drivers that brake using full service on a regular basis, would fit in with the aviation saying "old and bold". The said pilots are like rocking horse ----.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2022 ==

Oh god no don't engage. It'll derail the thread into some unintelligible ranting about how drivers should be au fait with all the underlying theoretical physics of acceleration, deceleration and anything else you care to mention.

My concerns have been noted, and will be considered as part of the forthcoming 5 year review. Not interested in acceleration, or anything else for that matter, just deceleration calculation as mandated. All the fancy psychometric tests, yet some drivers don't even understand the units of deceleration.

 

[43066]

Many defensive drivers are very confident, and run to time given the pathway.

A driver that brakes using full service from 125 mph will save 18 seconds, compared to the defensive driver braking at 6 percent g. Thus after 3 stops only 54 seconds gained, along with substantial risk. Some high speed locations require high braking rates, if the sighting and spacing of signals is short. Numerous station stops will also be subject to other factors.

Drivers that brake using full service on a regular basis, would fit in with the aviation saying "old and bold". The said pilots are like rocking horse ----.

Agree with this. There are no prizes for arriving early, however you *will* get the sack if you go around tripping TPWS grids left right and centre!

Timetables are such that it’s possible to run on time without driving unduly aggressively.

 

[ComUtoR]

I must admit I wonder why have traction with high service braking rates, only to be discouraged from using it.

Passenger comfort is also a factor.

All the fancy psychometric tests, yet some drivers don't even understand the units of deceleration.

I'm not sure if you understand why the psychometric tests are undertaken. Quote here taken from RIS-3751-TOM Rail Industry Standard for Train Driver Selection. The document is available from the RSSB website.

2.1 Selection criteria
2.1.1 Railway undertakings shall apply valid selection criteria to select suitable persons for train driving work.
2.1.2 Railway undertakings shall derive the selection criteria from: a) The physical demands of the operation on train drivers. b) The aptitudes and mental abilities identified as necessary to ensure competent train driving, after the appropriate training and development has taken place.

 

[TheEdge]

All the fancy psychometric tests, yet some drivers don't even understand the units of deceleration.

So in your world its more important an aspiring driver can describe the theoretical definition and properties of acceleration and m/s2 rather than prove they can concentrate while performing repetitive tasks and perform them accurately repeatedly?

 

[LCC106]

We don’t get trained in any depth on units of deceleration so there mustn’t be a requirement by TOCs and industry bodies to understand them to any great degree.

 

[the sniper]

I'm not sure if you understand why the psychometric tests are undertaken. Quote here taken from RIS-3751-TOM Rail Industry Standard for Train Driver Selection. The document is available from the RSSB website.

All those fancy physics, but doesn't understand the purpose of the psychometric tests, gosh...

 

[greatkingrat]

Complete U turn to that of the former Office of Rail Regulation, and schedule 5 of TDLCR.

What is the "white pages of the working manual for rail staff" supposed to refer to?