London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

Why not have a bus go at the speed limit if it is capable and safe to do so? If slower speeds are enforced surely more buses are needed to operate the route and this increasing the cost to TFL?

In fact is it safe to have a bus doing 20mph while other vehicles are doing up to 40mph?

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Some of the speed limit changes are more the whim of London mayor than based on any logic, or scientific speed.

TfL choose to quote accidents with serious injury (or fatalities) as justification. This is just a subset of all road accidents. Evidence confirms these have gone down, but vehicle insurance claims data shows total number of collisions has gone up. Modern vehicles are safer so fewer vehicle occupants get serious injuries

You are correct about some vehicles going faster, and this seems to have resulted in more iffy overtaking and collisions and near misses. But TfL deliberately choose not to acknowledge this, and want buses to observe the new lower speed limits.

You have to ask why if 30 or 40mph has been ok for decades, is it suddenly necessary to drop limit to 20mph. I know of a section of dual carriageway through a London bourough that used to be national speed limit 70mph. They added crash barriers and street lighting then dropped limit to 40mph so the safety features made it slower, go figure

 

[PGAT]

I’m not sure if it’s responsible to be calling old arrangements “ok” when we still have 4 digit annual road deaths in this country. Furthermore, if you were the mayor and it was your goal to get road deaths in the city to zero, what would you be doing?

 

[Mark L]

Falcon (based in Byfleet) has taken over its first London tendered route today, first new Operator in London for few years. It is now operating the 2 bus route 467 (Hook to Epsom)

Initially seems to be using ex Stagecoach E400s LX12DDF and LX12DGF, but has new ADL E400ev on order.

Falcon has also taken over the Kingston University inter-site buses from 1st September (also has new E400 electric buses on order), a 1 or 2 bus service during holidays, but at least 5 buses term time (from mid Sept)

The PVR for the KU contract is four buses. Five vehicles are on order. The 467 has a PVR of two with three buses on order.

 

[foggy69]

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Some of the speed limit changes are more the whim of London mayor than based on any logic, or scientific speed.

TfL choose to quote accidents with serious injury (or fatalities) as justification. This is just a subset of all road accidents. Evidence confirms these have gone down, but vehicle insurance claims data shows total number of collisions has gone up. Modern vehicles are safer so fewer vehicle occupants get serious injuries

You are correct about some vehicles going faster, and this seems to have resulted in more iffy overtaking and collisions and near misses. But TfL deliberately choose not to acknowledge this, and want buses to observe the new lower speed limits.

You have to ask why if 30 or 40mph has been ok for decades, is it suddenly necessary to drop limit to 20mph. I know of a section of dual carriageway through a London bourough that used to be national speed limit 70mph. They added crash barriers and street lighting then dropped limit to 40mph so the safety features made it slower, go figure

Don't forget that vehicles aren't the only things using the roads of London.
Pedestrians and cyclists also share this space, and the chances of been killed or seriously injured after being hit by a car doing 20mph rather than 30mph is much lower.

There is a perceived attitude amongst some that this part of a 'war against the motorist', which puts some drivers into the wrong mindset for being in charge of a deadly machine.

 

[Mikey C]

I’m not sure if it’s responsible to be calling old arrangements “ok” when we still have 4 digit annual road deaths in this country. Furthermore, if you were the mayor and it was your goal to get road deaths in the city to zero, what would you be doing?

Introduce a compulsory cycling proficiency test? With all the hire bikes around, the standard of cycling is awful now, with people riding them with no road sense whatsoever. No helmets either.

Delivery riders are just as bad

Then there's pedestrians, crossing roads with no eye on the traffic, glued to their phones.

While bad driving and excessive speed is clearly a factor, you won't eradicate deaths solely by targeting drivers. And in the meantime, buses become slower and less attractive.

 

[johncrossley]

Introduce a compulsory cycling proficiency test? With all the hire bikes around, the standard of cycling is awful now, with people riding them with no road sense whatsoever. No helmets either.

