Longest sleeper train rake and shortest rake

[hexagon789]

Did I imagine it, or did the Glasgow-Plymouth sleeper run through to Penzance at certain times? I swear that in about 1995 my dad dropped off his girlfriend at the time onto a Glasgow sleeper at St Erth?

It did at one point, you aren't imagining it but I think only on Summer Saturdays.

The Scotland/South West sleeper ended in 1994 IIRC though.

 

[RPI]

It did at one point, you aren't imagining it but I think only on Summer Saturdays.

The Scotland/South West sleeper ended in 1994 IIRC though.

Thanks, I was beginning to wonder whether it was some sort of cheese dream I'd had! Certainly would have been 93-95, I was about ten at the time.

 

[AY1975]

After Mk3s replaced Mk1s, the Scottish internal sleeper was normally one coach for each flow on a 5-day cycle (Edinburgh-Inverness, Inverness-Glasgow, Glasgow-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Inverness, Inverness-Edinburgh), plus 3 coaches for the seated portion - TSO-BSO-TSO, equivalent to one of the HML "half-sets".

As I recall at least after Mark 3 sleepers replaced Mark 1s, the Euston-Manchester/Liverpool sleeper set was a similar formation to the Scottish internals, something like one sleeper, two TSOs and a BSO in each portion, with the two portions dividing and combining at Stafford. I would guess that the Barrow-in-Furness and Holyhead sleepers were similar to this as well.

Not sure if the Midland Region had any Sleeper Composites (SLCs) in Mark 1 days. If they did, I would guess that, at least latterly, the Manchester and Liverpool sleeper would have had a SLC in each portion along with a small number of ordinary seated Mark 1s. If there were no SLCs on the Midland, I would presume it was one Sleeper First and one Sleeper Second for each destination.

 

[AndrewE]

The barrow was a train in its own right in 1979: (I can't find a Holyhead sleeper departure.)

 

[hexagon789]

The barrow was a train in its own right in 1979: (I can't find a Holyhead sleeper departure.)

View attachment 184744

0107 Holyhead to Euston, just one sleeping car - an SLCT

 

[The exile]

I may be wrong here but I've a vague idea that, at least initially, the Poole portion was technically Edinburgh / Poole with the other part being Glasgow / Plymouth.

I assume if that is correct then I assume either they continued as before but now with one portion going to Poole instead of the West Country, or the Edinburgh section had a shorter Plymouth portion within it, maybe just two sleeping cars, thus equalling 16 vehicles in all.

Definitely through sleeper and day coach (at least one of each) West Country - Edinburgh in Spring 1989.

 

[hexagon789]

Definitely through sleeper and day coach (at least one of each) West Country - Edinburgh in Spring 1989.

Unfortunately no 1988 or '89 CWN to view, so can't look up the booked formation as per '87.

 

[AndrewE]

0107 Holyhead to Euston, just one sleeping car - an SLCT

You are right, I didn't think to look for such a "late" departure. Not only that train - loading 13 including 1 van, but also just ahead of it (May to September) an 0053 MX train to Euston loading 12 including 2 BSKs! And in addition to all that, an 0125 Holyhead to Birmingham loading 9 including 2 BSKs again. An aggregate of 1255 second-class seats, at 1 in the morning from Holyhead!

 

[hexagon789]

You are right, I didn't think to look for such a "late" departure. Not only that train - loading 13 including 1 van, but also just ahead of it (May to September) an 0053 MX train to Euston loading 12 including 2 BSKs! And in addition to all that, an 0125 Holyhead to Birmingham loading 9 including 2 BSKs again. An aggregate of 1255 second-class seats, at 1 in the morning from Holyhead!

