Longest sleeper train rake and shortest rake

[Mk1dreamer]

In the BR days what sleeper train had the most coaches/vans etc and what train had the least amount? Thank you guys for the daily company and sanity lol

 

[The exile]

In the BR days what sleeper train had the most coaches/vans etc and what train had the least amount? Thank you guys for the daily company and sanity lol

ISTR the Southwest - Scotland sleeper taking up the full length of platforms 3&4 at Temple Meads - no idea how many coaches that makes.

 

[Cowley]

ISTR the Southwest - Scotland sleeper taking up the full length of platforms 3&4 at Temple Meads - no idea how many coaches that makes.

It was 16 coaches by the time I left Temple Meads the one time I did it all the way to Edinburgh in 1988. Plus 1 loco at the front and two more pushing up the Lickey!

I did the Aberdeen and Inverness to Euston sleepers in the early 1990s a few times and they had sleepers, seated stock, motorail vans and a generator van all powered by pairs of 37s. I think they were somewhere near 16 coaches too potentially.

Would the shortest length sleeper be the Fort William portion that also formed the early service out of Glasgow Queen Street maybe?

 

[Mk1dreamer]

Oh wow that's a lot for 1 train so what would be the shortest rake ?

 

[Cowley]

Oh wow that's a lot for 1 train so what would be the shortest rake ?

I think I was editing the post while you were replying to add the bit about Fort William.

I don’t if I’m correct on these though. Just having a stab!

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
I don't know if it was the shortest, but the Poole sleeper in the early 1990's only had four carriages:

Here's a Flickr link showing a picture of it.

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[hexagon789]

Hi,
I don't know if it was the shortest, but the Poole sleeper in the early 1990's only had four carriages:

Here's a Flickr link showing a picture of it.

Cheers,
Mr Toad

I mean to be fair that's just the Poole portion. The Fort William was similarly 4 coaches.

After Mk3s replaced Mk1s, the Scottish internal sleeper was normally one coach for each flow on a 5-day cycle (Edinburgh-Inverness, Inverness-Glasgow, Glasgow-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Inverness, Inverness-Edinburgh), plus 3 coaches for the seated portion - TSO-BSO-TSO, equivalent to one of the HML "half-sets".

 

[Mk1dreamer]

Hi,
I don't know if it was the shortest, but the Poole sleeper in the early 1990's only had four carriages:

Here's a Flickr link showing a picture of it.

Cheers,
Mr Toad

So 2 seated and 2 sleepers ? Or 1 and 1 with two BG

 

[hexagon789]

So 2 seated and 2 sleepers ? Or 1 and 1 with two BG

Front to rear:

BFK
TSO
SLE or SLEP*
SLE or SLEP*

*Usual pairing was one each of SLEP and SLE with the pantry on the SLEP marshalled against the SLE so the attendant was located centrally between the two sleepers they were tending.

 

[Mk1dreamer]

Thank you for the info I'm happy to be part from the forum as I have a lot to learn

 

[Magdalia]

It was 16 coaches by the time I left Temple Meads the one time I did it all the way to Edinburgh in 1988.

Quite a few sleeper services could run up to 16 coaches.

I have a 1976 ECML WTT where most of the Anglo-Scottish sleepers were timed D560 which is 16 coaches.

But I don't know how that worked at Kings Cross. Also I do wonder how much steam heat got to the rear coach.

 

[The exile]

It was 16 coaches by the time I left Temple Meads the one time I did it all the way to Edinburgh in 1988. Plus 1 loco at the front and two more pushing up the Lickey!

Very memorable run in Feb 1987 in the rear coach. It was a BSO with the (unstaffed) guard’s area between the seating area and the rest of the train. No one else turned up before departure; a couple of fingers on the light switches made it look as if the coach was OOU to anyone walking g through the train and this combined with the fact that the back coach was off the platform everywhere except New Street guaranteed a completely undisturbed night. The sight and sound of the Lickey bankers was fantastic!

 

[oldman]

Back in 1966 I saw 18 (mark 1 of course) on the southbound Royal Highlander leaving Aviemore, hauled by three Type 2 diesels.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Intermediate stations on a sleeper route, were sometimes served by a single car detached / attached from the main train. Thus the 'Night Riviera' had a dedicated car for Plymouth; in earlier times when it wasn't called the 'Night Riviera' Exeter had one too. Carlisle also had a dedicated car - can't remember which Anglo-Scottish service it was attached / detached from.

