London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

Why not have a bus go at the speed limit if it is capable and safe to do so? If slower speeds are enforced surely more buses are needed to operate the route and this increasing the cost to TFL?

In fact is it safe to have a bus doing 20mph while other vehicles are doing up to 40mph?

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Some of the speed limit changes are more the whim of London mayor than based on any logic, or scientific speed.

TfL choose to quote accidents with serious injury (or fatalities) as justification. This is just a subset of all road accidents. Evidence confirms these have gone down, but vehicle insurance claims data shows total number of collisions has gone up. Modern vehicles are safer so fewer vehicle occupants get serious injuries

You are correct about some vehicles going faster, and this seems to have resulted in more iffy overtaking and collisions and near misses. But TfL deliberately choose not to acknowledge this, and want buses to observe the new lower speed limits.

You have to ask why if 30 or 40mph has been ok for decades, is it suddenly necessary to drop limit to 20mph. I know of a section of dual carriageway through a London bourough that used to be national speed limit 70mph. They added crash barriers and street lighting then dropped limit to 40mph so the safety features made it slower, go figure

 

[PGAT]

I’m not sure if it’s responsible to be calling old arrangements “ok” when we still have 4 digit annual road deaths in this country. Furthermore, if you were the mayor and it was your goal to get road deaths in the city to zero, what would you be doing?

 

[Mark L]

Falcon (based in Byfleet) has taken over its first London tendered route today, first new Operator in London for few years. It is now operating the 2 bus route 467 (Hook to Epsom)

Initially seems to be using ex Stagecoach E400s LX12DDF and LX12DGF, but has new ADL E400ev on order.

Falcon has also taken over the Kingston University inter-site buses from 1st September (also has new E400 electric buses on order), a 1 or 2 bus service during holidays, but at least 5 buses term time (from mid Sept)

The PVR for the KU contract is four buses. Five vehicles are on order. The 467 has a PVR of two with three buses on order.

 

[foggy69]

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Some of the speed limit changes are more the whim of London mayor than based on any logic, or scientific speed.

TfL choose to quote accidents with serious injury (or fatalities) as justification. This is just a subset of all road accidents. Evidence confirms these have gone down, but vehicle insurance claims data shows total number of collisions has gone up. Modern vehicles are safer so fewer vehicle occupants get serious injuries

You are correct about some vehicles going faster, and this seems to have resulted in more iffy overtaking and collisions and near misses. But TfL deliberately choose not to acknowledge this, and want buses to observe the new lower speed limits.

You have to ask why if 30 or 40mph has been ok for decades, is it suddenly necessary to drop limit to 20mph. I know of a section of dual carriageway through a London bourough that used to be national speed limit 70mph. They added crash barriers and street lighting then dropped limit to 40mph so the safety features made it slower, go figure

Don't forget that vehicles aren't the only things using the roads of London.
Pedestrians and cyclists also share this space, and the chances of been killed or seriously injured after being hit by a car doing 20mph rather than 30mph is much lower.

There is a perceived attitude amongst some that this part of a 'war against the motorist', which puts some drivers into the wrong mindset for being in charge of a deadly machine.

 

[Mikey C]

I’m not sure if it’s responsible to be calling old arrangements “ok” when we still have 4 digit annual road deaths in this country. Furthermore, if you were the mayor and it was your goal to get road deaths in the city to zero, what would you be doing?

Introduce a compulsory cycling proficiency test? With all the hire bikes around, the standard of cycling is awful now, with people riding them with no road sense whatsoever. No helmets either.

Delivery riders are just as bad

Then there's pedestrians, crossing roads with no eye on the traffic, glued to their phones.

While bad driving and excessive speed is clearly a factor, you won't eradicate deaths solely by targeting drivers. And in the meantime, buses become slower and less attractive.

 

[johncrossley]

Introduce a compulsory cycling proficiency test? With all the hire bikes around, the standard of cycling is awful now, with people riding them with no road sense whatsoever. No helmets either.

