Local elections and UKIP

[Bromley boy]

If there's anything recent years have shown us, it's that the common folk can't always make the best decisions. If we left it to the common folks and loudest voices to decide what should happen with things, then Alfie Evans would have probably died on his way to Rome, and we would probably be more divided than ever because of some people being unable to separate their feelings from facts and being unable to think objectively. Fact of the matter is, to put it bluntly, the Average Joe doesn't know codswallop, and the only reason we care now is because politicians are finding it harder to hide their corruption and self-interest

The result of "that" referendum bears out what you say.

That argument would equally have been borne out if the result had gone the other way.

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed, here in Cheshire East, as we both are, we have to wait until 2019 for our next set of local elections. With regard to Trafford, it is not all an area of supposed affluence such as Bowdon and Hale Barns that can be found in its southern reaches, but there are northern areas near to Manchester that are totally different.

Don't forget that the northern end includes Flixton and not all the former Cheshire areas of Trafford are affluent. A couple of months ago there was a news report over police being called to the Asda store in Broadheath after a fight over reduced price sandwiches broke out!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't forget that the northern end includes Flixton and not all the former Cheshire areas of Trafford are affluent. A couple of months ago there was a news report over police being called to the Asda store in Broadheath after a fight over reduced price sandwiches broke out!

Broadheath is a part of Altrincham that is about the total opposite to the Bowdon and Hale Barns areas of Altrincham. Much of industry of the area was to be found in the Atlantic Street area of Broadheath in bygone days.

 

[furnessvale]

The result of "that" referendum bears out what you say.

How very true. If the average Joe had known codswallop, the pro leave vote would have been overwhelming!

 

[northwichcat]

How very true. If the average Joe had known codswallop, the pro leave vote would have been overwhelming!

If they known everything about Farage I doubt it. It makes no sense why so many people trusted him over the EU, I think many wrongly saw him as 'one of us' not as a rich former Conservative Party member who left because even the Eurospectics in the party weren't right wing enough for him. He even shot himself in the foot by saying he and his family would 'suffer' if he didn't take his MEP pension in full.

 

[Bromley boy]

It makes no sense why so many people trusted him over the EU

Farage is at least a conviction politician. Naturally that won’t mean anything to those who believe the oh so-trust-worthy EU is perfect and can do no wrong.

Of course most remain voting sheep know absolutely nothing about the EU, which explains why they voted as they did.

 

[SS4]

Farage is at least a conviction politician. Naturally that won’t mean anything to those who believe the oh so-trust-worthy EU is perfect and can do no wrong.

Of course most remain voting sheep know absolutely nothing about the EU, which explains why they voted as they did.

Ah yes. Farage, the man who was wholeheartedly against UK membership in the EU but had no trouble taking their money. Solid conviction there

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Seriously though, I am dismayed but not entirely surprised Labour now have a clear majority in my local council Kirklees, their track record is absolutely appalling, the demise of Huddersfield will now carry on unabated.

Demise of Huddersfield? In what way? Huddersfield has issues for sure, but they're things which every other similarly-sized place suffers from, and are more down to national policy than local. Exhibit A being the "managed decline" of the Infirmary.

I believe that what Beeza is trying to say is that Labour have ruined Kirklees Council and since they've gain control of the council Labour will destroy it all the more.

As someone who runs a business on one of the many Kirklees Markets, its quite evident that Kirklees Council have cut back too much (followed by blaming the Tories for Labours own overspending) as there's no one to sweep up at the end of the day nor are there any trade waste bins for traders to put their waste into as they use to.

Nice to see that Calderdale Council is still no overall control, but by looking at the local wards you can see which areas are mostly Tory (Ryburn, Brighouse and Rastrick), the Lib Dems won seats in Greetland and in Warley and an independant won the seat in Hipperholme / Norwood Green ward with whatevers left being taken by Labour. Park and Town wards in Halifax seem to be very safe seats.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If they known everything about Farage I doubt it. It makes no sense why so many people trusted him over the EU, I think many wrongly saw him as 'one of us' not as a rich former Conservative Party member who left because even the Eurosceptics in the party weren't right wing enough for him. He even shot himself in the foot by saying he and his family would 'suffer' if he didn't take his MEP pension in full.

You do realise that some people on the left voted to leave the EU too, as Dennis Skinner, Frank Fields and Kate Hooey are Labour MPs and those three voted Leave. So it wasn't a "right wing" issue as some point out, it was across the board on all spectrums.

 

[northwichcat]

You do realise that some people on the left voted to leave the EU too, as Dennis Skinner, Frank Fields and Kate Hooey are Labour MPs and those three voted Leave. So it wasn't a "right wing" issue as some point out, it was across the board on all spectrums.