 

[Mk1dreamer]

Back in 1966 I saw 18 (mark 1 of course) on the southbound Royal Highlander leaving Aviemore, hauled by three Type 2 diesels.

Was that normal or just extra busy ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2025 ==

Intermediate stations on a sleeper route, were sometimes served by a single car detached / attached from the main train. Thus the 'Night Riviera' had a dedicated car for Plymouth; in earlier times when it wasn't called the 'Night Riviera' Exeter had one too. Carlisle also had a dedicated car - can't remember which Anglo-Scottish service it was attached / detached from.

I really like the appeal if waking up at the platform ready to go

 

[Cheshire Scot]

ISTR the Southwest - Scotland sleeper taking up the full length of platforms 3&4 at Temple Meads - no idea how many coaches that makes.

It was 16 coaches by the time I left Temple Meads the one time I did it all the way to Edinburgh in 1988. Plus 1 loco at the front and two more pushing up the Lickey!

For several years the southbound train was load 17 between Carstairs and Crewe

 

[Laidon]

Back in 1966 I saw 18 (mark 1 of course) on the southbound Royal Highlander leaving Aviemore, hauled by three Type 2 diesels.

Yes, seen that a few times at Spey Lodge, just north of Aviemore station. Very impressive.

 

[oldman]

Was that normal or just extra busy ?

I have pictures of three locos at Aviemore on two nights - Saturday 20 and Sunday 28 August 1966, so maybe it was a bit busier at the weekend. Wonderful sound as they slowly climbed out to the south, which took a while.

 

[Rescars]

Intermediate stations on a sleeper route, were sometimes served by a single car detached / attached from the main train. Thus the 'Night Riviera' had a dedicated car for Plymouth; in earlier times when it wasn't called the 'Night Riviera' Exeter had one too. Carlisle also had a dedicated car - can't remember which Anglo-Scottish service it was attached / detached from.

On the topic of single coach portions, once upon a time there were a lot of slip coach workings. Does anyone know if any company ever attempted to slip sleepers?

 

[co-tr-paul]

At Bristol St Philips Marsh depot, Victoria Sidings, 2 are longer than the rest to accommodate the 16 coaches of the Bristol to Glasgow / Edinburgh sleeper !

 

[The exile]

On the topic of single coach portions, once upon a time there were a lot of slip coach workings. Does anyone know if any company ever attempted to slip sleepers?

There would be little point- the usual reason for slipping was to enable the main train to continue at speed. The odd 15 minutes is rarely critical on an overnight working. The big problem of slip coaches would still have been there - you can only do it in one direction.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In the 1960s the Euston to Oban sleeper consist varied according to season and day of the week, at maximum one coach and two sleeping cars, but a lot of the time just a single sleeping car (no seats), undoubtedly the shortest (although others may have been equally short). Detached from the Euston to Perth sleeper at Stirling and went forward with the early morning Stiling to Oban service which also conveyed mails and newspapers.

 

[robert thomas]

Intermediate stations on a sleeper route, were sometimes served by a single car detached / attached from the main train. Thus the 'Night Riviera' had a dedicated car for Plymouth; in earlier times when it wasn't called the 'Night Riviera' Exeter had one too. Carlisle also had a dedicated car - can't remember which Anglo-Scottish service it was attached / detached from.

On 3rd July 1969 I boarded a single sleeping car W2419 in the down bay platform at Exeter which was then attached to the up sleeper to Paddington at 01.45 the folwing morning

 

[Springs Branch]

Intermediate stations on a sleeper route, were sometimes served by a single car detached / attached from the main train. Thus the 'Night Riviera' had a dedicated car for Plymouth; in earlier times when it wasn't called the 'Night Riviera' Exeter had one too. Carlisle also had a dedicated car - can't remember which Anglo-Scottish service it was attached / detached from.

On 3rd July 1969 I boarded a single sleeping car W2419 in the down bay platform at Exeter which was then attached to the up sleeper to Paddington at 01.45 the folwing morning

It wouldn't have applied during July - but one quirk of these single "pick-up/set-down" sleeping cars was that during the cooler months of the year, they needed to be provided with a loco to provide carriage heating at the 'country' station, either after late evening boarding time until pick-up, or from drop-off until the 07:30 tip-out time.

