Longest sleeper train rake and shortest rake

[Sun Chariot]

I mean to be fair that's just the Poole portion.

Out of interest, which sleeper route did the Poole portion form part of?
I'm gutted my 1980s wanderings only used the Euston to Edinburgh service. Oh, so many missed opportunities...

 

[hexagon789]

Out of interest, which sleeper route did the Poole portion form part of?
I'm gutted my 1980s wanderings only used the Euston to Edinburgh service. Oh, so many missed opportunities...

The Glasgow/Edinburgh - Plymouth

 

[Sun Chariot]

The Glasgow/Edinburgh - Plymouth

Many thanks

 

[The exile]

Many thanks

Meant that the SW portion no longer had to be banked up Lickey ;and presumably coincided with a drop-off in Rosyth - Plymouth traffic.

 

[Harpo]

It was 16 coaches by the time I left Temple Meads the one time I did it all the way to Edinburgh in 1988. Plus 1 loco at the front and two more pushing up the Lickey!

Or a pilot engine from Worcester for Stourbridge diversions. Did that one Saturday night with a 50+37 replaced at New Street by a single 47 that slipped to a stand at Bloxwich on the Cannock line.

Sadly, our eventual shove forward was another duff but with lots of entertainment from its Bescot driver, sharing his views about New Street drivers as we chatted from the rear door.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The Glasgow/Edinburgh - Plymouth sleeper, when it had the Poole portion and the Exeter sleeping car. Two questions for wise founts of knowledge:
1) What was its typical summer formation?
2) Where did the Poole portion detach / join; and what route did it take to / from Poole?

Many thanks.

 

[ac6000cw]

(message deleted)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2025 ==

Or a pilot engine from Worcester for Stourbridge diversions. Did that one Saturday night with a 50+37 replaced at New Street by a single 47 that slipped to a stand at Bloxwich on the Cannock line.

Sadly, our eventual shove forward was another duff but with lots of entertainment from its Bescot driver, sharing his views about New Street drivers as we chatted from the rear door.

The 50+37 must have been appreciated by the residents of Old Hill (in the middle of a 2+ mile 1 in 50 climb, with hills on either side to reflect the sound, for those unfamiliar with the area)!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The Glasgow/Edinburgh - Plymouth sleeper, when it had the Poole portion and the Exeter sleeping car. Two questions for wise founts of knowledge:
1) What was its typical summer formation?
2) Where did the Poole portion detach / join; and what route did it take to / from Poole?

Many thanks.

Can't answer re the formation (no doubt someone will know), but the Exeter car was to/from Paddington not Scotland, and the Poole portion detached /attached at New St thence via Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke.

 

[DarloRich]

I cant add much to this discussion except to say the father of a school friends was RN and used many sleepers as part of his duty travel. He did the Western sleeper, the Barrow, east and west Scotland sleepers and one down to Wales a couple of times.

I guess this was the easiest way to travel before the advent of cheap domestic air travel

 

[Rescars]

I cant add much to this discussion except to say the father of a school friends was RN and used many sleepers as part of his duty travel. He did the Western sleeper, the Barrow, east and west Scotland sleepers and one down to Wales a couple of times.

I guess this was the easiest way to travel before the advent of cheap domestic air travel

Straying slightly off topic, but regarding the "easiest way to travel", at one time middle management based in Glasgow were expected to use the sleeper to attend periodic morning meetings at Euston. What happens now, I wonder?

 

[Sun Chariot]

It was 16 coaches by the time I left Temple Meads the one time I did it all the way to Edinburgh in 1988. Plus 1 loco at the front and two more pushing up the Lickey!

Hello @Cowley it's a bit of a long shot, 37 years on do you recall the formation used in the 16 coaches of the Plymouth - Glasgow / Edinburgh sleeping car service you went on?
I curse myself for not using the reverse working with August 1988's All Line Rail Rover; instead opting to go to Euston and then GWML to Exeter*. Hindsight is  such a wonderful thing!

* The only plus, was finding two 50s with a Paddington - Oxford "fast". So... a photo taken, quick run along platforms, then front carriage treat to Reading, to change for a Plymouth-bound HST service. The Hoovers put in an epic performance, that run.

 

[Ken H]

There was a Leeds sleeper that sat in one of the west bays each day. HST killed that off.