Helmets are promoted in countries where cycling has been marginalised, for example in English speaking countries like the UK and Australia (where they are compulsory, leading to a further reduction in cycling rates). Almost nobody wears a helmet in the Netherlands yet cycle fatalities per capita are a lot lower than in the UK. Where people consider cycling to be so dangerous that you have to wear a helmet, that isn't going to lead to mass usage. Basically, if you want to cut the amount of cycling, promote or mandate helmets.

There is an uncomfortable truth that hardly anyone mentions, though. Cycling competes not just with private motoring, but also with buses. Where you have mass usage of cycling, for example in the Netherlands, bus usage for short distances in towns is almost negligible, as there is no point taking the bus as cycling is safe, virtually free and usually quicker. In most of Britain, cycling is still not taken seriously enough as a competitor to the bus, but in some parts of London there probably is considerable shift from bus to bike following infrastructure improvements. So this has to be taken into account when looking at bus patronage figures. If people are switching from bus to bike then that's a win-win situation because it reduces bus overcrowding and might mean you don't need to run buses any more frequent than every 12 minutes.

 

[MotCO]

If people are switching from bus to bike then that's a win-win situation because it reduces bus overcrowding and might mean you don't need to run buses any more frequent than every 12 minutes.

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

 

[johncrossley]

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

I'm not advocating a frequency cut worse than what is still considered "high frequency" by TfL.

 

[MCR247]

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

A win for society doesn’t have to mean a win for every single person in every situation. Should we not try and encourage more bike use, because it could reduce bus passenger numbers and mean that people who can’t cycle will have to wait longer for their bus?

 

[fairysdad]

But not everyone can ride a bike through health, age or employment reasons (e.g. a plumber can't carry all his tools on a bike). So if you think a reduction in bus frequencies is a win, it will be a distinct loss for a cohort of people in this era of equality.

But is that same plumber who isn't carrying his tools on a bike carrying them on a bus instead?

 

[MotCO]

But is that same plumber who isn't carrying his tools on a bike carrying them on a bus instead?

You can carry heavier or longer things on a bus than you can (or should) on a bike

 

[3rd rail land]

You can carry heavier or longer things on a bus than you can (or should) on a bike

I get the point you are trying to make however your plumber example is not a good one. Plumbers tend to drive minivans to get to their jobs.

 

[Mark L]

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Some of the speed limit changes are more the whim of London mayor than based on any logic, or scientific speed.

TfL choose to quote accidents with serious injury (or fatalities) as justification. This is just a subset of all road accidents. Evidence confirms these have gone down, but vehicle insurance claims data shows total number of collisions has gone up. Modern vehicles are safer so fewer vehicle occupants get serious injuries

You are correct about some vehicles going faster, and this seems to have resulted in more iffy overtaking and collisions and near misses. But TfL deliberately choose not to acknowledge this, and want buses to observe the new lower speed limits.

You have to ask why if 30 or 40mph has been ok for decades, is it suddenly necessary to drop limit to 20mph. I know of a section of dual carriageway through a London bourough that used to be national speed limit 70mph. They added crash barriers and street lighting then dropped limit to 40mph so the safety features made it slower, go figure

There is some useful analysis of the impact of 20mph zones here - https://www.burwellparishcouncil.gov.uk/Wales_20mph_48775.aspx

Whilst Arriva is quoted as saying they have led to lower bus speeds another (un-named) operator says that the truth is more nuanced.

The experience of insurance companies is worth noting - unlike those who rant on social media they have empirical evidence on both the number and cost of claims. In addition to reducing the risk of death and serious injury lower speeds give more time for road users to react and, if a collision does occur, the consequences are less severe.

The key constraint on vehicle speed in urban areas is transit time through junctions rather than the maximum speed. This is largely dictated by overall traffic volume.