Preston was one of those locations that hosted one or two sleeping cars (on and off the Barrow Sleeper) and stored in one of the bay platforms. I can't recall the reference, but seem to recall reading one of the late-1960s rosters at Lostock Hall shed involved a steam loco being assigned to this heating task. Presumably the engine had to be supervised more or less full time whilst simmering away. I'm not sure if this would be considered as an easy roster with very little work involved, or an incredibly tedious one for footplate crews.

 

[Magdalia]

On 3rd July 1969 I boarded a single sleeping car W2419 in the down bay platform at Exeter which was then attached to the up sleeper to Paddington at 01.45 the folwing morning

It wouldn't have applied during July - but one quirk of these single "pick-up/set-down" sleeping cars was that during the cooler months of the year, they needed to be provided with a loco to provide carriage heating at the 'country' station, either after late evening boarding time until pick-up, or from drop-off until the 07:30 tip-out time.

Does anyone know how the sleeping car was heated at Exeter, and what shunted it on and off the Night Riviera?

 

[Rescars]

Does anyone know how the sleeping car was heated at Exeter, and what shunted it on and off the Night Riviera?

Would this have been a regular turn for a station pilot? Presumably docked sleepers could be connected to a steam main if such a facility was available.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

On 3rd July 1969 I boarded a single sleeping car W2419 in the down bay platform at Exeter which was then attached to the up sleeper to Paddington at 01.45 the folwing morning

Likewise the Preston portion of the Barrow sleeper was a single sleeping car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

Intermediate stations on a sleeper route, were sometimes served by a single car detached / attached from the main train. Thus the 'Night Riviera' had a dedicated car for Plymouth; in earlier times when it wasn't called the 'Night Riviera' Exeter had one too. Carlisle also had a dedicated car - can't remember which Anglo-Scottish service it was attached / detached from.

The Carlisle portion was normally two sleeping cars, one first class one second.

 

[mailbyrail]

Another short sleeper was from Nottingham to Glasgow, a journey I remember from early in 1975.
The overnight train from St Pancras pulled in with its rake of seating carriages and the loco was detached, picked up a sleeping car from the Lincoln facing bay and reversed it onto what was now the rear of the train. The train then left in the opposite direction with its single sleeping car towards Derby, Leeds, S&C and Glasgow with me stretched out in one of the seated compartments.

 

[Taunton]

There were some ill-advised restrictions by government officials in WW2 prohibiting extra trains, and as the long distance overnight services were getting very substantial loads their size became huge. I believe the ECML had the longest, well over 20 carriages, double headed. At Kings Cross they were loaded as two trains, either side of an island platform; shortly before departure one half would move out and then set back onto the other, which must have been a challenging task in the blackout with the two locos well up into Gasworks Tunnel.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Quite a few sleeper services could run up to 16 coaches.

I have a 1976 ECML WTT where most of the Anglo-Scottish sleepers were timed D560 which is 16 coaches.

But I don't know how that worked at Kings Cross. Also I do wonder how much steam heat got to the rear coach.

It was 15 max (with two locos) after the 1976 track alterations at KX. They had to use Platform 1 if they were that length and even then they could go out on only one route - A.

There were two northbound trains that were load 15 in the late 1970’s and both were Aberdeen motorail trains, iirc. Their vans (including the infamous TCV’s) used to come out of the milk dock hauled by 1 Shunt (the station pilot - a 31) and went via another platform (4 was a popular one, iirc) and then the vans were put onto the stock on platform 1. Sometimes the train engine would do that shunt. It all depended how busy the station was and nights at KX at that time were usually very busy!

The stock at KX was usually pre-heated there by the static steam boiler which fed platforms 1 to 8. It was a powerful industrial Spanner (BR number 3345) situated under the entrance to East Side Offices, half way down Platform 1. When the train loco was connected up, the pipes at the south end would be disconnected.

Long sleeper trains on the ECML were usually no trouble for a Spanner 3 on a 47 but the Spanner 2 on a Deltic was a different story. On a very cold night they could easily get winded and the punters in the rear couple of coaches then got a very rough deal when it came to heat on the move.