Did any sleepers have Motorail vans attached? I know they were on West Coast trains after Crewe-Glasgow electrification but I think only day trains.

 

[DarloRich]

Straying slightly off topic, but regarding the "easiest way to travel", at one time middle management based in Glasgow were expected to use the sleeper to attend periodic morning meetings at Euston. What happens now, I wonder?

day train/flight and hotel I assume - I bet that is cheaper

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There was a Leeds sleeper that sat in one of the west bays each day. HST killed that off.

Did any sleepers have Motorail vans attached? I know they were on West Coast trains after Crewe-Glasgow electrification but I think only day trains.

The Penzance sleepers had Motorail vans in the late 60s / early 70s - the 'slow via Bristol' had a van for Exeter the 'fast' had vans for Plymouth and Penzance. GWR attempted a revival to Penzance after privatisation but motorways had killed the concept.

The 'Royal Highlander' briefly had a van Crewe - Inverness and v.v. before electrification. It was detached southbound at some ungodly hour so not a great success. Hard to believe now, but there were dedicated overnight motorail services Newton le Willows to Perth / Inverness and Sutton Coldfield - Stirling / Inverness!

 

[D6130]

When I was involved in train planning (1977-83), the maximum number of vehicles permitted in a passenger train - without special authority - was 17....as laid down in the General Appendix.

The shortest sleeper working, IIRC, was the Kings Cross - Fort William portion departing Edinburgh Waverley at 04 35, consisting of three cars....SLS, SLF and BCK - although at one stage I believe it also conveyed a newspaper van of some description. However an extra two sleeping cars were added to the formation on Friday nights/Saturday mornings Northbound and Saturday nights/Sunday mornings Southbound. When the service transferred to the WCML to/from Euston in the mid-1970s, the Fort William portion was increased to four coaches by the addition of an extra seating vehicle. Perhaps @Cheshire Scot could confirm or deny the above, as my memory is becoming a little hazy!

 

[Sun Chariot]

Did any sleepers have Motorail vans attached?

I have a photo taken at Paddington, August 1988, of a 50 at the buffer stops with the Night Riviera. Leading two vehicles were Motorail branded GUVs, followed by five Mk3 SLE/SLEP and then Mk2 aircon seated coaches (they are off my photo, so I can't see if two or three)

 

[Cowley]

Hello @Cowley it's a bit of a long shot, 37 years on do you recall the formation used in the 16 coaches of the Plymouth - Glasgow / Edinburgh sleeping car service you went on?
I curse myself for not using the reverse working with August 1988's All Line Rail Rover; instead opting to go to Euston and then GWML to Exeter*. Hindsight is  such a wonderful thing!

* The only plus, was finding two 50s with a Paddington - Oxford "fast". So... a photo taken, quick run along platforms, then front carriage treat to Reading, to change for a Plymouth-bound HST service. The Hoovers put in an epic performance, that run.

Unfortunately I don’t know what the consist was. The only notice I generally took was how far away from the loco I ended up sitting (I think we were towards the rear of the train).

 

[Cheshire Scot]

When I was involved in train planning (1977-83), the maximum number of vehicles permitted in a passenger train - without special authority - was 17....as laid down in the General Appendix.

The shortest sleeper working, IIRC, was the Kings Cross - Fort William portion departing Edinburgh Waverley at 04 35, consisting of three cars....SLS, SLF and BCK - although at one stage I believe it also conveyed a newspaper van of some description. However an extra two sleeping cars were added to the formation on Friday nights/Saturday mornings Northbound and Saturday nights/Sunday mornings Southbound. When the service transferred to the WCML to/from Euston in the mid-1970s, the Fort William portion was increased to four coaches by the addition of an extra seating vehicle. Perhaps @Cheshire Scot could confirm or deny the above, as my memory is becoming a little hazy!

Pretty accurate @D6130, although there was normally a BSK added at Edinburgh which was an un-advertised through coach from Edinburgh to Mallaig.