You missed my point completely - Farage managed to sell himself many of the working class as being 'one of them' despite being nothing of the sort. Farage has proved he has excellent selling skills, so brilliant that he can convince people that black is white. The Labour MPs you mention were hardly the poster faces of Brexit. Kate Hoey is really one of those MPs who is in the wrong party - does someone supports grammar schools and opposes state welfare and Britain accepting child refugees really sound like someone who is a left wing MP? Some of her views makes Conservative MP Heidi Allen look like a far left MP in comparison!

 

[northwichcat]

Farage is at least a conviction politician. Naturally that won’t mean anything to those who believe the oh so-trust-worthy EU is perfect and can do no wrong.

Of course most remain voting sheep know absolutely nothing about the EU, which explains why they voted as they did.

I can accept views that don't agree with my own. For instance, I wasn't in favour of the inheritance tax threshold being raised to £1m but I can understand why some people feel inheritance tax is unfair. However, Farage is clever in that he knows average Joe doesn't really know that much about the EU so he can mislead average Joe and average Joe doesn't even realise he's lying. You can't do that with domestic policy, which is probably why Farage was never successful in his quest to become a MP.

 

[Bromley boy]

I can accept views that don't agree with my own. For instance, I wasn't in favour of the inheritance tax threshold being raised to £1m but I can understand why some people feel inheritance tax is unfair. However, Farage is clever in that he knows average Joe doesn't really know that much about the EU so he can mislead average Joe and average Joe doesn't even realise he's lying. You can do that with domestic policy, which is probably why Farage was never successful in his quest to become a MP.

I personally think Farage gets an unduly hard time. In fact the vast majority of his criticisms of the EU are completely legitimate (albeit the U.K. establishment has tried to sweep them under the carpet).

Yes he’s been an MEP for years but it’s also true that his previous career in the city would have been potentially more lucrative had he maintained it, so I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s lined his own pockets at the expense of the EU.

Agreed he (and UKIP) are largely a one trick poney, with little to say beyond EU issues.

 

[yorksrob]

I personally think Farage gets an unduly hard time. In fact the vast majority of his criticisms of the EU are completely legitimate (albeit the U.K. establishment has tried to sweep them under the carpet).

Yes he’s been an MEP for years but it’s also true that his previous career in the city would have been potentially more lucrative had he maintained it, so I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s lined his own pockets at the expense of the EU.

Agreed he (and UKIP) are largely a one trick poney, with little to say beyond EU issues.

It was horrendous seeing him marauding around the European Parliament after the referendum. He could have been diplomatic about it, but he wasn't.

 

[158756]

There has been an increase in Independents winning seats on local councils in recent years. Election rules state that if someone is a member of a political party they have to declare it, even if they haven't been selected by the party to stand as their candidate, so the reality is even if the main political parties didn't choose candidates for local elections you'd end up with voting papers like

BOOTH Independent Lib Dem
COLLINS Independent
JONES Independent Labour
PETERS Independent
SMITH Independent Conservative

Only real difference would be two 'Independent Conservatives' (or members of any other party) might compete against each other.

This isn't the case. It's very rare at council or parliamentary level to stand without the party name, because the party will usually get more votes than any individual and you'll be thrown out for standing against an official party candidate. At parish council level however, almost everyone stands as an independent, even though many are party members. I know, for example, that the chair of my parish council is a Conservative, because he tried to get elected to the district council as such, whilst in the parish council election on the same day the 'description' box was empty.

The only descriptions that can legally be used in a district/county council or Westminster election by a candidate without a party endorsement are 'Independent' and leaving it blank.

 

[Butts]

I note the BNP lost their last remaining Councillor as the said member of Pendle Council ran as an Independent.

Not that long ago they had MEP's - a foretaste of UKIP's likely similar demise ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course most remain voting sheep know absolutely nothing about the EU, which explains why they voted as they did.

I note that you had the good sense to ensure the word "most" was incorporated in your quote above, as both my good lady wife and I, both in our mid-70s, voted "remain" in the referendum and pride ourselves that we have a very good knowledge of what the EU is and of the functions that it performs.

 

[northwichcat]

This isn't the case. It's very rare at council or parliamentary level to stand without the party name, because the party will usually get more votes than any individual and you'll be thrown out for standing against an official party candidate. At parish council level however, almost everyone stands as an independent, even though many are party members. I know, for example, that the chair of my parish council is a Conservative, because he tried to get elected to the district council as such, whilst in the parish council election on the same day the 'description' box was empty.

The only descriptions that can legally be used in a district/county council or Westminster election by a candidate without a party endorsement are 'Independent' and leaving it blank.