The mean speed of buses in London in June this year was 9.07 mph. Ten years ago (so before 20mph zones became widespread) it was 9.2mph. See https://content.tfl.gov.uk/network-all-bus-speeds-to-p04-2026.xlsx

 

[WH241]

Does anyone know the plan for the ex route 349 LTs? Looking on LVF it appears most if not all are still in use at AR.

 

[MotCO]

Does anyone know the plan for the ex route 349 LTs? Looking on LVF it appears most if not all are still in use at AR.

Probably the same for any if the LT class. The earliest ones are now 14 years old, and recent tender results indicate that contracts for double deck hybrid buses are only being let for 3 years. So there isn't much life left in these buses. I can't see 997 hybrid buses finding homes elsewhere in the country, so the end is probably nigh.

 

[Mark L]

Probably the same for any if the LT class. The earliest ones are now 14 years old, and recent tender results indicate that contracts for double deck hybrid buses are only being let for 3 years. So there isn't much life left in these buses. I can't see 997 hybrid buses finding homes elsewhere in the country, so the end is probably nigh.

To quote a former mayor “ they’ll be sent back "to their spiritual home, an airfield in the Midlands”.

 

[WH241]

Probably the same for any if the LT class. The earliest ones are now 14 years old, and recent tender results indicate that contracts for double deck hybrid buses are only being let for 3 years. So there isn't much life left in these buses. I can't see 997 hybrid buses finding homes elsewhere in the country, so the end is probably nigh.

When a odd LT working was reported on the 158 a couple nights ago I thought this could have potentially taken them to replace the remaining DWs but turns out this was just a driver covering a shortage and used a LT. I believe the 158 was possible taking the ex route SL2 HAs but at least one of these has moved to the 329 so not sure if the plan has changed.

 

[capitalpotter]

Feels strange to think all the LTs will be scrapped.

 

[WH241]

Feels strange to think all the LTs will be scrapped.

Especially when the refurbishment is only just coming towards an end.

It will be gradual and guessing there will be some swapping around of the fleet to move newer examples into most recent tender renewals.

Also the route 8 examples have a new home on route 56 once BW is fully wired up and 8 gets its electric buses.

I assume the route 16 examples could potentially be the first to leave.

 

[Statto]

Some of the early LTs have already been withdrawn from service including LT7 which was the one James May drove for a segment in Top Gear.

 

[MasterPhillips]

I think this may have been asked before but i wanted to know what happens to drivers when their route is taken over by another garage? One of my local routes, the 216, is moving from Fulwell garage to Hounslow Heath garage and im curious to know if the drivers will move too or if they have to learn a new route instead.

 

[capitalpotter]

Especially when the refurbishment is only just coming towards an end.

It will be gradual and guessing there will be some swapping around of the fleet to move newer examples into most recent tender renewals.

Also the route 8 examples have a new home on route 56 once BW is fully wired up and 8 gets its electric buses.

I assume the route 16 examples could potentially be the first to leave.

Was the 16 the first route to get LTs. I always thought it was 24 or 38

 

[317 forever]

Was the 16 the first route to get LTs. I always thought it was 24 or 38

Route 38 received the prototype batch, while route 24 was the first to fully convert to the type.

It's just that the tender taking effect on route 16 in October specifies new electric buses.

Whether any more routes convert to LT or whether regular withdrawals commence has not yet been decided.

 

[MotCO]

I think this may have been asked before but i wanted to know what happens to drivers when their route is taken over by another garage? One of my local routes, the 216, is moving from Fulwell garage to Hounslow Heath garage and im curious to know if the drivers will move too or if they have to learn a new route instead.

If it moves between different companies, TUPE could apply, so that drivers (and mechanics?) could move to the new operator. However, if there are sufficient vacancies at the former operator, then they could retain the staff and use them on other routes. Not sure what would happen if the same operator manages both garages - it would probably be a mixture - some move move, others would stay.