With the longer portion from KX on summer Fri night / Sat morning - with the two additional sleepers plus a second seated coach - the formation was too long for Queen St HL when the Queen St to Mallaig portion was added so it ran independently at 03.45 from Edinburgh to Fort William via the Cowlairs curve. The earlier arrival in Fort William also facilitated a short turnround for the additiional sleeping car attendant who was able to return south the same night with the two extra sleepers (being allocated a hotel room for his rest period) whereas normally they had to lodge as the regular turnround was too short. Southbound the combined train was likewise too long for Queen St so it ran via QS Low Level which back then could accommodate the full train and the Glasgow portion was then detached at Cowlairs.

The additional sleeping cars continued on summer Friday nights from Euston but only in the first summer, and again it ran as an independant train, now from Mossend to Fort William, although I think southbound it split at Cowlairs on the way into Glasgow. That year Euston also provided one extra sleeping car at Easter which i don't recall KX ever doing.

Hello @Cowley it's a bit of a long shot, 37 years on do you recall the formation used in the 16 coaches of the Plymouth - Glasgow / Edinburgh sleeping car service you went on?

The Edinburgh portion was normally 7 and 9 for Glasgow. Without the specific marshalling order, Edinburgh, BG 3xSLC SK CK BSK - Glasgow, BG SLC 2xSLF SLS SK CK CK BG.
At weekends in summer, Friday nights possibly Saturday too, both portions had extra seated coaches so it ran as two trains throughout, certainly in the era when it terminated in Bristol, not sure about when extended to Plymouth. .

 

[Sun Chariot]

The Edinburgh portion was normally 7 and 9 for Glasgow. Without the specific marshalling order, Edinburgh, BG 3xSLC SK CK BSK - Glasgow, BG SLC 2xSLF SLS SK CK CK BG.
At weekends in summer, Friday nights possibly Saturday too, both portions had extra seated coaches so it ran as two trains throughout, certainly in the era when it terminated in Bristol, not sure about when extended to Plymouth. .

Many thanks @Cheshire Scot is this in the 1970s / very early 1980s? The abbreviations you use (SLF / SLC / SLS) are Mk1 sleeping cars. I'm seeking the train in its 1987 to 1992 guise: Mk3 sleeping cars, Mk2 aircon seated stock, Poole portion 4 carriages (as shown in a.1992 Flickr photo via link upthread). When I did Rail Rovers 1988 to 1991, the service was pathed Plymouth rather than just Bristol.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Many thanks @Cheshire Scot is this in the 1970s / very early 1980s? The abbreviations you use (SLF / SLC / SLS) are Mk1 sleeping cars. I'm seeking the train in its 1987 to 1992 guise: Mk3 sleeping cars, Mk2 aircon seated stock, Poole portion 4 carriages (as shown in a.1992 Flickr photo via link upthread). When I did Rail Rovers 1988 to 1991, the service was pathed Plymouth rather than just Bristol.

Yes, mid/late 70's possibly early 80s. I find it difficult to imagine it would still have been load 16 with MKiiis due to their greater length (although Caledonian Sleeeper ran with 16 in the MK3 era but calling at many fewer stations).

 

[hexagon789]

Many thanks @Cheshire Scot is this in the 1970s / very early 1980s? The abbreviations you use (SLF / SLC / SLS) are Mk1 sleeping cars. I'm seeking the train in its 1987 to 1992 guise: Mk3 sleeping cars, Mk2 aircon seated stock, Poole portion 4 carriages (as shown in a.1992 Flickr photo via link upthread). When I did Rail Rovers 1988 to 1991, the service was pathed Plymouth rather than just Bristol.

Yes, mid/late 70's possibly early 80s. I find it difficult to imagine it would still have been load 16 with MKiiis due to their greater length (although Caledonian Sleeeper ran with 16 in the MK3 era but calling at many fewer stations).

The 1987 marshalling book has it as 14 coaches, two portions of 7.

But it was sleepers only Scotland / Bristol with only the seats running beyond to/from Plymouth.

Believe it was 1988 they altered it so the sleepers ran throughout.

 

[matchmaker]

Prewar, the Night Scot formation was 12 vehicles, but often loaded heavier. The Royal Highlander was normally 11.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The 1987 marshalling book has it as 14 coaches, two portions of 7.

But it was sleepers only Scotland / Bristol with only the seats running beyond to/from Plymouth.

Believe it was 1988 they altered it so the sleepers ran throughout.