It is the case. A lot more local councils now have independents and councillors from local resident's alliances who stand for an independent group. The BBC reported a significant number of 'other' seats won on Thursday, even when other doesn't include the Greens and UKIP.

A Conservative standing as an Independent should appear on the paper as Independent Conservative unless you mean they've left the party but the Conservatives decided not to challenge them for the seat. There are some people who join a political party, which doesn't seem to align with their views and then when they get elected they let the party membership expire and stand next time as an independent.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is the case. A lot more local councils now have independents and councillors from local resident's alliances who stand for an independent group. The BBC reported a significant increase in 'other' seats won on Thursday, even when other doesn't include the Greens and UKIP.

Where two of my wife's friends live, in Heald Green, for many years all three of the local councillors who stand for that area are representing the ratepayers, but are classified as independents. The result of the council election in the Heald Green ward 2018 election was:-
Ratepayers (Independent).....2056
Labour.................................608
Conservative........................416
Liberal Democrats.................203
Green Party..........................114
UKIP.....................................82

The independent candidate gained far more votes than the combined vote of all five of the other candidates.

 

[furnessvale]

I note that you had the good sense to ensure the word "most" was incorporated in your quote above, as both my good lady wife and I, both in our mid-70s, voted "remain" in the referendum and pride ourselves that we have a very good knowledge of what the EU is and of the functions that it performs.

But surely you, just like me, are one of those misguided pensioners who should not have been allowed to vote!

 

[furnessvale]

It was horrendous seeing him marauding around the European Parliament after the referendum. He could have been diplomatic about it, but he wasn't.

About as diplomatic as many EU "persons" since we voted!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But surely you, just like me, are one of those misguided pensioners who should not have been allowed to vote!

At least there are more chances of people of our generation actually taking the time to cast our vote than some of the younger others of the apethetic persuasion.

 

[yorksrob]

About as diplomatic as many EU "persons" since we voted!

True maybe. But I don't think it did us any favours.

 

[northwichcat]

I personally think Farage gets an unduly hard time. In fact the vast majority of his criticisms of the EU are completely legitimate (albeit the U.K. establishment has tried to sweep them under the carpet).

Yes he’s been an MEP for years but it’s also true that his previous career in the city would have been potentially more lucrative had he maintained it, so I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s lined his own pockets at the expense of the EU.

Agreed he (and UKIP) are largely a one trick poney, with little to say beyond EU issues.

UKIP and the European parliament has similarities with Sinn Fein and Westminster, while they don't refuse to attend altogether they do often stay away in protest. I'm not sure if Sinn Fein MPs are able to get MP salaries but UKIP MEPs certainly get their full MEP salaries (and pensions) and unlike those in Westminster who think MP salaries are too high, I'm not aware of UKIP MEPs donating any of their salaries to good causes. Many people voluntarily give up a well paid job to take on a different job on a lower salary, that's not something unique about Farage.

UKIP have tried to come up with radical domestic policies. Remember Farage's controversial pay for doctor's appointments proposal? I'm sure most people don't think the current system is perfect and realise people forget to cancel appointments they don't need and some people make appointments for conditions which could be treated by something obtained over the pharmacist's counter. However, I'm also sure most people don't want the face the potential prospect of getting very ill and needing to attend regular appointments at huge expense so if they were sat opposite Farage when he suggested that, they would question the viability of his proposal. Yet when it's the EU people are less well informed so don't think of the counter-argument.

The EU isn't perfect but neither is the prospect of Britain outside the single market and customs union.

 

[EM2]

Ah yes. Farage, the man who was wholeheartedly against UK membership in the EU but had no trouble taking their money. Solid conviction there

Doesn't want a passport with European Union written on it. Happy to have a pension cheque that does.

 

[158756]

It is the case. A lot more local councils now have independents and councillors from local resident's alliances who stand for an independent group. The BBC reported a significant increase in 'other' seats won on Thursday, even when other doesn't include the Greens and UKIP.

A Conservative standing as an Independent should appear on the paper as Independent Conservative unless you mean they've left the party but the Conservatives decided not to challenge them for the seat. There are some people who join a political party, which doesn't seem to align with their views and then when they get elected they let the party membership expire and stand next time as an independent.

It is impossible for anyone to appear on a ballot paper as an independent Conservative. It was once quite common, but since 1999 you can only either stand as a party candidate, with a registered description of the party, or as an independent candidate, described either as independent or nothing. At no point in the nomination process are you asked which, if any, party you are a member of - you are only asked what description you would like to use. See parts 2a and 2b here: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/candidate-or-agent/local-elections-in-england

Where two of my wife's friends live, in Heald Green, for many years all three of the local councillors who stand for that area are representing the ratepayers, but are classified as independents. The result of the council election in the Heald Green ward 2018 election was:-
Ratepayers (Independent).....2056
Labour.................................608
Conservative........................416
Liberal Democrats.................203
Green Party..........................114
UKIP.....................................82

The independent candidate gained far more votes than the combined vote of all five of the other candidates.