View attachment 184752

I remembered that Holyhead had a lot of "oddly" timed services to/from Euston because of the boat traffic, so I thought a sleeper might operate in the wee small hours rather than say 2200/2300 as would be more common.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Not sure if the Midland Region had any Sleeper Composites (SLCs) in Mark 1 days. If they did, I would guess that, at least latterly, the Manchester and Liverpool sleeper would have had a SLC in each portion along with a small number of ordinary seated Mark 1s. If there were no SLCs on the Midland, I would presume it was one Sleeper First and one Sleeper Second for each destination.

In addition to Preston and Holyhead mentioned above in the mid /late 70s the Glasgow - Nottingham conveyed SLC and SLS although I only ever recall seeing the SLC occupied - maybe I missed busy days when both sleeping cars were actually used.
LMR also provided the SLC Euston to Oban in the 1960s which was the single sleeping car referred to in post22.
I also travelled on the Euston Manchester in Mk1 days and as far as I can recall that was a single SLC as suggested, Liverpool would almost certainly be likewise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

I remembered that Holyhead had a lot of "oddly" timed services to/from Euston because of the boat traffic, so I thought a sleeper might operate in the wee small hours rather than say 2200/2300 as would be more common.

In the 1974 TT there was only about half an hour between the up sleeping car departing Holyead (01.10) and the down one arriving (01.42). The ferry arrived 00.15 and departed 03.15. I often wondered hust how many passengers travelling to Ireland used the sleeper and how many were only travelling to Holyhead itself.

 

[Rescars]

You are right, I didn't think to look for such a "late" departure. Not only that train - loading 13 including 1 van, but also just ahead of it (May to September) an 0053 MX train to Euston loading 12 including 2 BSKs! And in addition to all that, an 0125 Holyhead to Birmingham loading 9 including 2 BSKs again. An aggregate of 1255 second-class seats, at 1 in the morning from Holyhead!

View attachment 184752

Does anyone know if the RBK was open for business at that time in the morning? A bit early for breakfast, surely?

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know if the RBK was open for business at that time in the morning? A bit early for breakfast, surely?

Usually it would say if unstaffed in the Carriage Working but rather than trusting it to be completely accurate I looked up the GBTT - given as buffet service throughout, but not a restaurant.

 

[AndrewE]

IIn the 1974 TT there was only about half an hour between the up sleeping car departing Holyead (01.10) and the down one arriving (01.42). The ferry arrived 00.15 and departed 03.15. I often wondered hust how many passengers travelling to Ireland used the sleeper and how many were only travelling to Holyhead itself.

In the state that Holyhead is now, probably nobody was actually going there! Although there might have been some Sealink staff turning up for a job on a ship starting later in the day. Mustn't forget Anglesey Aluminium and also Wylfa power station, both might well have had bigwigs visiting and using the sleepers.
Given the proximity of Valley airfield I suspect quite a few pax would have slept in until a staff car came to collect them... probably AA and the power station people too.

 

[181]

I don't know if it was the shortest, but the Poole sleeper in the early 1990's only had four carriages:

Front to rear:

BFK
TSO
SLE or SLEP*
SLE or SLEP*

*Usual pairing was one each of SLEP and SLE with the pantry on the SLEP marshalled against the SLE so the attendant was located centrally between the two sleepers they were tending.

I may be wrong here but I've a vague idea that, at least initially, the Poole portion was technically Edinburgh / Poole with the other part being Glasgow / Plymouth.

I assume if that is correct then I assume either they continued as before but now with one portion going to Poole instead of the West Country, or the Edinburgh section had a shorter Plymouth portion within it, maybe just two sleeping cars, thus equalling 16 vehicles in all.

The 1987 arrangement for each portion was:

NHA
BSO or BFK (alternating)
2 TSO
SLE*
SLEP*
SLE *

*sleepers between Scotland & Bristol only.

When I travelled from Basingstoke to Glasgow in February 1990, the whole train went into Glasgow, reversed there and continued to Edinburgh, but I don't know when that started. The Poole portion was, as stated above, very short (I had a vague picture in my mind of it only being 3 vehicles, but that's likely to be wrong if the other evidence indicates 4).