Smashing, many thanks @hexagon789

Upthread, Cheshire Scot mentions the Poole 4-set joined and split at Birmingham New Street.
Cowley's post near the start of this thread, mentioned it as 16 bogies when he departed Temple Meads and he was heading north
I'm curious. Was the Poole portion included on it after 1988? I cannot conceive a 20-carriage service.

I will forever kick myself, for not making use of it on my 1988 summer All Line Rail Rover...

 

[hexagon789]

I'm curious. Was the Poole portion included on it after 1988? I cannot conceive a 20-carriage service.

I may be wrong here but I've a vague idea that, at least initially, the Poole portion was technically Edinburgh / Poole with the other part being Glasgow / Plymouth.

I assume if that is correct then I assume either they continued as before but now with one portion going to Poole instead of the West Country, or the Edinburgh section had a shorter Plymouth portion within it, maybe just two sleeping cars, thus equalling 16 vehicles in all.

The 1987 arrangement for each portion was:

NHA
BSO or BFK (alternating)
2 TSO
SLE*
SLEP*
SLE *

*sleepers between Scotland & Bristol only.

 

[ac6000cw]

What happens now, I wonder?

I guess Zoom/Teams meetings online (like many other organisations) - also means the sleeper space can be sold to paying passengers...

 

[Falcon1200]

Straying slightly off topic, but regarding the "easiest way to travel", at one time middle management based in Glasgow were expected to use the sleeper to attend periodic morning meetings at Euston.

As a Network Rail Scotland manager I once travelled up on the Sleeper for a meeting, and back on a daytime train. The meeting was a waste of time but I don't suppose that is unusual, in any business!. I also went several times to the Westwood Management Centre near Tile Hill, sometimes by train and sometimes by plane - And had annoying delays on both.

also means the sleeper space can be sold to paying passengers...

Network Rail have to pay for their staff to travel by train.

Going back in time, presumably the long-gone Milford Haven sleeper was another short formation?

 

[hexagon789]

Going back in time, presumably the long-gone Milford Haven sleeper was another short formation?

In 1965 it was formed thus leaving Paddington:

3 BG-type vans, ONE sleeper, two day coaches and 9 other assorted vans.

It shed various vans en route at at Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Carmarthen etc on different nights of the week.

This ultimately left just the two day coaches, the sole sleeping car and, Mondays only, a van to reach Milford Haven.

 

[Bald Rick]

Straying slightly off topic, but regarding the "easiest way to travel", at one time middle management based in Glasgow were expected to use the sleeper to attend periodic morning meetings at Euston. What happens now, I wonder?

day train/flight and hotel I assume - I bet that is cheaper

usually Teams, but if in person is required the Sleeper is often used outbound, day train back.

 

[Blade Fisher]

It was 15 max (with two locos) after the 1976 track alterations at KX. They had to use Platform 1 if they were that length and even then they could go out on only one route - A.

There were two northbound trains that were load 15 in the late 1970’s and both were Aberdeen motorail trains, iirc. Their vans (including the infamous TCV’s) used to come out of the milk dock hauled by 1 Shunt (the station pilot - a 31) and went via another platform (4 was a popular one, iirc) and then the vans were put onto the stock on platform 1. Sometimes the train engine would do that shunt. It all depended how busy the station was and nights at KX at that time were usually very busy!

The stock at KX was usually pre-heated there by the static steam boiler which fed platforms 1 to 8. It was a powerful industrial Spanner (BR number 3345) situated under the entrance to East Side Offices, half way down Platform 1. When the train loco was connected up, the pipes at the south end would be disconnected.

Long sleeper trains on the ECML were usually no trouble for a Spanner 3 on a 47 but the Spanner 2 on a Deltic was a different story. On a very cold night they could easily get winded and the punters in the rear couple of coaches then got a very rough deal when it came to heat on the move.

The longest I have recorded ie booked was 19 vehicles. RU-FK-BFK-SLSTP-SLSTP-FK-FK-FO-SLSTP-10 carflats 1040 St Austell - Crewe (Inverness) 1974-5. At Crewe the RU came off.

 

[RPI]

Did I imagine it, or did the Glasgow-Plymouth sleeper run through to Penzance at certain times? I swear that in about 1995 my dad dropped off his girlfriend at the time onto a Glasgow sleeper at St Erth?