TUPE = Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006

 

[capitalpotter]

Route 38 received the prototype batch, while route 24 was the first to fully convert to the type.

It's just that the tender taking effect on route 16 in October specifies new electric buses.

Whether any more routes convert to LT or whether regular withdrawals commence has not yet been decided.

What was the difference between the prototype batch and the subsequent batch?

 

[RUK]

Feels strange to think all the LTs will be scrapped.

All of them? Presumably at least one of them will be preserved by the London Transport Museum, at least for the distinctive and custom design alone, whatever anyone might think about its qualities/how good the bus may or may not be? I presume that other people might want to preserve them as well, if TfL decided to allow to sell them off at the end of their in-service lives, and the more there are sold into preservation, then the easier it will be for anyone, including the London Transport Museum, to eventually source spare parts for them, when they will happen to be needed?

 

[MotCO]

All of them? Presumably at least one of them will be preserved by the London Transport Museum, at least for the distinctive and custom design alone, whatever anyone might think about its qualities/how good the bus may or may not be? I presume that other people might want to preserve them as well, if TfL decided to allow to sell them off at the end of their in-service lives, and the more there are sold into preservation, then the easier it will be for anyone, including the London Transport Museum, to eventually source spare parts for them, when they will happen to be needed?

One or two have been converted to EV, but I don't know how successfully. If the price was right, a London sightseeing tour operator could snap some up and convert them - their longer length allows more punters to be carried.

 

[RUK]

One or two have been converted to EV, but I don't know how successfully. If the price was right, a London sightseeing tour operator could snap some up and convert them - their longer length allows more punters to be carried.

Ah, yes, that’s good thinking - I’m sure that sight-seeing tour operators would want them! Chopping at least part of the roof off changes them quite a bit for preservation purposes, though, especially the spiral glass design at the back, though searching seems to indicate that there is at least 1 original Routemaster converted for sight-seeing, RM644, which has its original structure at the back of the bus, as well as newer sight-seeing buses in Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Derry, as a template/reference for what might be done in the future.

 

[Mark L]

One or two have been converted to EV, but I don't know how successfully. If the price was right, a London sightseeing tour operator could snap some up and convert them - their longer length allows more punters to be carried.

One has been converted to EV with limited success. I’m not sure how the structure would support an open top conversion…

 

[700007]

Pretty sure no-one here has really discussed the 456 bus route. It offers, simply put, an atrocious service. It is likely to it to just not show up, often because it's so late that one of the 2bph is just 'skipped' - Enfield Transport Users Group quoted a terrible 65% punctuality rate recently. ETUG also quotes a 'lack of drivers' - this route didn't enter service yesterday and existed partially for many years prior in the form of the W10! You can watch a bus arrive at North Middlesex, disappear from the map, and never come back to work the return leaving a gap in service. And the crappy Streetlite WFs there are used on this route also do not always cope with demand due to their small size; this route serves several stations and schools.

The nearby W9 route is on time just about 80% of the time and also uses better suited Enviro200s. Not to mention it has a much more suitable frequency of 4bph all-day Mon-Sat compared to the unreliable 2-3bph on the 456.

Go-Ahead London's Northumberland Park garage at the moment has been going through a rough patch for a couple of years. It seems to have gotten even worse since they took over three routes in quick succession. By a lot of metrics that TfL use (including trips/miles not operated due to lack of staff, lack of buses, lack of Company-induced errors) or things such as customer complaints they are by far the worst garage in London. The 456 unfortunately has been suffering for years with how appallingly bad the service has been and on that route it is usually the very poor and unreliable nature of the vehicles used.

In other news, from my observations, it looks like the 96 is now using the Fastrack entrance into Darent Valley Hospital which if an agreement has been reached by TfL and KCC is excellent news. Those who use the route will know whilst this is only about 200 metres of road - if that - can potentially skip on the very worst days a 30 minute queue to get into the hospital!