Did any sleepers have Motorail vans attached? I know they were on West Coast trains after Crewe-Glasgow electrification but I think only day trains.

In the heyday of Motorail I think it mostly used dedicated trains (often with open flat wagons rather than vans), including overrnight ones with sleeping cars. I don't know to what extent the later inclusion of Motorail vans in ordinary trains included sleepers, but when I travelled overnight from Euston to Fort William in June 1991 there were Motorail vans (2 or 3 if I remember rightly) in the same portion of the train.

 

[Rescars]

Usually it would say if unstaffed in the Carriage Working but rather than trusting it to be completely accurate I looked up the GBTT - given as buffet service throughout, but not a restaurant.

Must have been a fun job for whoever was staffing it, but a nice little earner. Not quite the same glamour as the anglo-scottish Nightcap Bar!

 

[hexagon789]

Must have been a fun job for whoever was staffing it, but a nice little earner. Not quite the same glamour as the anglo-scottish Nightcap Bar!

Maybe not but the 0107 was the famous Irish Mail, perhaps a touch of faded importance remained...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In the heyday of Motorail I think it mostly used dedicated trains (often with open flat wagons rather than vans), including overrnight ones with sleeping cars. I don't know to what extent the later inclusion of Motorail vans in ordinary trains included sleepers, but when I travelled overnight from Euston to Fort William in June 1991 there were Motorail vans (2 or 3 if I remember rightly) in the same portion of the train.

For many years Kings Cross attached Motorail GUVs and TCVs to departures to Aberdeen and Edinburgh (?posibly Newcastle too?), and one of the Edinburgh trains included a Motorail GUV which went forward to Perth. In the main the dedicated Motorail trains were seasonal whereas these ran all year, likewise that from Crewe to Inverness.

Euston to Fort William was a much later addition (late 80's?) and I think only ran for a few years.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This thread is absolutely fascinating. I wonder how this complexity compared with the domestic (and international!) sleeper services you could still see all over France in the late 1990s / early 2000s. I certainly remember seeing overnight motorail trains to the Mediterranean coast at Paris Lyon/Bercy in summer 2000/01 with corresponding sleeper trains on the departures board.

 

[Alfie1014]

In 1965 it was formed thus leaving Paddington:

3 BG-type vans, ONE sleeper, two day coaches and 9 other assorted vans.

It shed various vans en route at at Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Carmarthen etc on different nights of the week.

This ultimately left just the two day coaches, the sole sleeping car and, Mondays only, a van to reach Milford Haven.

Myself and friend travelled on the down service at Easter 1983 here it is at Milford Haven with at least 4 vehicles because we definitely travelled down in a sleeping car.

View attachment 1983 Colour 0026.jpeg

 

[jimm]

I mean to be fair that's just the Poole portion. The Fort William was similarly 4 coaches.

After Mk3s replaced Mk1s, the Scottish internal sleeper was normally one coach for each flow on a 5-day cycle (Edinburgh-Inverness, Inverness-Glasgow, Glasgow-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Inverness, Inverness-Edinburgh), plus 3 coaches for the seated portion - TSO-BSO-TSO, equivalent to one of the HML "half-sets".

Bear in mind that until the Royal Mail cut back its use of trains in 1986 (or thereabouts) and the newspaper traffic went over to lorries about the same time, this train also conveyed several BGs, so typically loaded to 10 coaches, with even more BGs added for the Christmas post.

There are accounts at the link below of typical Edinburgh/Glasgow-Invernesss overnight formations in the mid-1980s, including how the full-length train was formed up at Perth and split at Inverness - with a couple of the BGs transferred to the early train to Wick and Thurso - and just how long the formation could be in December

Rail Thing - Scottish Region | Hoping for some help with a formation from the mid 80s | Facebook

Hoping for some help with a formation from the mid 80s. I can remember the Glasgow QS to Inverness sleeper which stopped at Perth. Would anyone know the actual makeup of the coaching stock as I want...

www.facebook.com

 

[hexagon789]

Bear in mind that until the Royal Mail cut back its use of trains in 1986 (or thereabouts) and the newspaper traffic went over to lorries about the same time, this train also conveyed several BGs, so typically loaded to 10 coaches, with even more BGs added for the Christmas post.