In this example, the Ratepayer candidate had no description on the ballot paper - they cannot legally call themselves Ratepayers on the ballot paper, though they could if they registered themselves as a political party.

 

[gnolife]

Farage is at least a conviction politician. Naturally that won’t mean anything to those who believe the oh so-trust-worthy EU is perfect and can do no wrong.

Of course most remain voting sheep know absolutely nothing about the EU, which explains why they voted as they did.

Surely a vast majority of people who voted on both sides qualify as 'sheep', knowing absolutely nothing about the EU, and just voting on a whim/on the basis of what was put out by politicians (who I broadly regard as talking out of their backsides on both sides of the issue)

 

[fowler9]

I am not at all happy with the results of the local elections, people clearly didn't know what they were voting for, I demand the elections are re-run! ( where have I heard that before!).
Seriously though, I am dismayed but not entirely surprised Labour now have a clear majority in my local council Kirklees, their track record is absolutely appalling, the demise of Huddersfield will now carry on unabated.

Elections are re run every few years. It's called democracy. Having one vote and then sticking with it forever would be a dictatorship.

 

[beeza1]

Elections are re run every few years. It's called democracy. Having one vote and then sticking with it forever would be a dictatorship.

Crikey has no one got a sense of humour on here?, it was a lighthearted dig at the remoaners who were demanding another referendum because the EU vote didn't go their way, it was not in any way a serious suggestion.

 

[Bromley boy]

I note that you had the good sense to ensure the word "most" was incorporated in your quote above, as both my good lady wife and I, both in our mid-70s, voted "remain" in the referendum and pride ourselves that we have a very good knowledge of what the EU is and of the functions that it performs.

As did many of my aquaintances, close friends and family members. I have no issue at all with well informed people (as I’m sure you and your wife are) educating themselves on the relevant issues and voting based on a reasoned view.

Many people voluntarily give up a well paid job to take on a different job on a lower salary, that's not something unique about Farage.

Indeed, but it does rather undermine the oft repeated argument that Farage has used his tenure as an MEP to unjustly enrich himself.

UKIP have tried to come up with radical domestic policies. Remember Farage's controversial pay for doctor's appointments proposal? I'm sure most people don't think the current system is perfect and realise people forget to cancel appointments they don't need and some people make appointments for conditions which could be treated by something obtained over the pharmacist's counter. However, I'm also sure most people don't want the face the potential prospect of getting very ill and needing to attend regular appointments at huge expense so if they were sat opposite Farage when he suggested that, they would question the viability of his proposal. Yet when it's the EU people are less well informed so don't think of the counter-argument.

That was a policy with a kernel of common sense at the centre (stop people wasting drs’ time) but was clearly badly thought out. Farage’s main issue has always been the unfortunate fact that UKIP has always attracted a significant number of basket cases, crack pots and racist oddballs and he has been tarnished by association. This is a large part of why they have never been a successful force in UK politics (although IIRC they attracted more votes than the SNP at the 2010 GE, so those of a left wing persuasion calling for proportional representation should be careful what they wish for!)

I also don’t think it’s fair to say that just because UKIP were pretty misguided on the domestic side of things that their core anti EU message can be considered unsound.

The EU isn't perfect but neither is the prospect of Britain outside the single market and customs union.

I agree neither option is perfect. Which of the two is the least worst comes down to a value judgement.

Doesn't want a passport with European Union written on it. Happy to have a pension cheque that does.

Good for him.

Surely a vast majority of people who voted on both sides qualify as 'sheep', knowing absolutely nothing about the EU, and just voting on a whim/on the basis of what was put out by politicians (who I broadly regard as talking out of their backsides on both sides of the issue)

I completely agree.

But the argument up thread that the result of the referendum can be explained by the fact that lots of uninformed people voted leave would cut the other way if remain had been victorious.

This is also why referenda are generally a very bad idea and should be reserved only for constitutional matters. It also underlines why we shouldn’t have another referendum before leaving the EU.

 

[fowler9]

Crikey has no one got a sense of humour on here?, it was a lighthearted dig at the remoaners who were demanding another referendum because the EU vote didn't go their way, it was not in any way a serious suggestion.

My bad. I should just lighten up as a "remoaner" about having my country changed in a way I think will affect it very negatively. Hey, £350 million extra for the NHS eh!