Helmets are promoted in countries where cycling has been marginalised, for example in English speaking countries like the UK and Australia (where they are compulsory, leading to a further reduction in cycling rates). Almost nobody wears a helmet in the Netherlands yet cycle fatalities per capita are a lot lower than in the UK. Where people consider cycling to be so dangerous that you have to wear a helmet, that isn't going to lead to mass usage. Basically, if you want to cut the amount of cycling, promote or mandate helmets.

There is an uncomfortable truth that hardly anyone mentions, though. Cycling competes not just with private motoring, but also with buses. Where you have mass usage of cycling, for example in the Netherlands, bus usage for short distances in towns is almost negligible, as there is no point taking the bus as cycling is safe, virtually free and usually quicker. In most of Britain, cycling is still not taken seriously enough as a competitor to the bus, but in some parts of London there probably is considerable shift from bus to bike following infrastructure improvements. So this has to be taken into account when looking at bus patronage figures. If people are switching from bus to bike then that's a win-win situation because it reduces bus overcrowding and might mean you don't need to run buses any more frequent than every 12 minutes.

 

[MotCO]

If people are switching from bus to bike then that's a win-win situation because it reduces bus overcrowding and might mean you don't need to run buses any more frequent than every 12 minutes.

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

 

[johncrossley]

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

I'm not advocating a frequency cut worse than what is still considered "high frequency" by TfL.

 

[MCR247]

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

A win for society doesn’t have to mean a win for every single person in every situation. Should we not try and encourage more bike use, because it could reduce bus passenger numbers and mean that people who can’t cycle will have to wait longer for their bus?

 

[fairysdad]

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

But is that same plumber who isn't carrying his tools on a bike carrying them on a bus instead?

 

[MotCO]

But is that same plumber who isn't carrying his tools on a bike carrying them on a bus instead?

You can carry heavier or longer things on a bus than you can (or should) on a bike

 

[3rd rail land]

You can carry heavier or longer things on a bus than you can (or should) on a bike

I get the point you are trying to make however your plumber example is not a good one. Plumbers tend to drive minivans to get to their jobs.

 

[Mark L]

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Some of the speed limit changes are more the whim of London mayor than based on any logic, or scientific speed.

TfL choose to quote accidents with serious injury (or fatalities) as justification. This is just a subset of all road accidents. Evidence confirms these have gone down, but vehicle insurance claims data shows total number of collisions has gone up. Modern vehicles are safer so fewer vehicle occupants get serious injuries

You are correct about some vehicles going faster, and this seems to have resulted in more iffy overtaking and collisions and near misses. But TfL deliberately choose not to acknowledge this, and want buses to observe the new lower speed limits.

You have to ask why if 30 or 40mph has been ok for decades, is it suddenly necessary to drop limit to 20mph. I know of a section of dual carriageway through a London bourough that used to be national speed limit 70mph. They added crash barriers and street lighting then dropped limit to 40mph so the safety features made it slower, go figure

There is some useful analysis of the impact of 20mph zones here - https://www.burwellparishcouncil.gov.uk/Wales_20mph_48775.aspx

Whilst Arriva is quoted as saying they have led to lower bus speeds another (un-named) operator says that the truth is more nuanced.

The experience of insurance companies is worth noting - unlike those who rant on social media they have empirical evidence on both the number and cost of claims. In addition to reducing the risk of death and serious injury lower speeds give more time for road users to react and, if a collision does occur, the consequences are less severe.

The key constraint on vehicle speed in urban areas is transit time through junctions rather than the maximum speed. This is largely dictated by overall traffic volume.

The mean speed of buses in London in June this year was 9.07 mph. Ten years ago (so before 20mph zones became widespread) it was 9.2mph. See https://content.tfl.gov.uk/network-all-bus-speeds-to-p04-2026.xlsx