There are accounts at the link below of typical Edinburgh/Glasgow-Invernesss overnight formations in the mid-1980s, including how the full-length train was formed up at Perth and split at Inverness - with a couple of the BGs transferred to the early train to Wick and Thurso - and just how long the formation could be in December

Rail Thing - Scottish Region | Hoping for some help with a formation from the mid 80s | Facebook

Hoping for some help with a formation from the mid 80s. I can remember the Glasgow QS to Inverness sleeper which stopped at Perth. Would anyone know the actual makeup of the coaching stock as I want...

www.facebook.com

I don't think that post is quite right as they've mixed Mk1 only designations (SK and CK) with Mk3 sleeper designations.

The Mk3 sleepers only worked with Mk2 seated vehicles and the Mk1 BGs as you mention.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I don't think that post is quite right as they've mixed Mk1 only designations (SK and CK) with Mk3 sleeper designations.

The Mk3 sleepers only worked with Mk2 seated vehicles and the Mk1 BGs as you mention.

When the Mk3 sleepers were introduced and requiring air braked TSO/BSO in the formation the vans previously attached at Perth ran as a separate VB train to Inverness until the demise of mail and newspaper traffic.

 

[hexagon789]

When the Mk3 sleepers were introduced and requiring air braked TSO/BSO in the formation the vans previously attached at Perth ran as a separate VB train to Inverness until the demise of mail and newspaper traffic.

Sorry, I wasn't arguing about the inclusion of Vans but the accuracy of the types of vehicles listed in that FB post.

Apologies for any confusion.

 

[Gloster]

For a short period, late 1970s to early 1980s, the Down Penzance Sleepers (the ‘Owl’ if I remember correctly) loaded up to fourteen, so the Motorail GUV went down on the newspaper train that left later but reached Penzance first.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Sorry, I wasn't arguing about the inclusion of Vans but the accuracy of the types of vehicles listed in that FB post.

Apologies for any confusion.

Likewise my apologies, I was just trying to add info re the impact of the change to Mk3s.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Slightly different topic but when was the last time a sleeper portion (in service) was booked to be carried by an otherwise ’day train’ service? I recently watched a video about a recently reinstated domestic sleeper service within France and the actual sleeper portions only have a relatively short run to/from their country-end origin/destination stations - the bulk of the journey is made attached to the first Up intercity and last down intercity working between Paris and Brive-la-Gaillarde.

When did the U.K. last have something similar? One could imagine in loco-hauled intercity days the first/last service between Euston and Carlisle doing something similar for Stranraer or Perth but of course this is wishful thinking

 

[Gloster]

Slightly different topic but when was the last time a sleeper portion (in service) was booked to be carried by an otherwise ’day train’ service? I recently watched a video about a recently reinstated domestic sleeper service within France and the actual sleeper portions only have a relatively short run to/from their country-end origin/destination stations - the bulk of the journey is made attached to the first Up intercity and last down intercity working between Paris and Brive-la-Gaillarde.

When did the U.K. last have something similar? One could imagine in loco-hauled intercity days the first/last service between Euston and Carlisle doing something similar for Stranraer or Perth but of course this is wishful thinking

That looks like the Aurillac and Rodez sleepers, with the latter going on to/starting from Albi on Fridays/Sundays. 19.27 Austerlitz arrives Brive 00.01 and the 04.58 Brive reaches Austerlitz at 09.32.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

That looks like the Aurillac and Rodez sleepers, with the latter going on to/starting from Albi on Fridays/Sundays. 19.27 Austerlitz arrives Brive 00.01 and the 04.58 Brive reaches Austerlitz at 09.32.

Thats the one!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Slightly different topic but when was the last time a sleeper portion (in service) was booked to be carried by an otherwise ’day train’ service? I recently watched a video about a recently reinstated domestic sleeper service within France and the actual sleeper portions only have a relatively short run to/from their country-end origin/destination stations - the bulk of the journey is made attached to the first Up intercity and last down intercity working between Paris and Brive-la-Gaillarde.

When did the U.K. last have something similar? One could imagine in loco-hauled intercity days the first/last service between Euston and Carlisle doing something similar for Stranraer or Perth but of course this is wishful thinking

The Kings Cross / latterly Euston to Fort William sleepers were conveyed on the morning Glasgow to Mallaig service and evening return, admittedly not an Inter City service but very much a day train service although, whilst the it could be argued without the sleepers the timings might have been different - as is the case today, the down train also conveyed mails and newspapers for deliveries / sales that morning, and until some time in the 70's this train connected with the Stornoway Mail Boat which left Mallaig at 12.15 so there was no scope to run the train later (the alternative of catching the Stornoway boat at Kyle would mean travelling overnight from Glasgow to Inverness!).

There was also the 07.00 Newcastle to Edinburgh which conveyed two sleeping cars off the 01.00 Kings Cross - Newcastle giving more 'civilised' arrival times at stations in Northumberland and East Lothian plus the opion of a very 'late night 'departure from London to Edinburgh.

 

[jimm]

I don't think that post is quite right as they've mixed Mk1 only designations (SK and CK) with Mk3 sleeper designations.

The Mk3 sleepers only worked with Mk2 seated vehicles and the Mk1 BGs as you mention.

There was such a thing as a Mk1 SLEP.

According to British Railways Mark 1 Coaches, by Keith Parkin, published in 1991, they were created by the Eastern and London Midland regions in 1971 by modifying 33 second class Mk1 sleepers so that the upper berth could be folded back, allowing them to be used as either single-berth compartments or as a twin-berth at times of heavy demand. These conversions were renumbered into the series 2800 to 2832.

And in this thread from 2022

Scottish Sleeper early 1980s

I have read a lot on this site about London to Scotland sleepers over the years, and there is often reference to the internal Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness sleeper service the combined at Perth. What I am interested in is ; 1) what was the usual haulage? I remember it often being class 26/27...

www.railforums.co.uk

there is a link to the Railway Inspectorate report into the derailment at Pitlochry in September 1983 of a southbound service (and an incident at Pershore on the Cotswold Line in 1984 when a similar track failure occurred) and both of the sleeper cars in the train were Mk1s and described as SLEPs, though 2448 perhaps should have been noted as an SLC going by its coaching stock number.

The Train

4. The passenger train was the 23.50 from Inverness to Glasgow, IT04, and consisted of 9 bogie vehicles hauled by a diesel-electric locomotive. The total weight of the train was 301.5 tonnes. The locomotive No. 47470 weighs 120 tonnes, has a co-co wheel arrangement and a maximum speed of 96 mile/h. The formation of the train from front to rear was as follows:

NDV 80549 NDV 84436 TSO 5099 TSO 5110 SLEP 2448 SLEP 2817 TSO 5164 TSO 5206 NDV 80635

5. The locomotive was connected to the train by means of the screw coupling of the locomotive; the vehicles of the train were coupled together by buckeye couplings. The vacuum brakes were coupled and operative throughout the train.

When the Mk3 sleepers were introduced and requiring air braked TSO/BSO in the formation the vans previously attached at Perth ran as a separate VB train to Inverness until the demise of mail and newspaper traffic.

One of the contributors to the Facebook thread was a former driver and describes working an air-braked formation, including Mk3 sleepers and BGs, from Glasgow to Perth. While he describes the Aberdeen sleeping car being detached from the front of the train and shunted at Perth, he does not mention the BGs being detached. Maybe a few air-brake BGs migrated north at some stage?