Local elections and UKIP

[NorthernSpirit]

For me I had a choice of either Conservative, Greens, Lib Dems or Labour. No guess at which box I put my cross in since UKIP weren't standing.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The English Democrats are the English version of what the Scottish National Party is Scotland and Plaid Cymru is to Wales. One of their policies is the created of a devolved English Parlament.

I suspect they may be more sinister than Plaid, or at least attract support from the more sinister fringes of society. The defections to them from UKIP are an indicator of this.

England as a whole is too big and too diverse for a devolved assembly to be worthwhile though. People in Newcastle and Newquay complain about everything being focused on London, not Cardiff or Edinburgh. An English parliament would not solve this issue.

Genuine regional devolution, and a switch to a Federal system as seen in Germany is something I'd support in theory, but a single English parliament would be pointless IMO.

 

[birchesgreen]

The ward reorganisation was interesting in Birmingham. I live in a fairly safe Labour seat (though not as safe as it used to be) in parliamentary elections but the neighbouring ward Castle Vale went Tory (which is kind of bizarre to think about to be honest) and my ward was a Labour win by 16 votes!

Looking at some of the results what is interesting is the polarisation which was apparent in the GE seems to have continued. The two main parties get the vast majority of the votes between them with third parties (usually Liberals) trailing a very distant third.

 

[northwichcat]

In a way, I'm not surprised that ukip were wiped out. What I surprised at is the libdem vote resulting not only in councillors but control of councils.
And I would have thought that more of the minor / independent parties would have made a better showing this time around.
Interesting that some media were reporting (after about half the results had been declared) that Labour has taken a pasting, yet they had increased the total number of councillors ...

Been able to sit back and watch the circus as my home area is not having elections this year.

It should be remembered that the council seats up for election last Thursday were last up for election in 2014 - 4 years in a Conservative-Lib Dem coalition government. It seemed in both the 2014 local elections and 2015 general elections people who usually voted Lib Dem didn't vote for them to punish them for letting Conservatives get unpopular policies through. However, ironically it was Conservatives who gained seats by voters doing that.

 

[northwichcat]

I suspect they may be more sinister than Plaid, or at least attract support from the more sinister fringes of society. The defections to them from UKIP are an indicator of this.

Agreed. The English Democrats are to the right of the political spectrum so they are more like an English version of the DUP than one of Plaid Cymru or the SNP.

 

[northwichcat]

Councils tend to be fairly removed from national politics though. Councils have little (no) say in Brexit policy for example and so (eg) voting for a Lib Dem councillor on the basis of the Lib Dems being anti-Brexit is a thoroughly stupid thing to do if the Labour candidate is going above and beyond them in terms of bin collections and other locally important matters.

What the Lib Dems or Greens offer if they are elected to local councils seems to vary quite a bit depending which council area you live in, whereas what the Conservatives and Labour offer seems to tie in more with their national policy e.g. under Conservative councils they promise efficiency savings (i.e. cuts to essential public services) and the only question is which services are cut back and which retain their funding.

I think the only way Brexit can come in to a local election is that some areas of the country get a lot of EU funding, so it would be fair enough for election material to mention putting pressure on the government to ensure the area doesn't lose funding as a result of Brexit but things like the single market, passport control etc. certainly aren't relevant with regards to local councils.

 

[Geezertronic]

The ward reorganisation was interesting in Birmingham. I live in a fairly safe Labour seat (though not as safe as it used to be) in parliamentary elections but the neighbouring ward Castle Vale went Tory (which is kind of bizarre to think about to be honest) and my ward was a Labour win by 16 votes!

The usual Labour suspects won in my ward Glebe Farm & Tile Cross not that I voted for them

 

[beeza1]

I am not at all happy with the results of the local elections, people clearly didn't know what they were voting for, I demand the elections are re-run! ( where have I heard that before!).
Seriously though, I am dismayed but not entirely surprised Labour now have a clear majority in my local council Kirklees, their track record is absolutely appalling, the demise of Huddersfield will now carry on unabated.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I am not at all happy with the results of the local elections, people clearly didn't know what they were voting for, I demand the elections are re-run! ( where have I heard that before!).
Seriously though, I am dismayed but not entirely surprised Labour now have a clear majority in my local council Kirklees, their track record is absolutely appalling, the demise of Huddersfield will now carry on unabated.

Demise of Huddersfield? In what way? Huddersfield has issues for sure, but they're things which every other similarly-sized place suffers from, and are more down to national policy than local. Exhibit A being the "managed decline" of the Infirmary.

As a Huddersfield-born resident of Batley, I'd argue that (much like England as a devolved area) "Kirklees" is too big to work as a local authority area... though without Huddersfield propping it up, Dewsbury would struggle even more!

 

[northwichcat]

I am not at all happy with the results of the local elections, people clearly didn't know what they were voting for, I demand the elections are re-run! ( where have I heard that before!).

Really? Only time I can recall hearing for elections to be re-run is when UKIP didn't win a by-election (I think it was in Rochdale) and when George Galloway lost his Bradford seat to Labour. If you don't like what your local council does over the next 4 years you can vote for change in 4 years time.

A referendum is something very different. In theory a local council can hold a referendum over whether to increase council tax by 7% or close libraries. In practice if the close libraries option won but the council was given additional money by the government meaning they could keep libraries open without the 7% increase they wouldn't have a 'mandate from the people' to close the libraries and the referendum result would be meaningless. In the event of them not getting additional money there is also no reason why they couldn't hold a second referendum on a 6% increase plus two library closures or a 4% increase and ten library closures. That's something some hardcore Brexiteers don't seem to understand.

 

[AlterEgo]

A referendum is something very different. In theory a local council can hold a referendum over whether to increase council tax by 7% or close libraries. In practice if the close libraries option won but the council was given additional money by the government meaning they could keep libraries open without the 7% increase they wouldn't have a 'mandate from the people' to close the libraries and the referendum result would be meaningless. In the event of them not getting additional money there is also no reason why they couldn't hold a second referendum on a 6% increase plus two library closures or a 4% increase and ten library closures. That's something some hardcore Brexiteers don't seem to understand.

Depends on why people voted to close down the libraries - in your analogy you suggest the people have considered the cost/benefit analysis of keeping libraries open versus having to pay more money for the service.

A better analogy would be if people voted to close the libraries because they hate libraries, they’re run by people they have contempt for, they don’t understand what, if anything, libraries deliver for them and closing the libraries would be a bloody nose for what they consider the smug liberal elite.

That would be a better analogy, and if the government injected more money it wouldn’t make a difference to the democratic mandate given.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Just wondered. Did anybody outside of Liverpool have the Liberal Party on their ballot papers or are they just a local small party with a small voter base?

 

[northwichcat]

Depends on why people voted to close down the libraries - in your analogy you suggest the people have considered the cost/benefit analysis of keeping libraries open versus having to pay more money for the service.

A better analogy would be if people voted to close the libraries because they hate libraries, they’re run by people they have contempt for, they don’t understand what, if anything, libraries deliver for them and closing the libraries would be a bloody nose for what they consider the smug liberal elite.

That would be a better analogy, and if the government injected more money it wouldn’t make a difference to the democratic mandate given.

Or using your analogy if people don't want libraries in their current form a second vote could still happen on whether people just don't want a book loaning service anymore (once the main purpose of a library) or want all facilities offered by libraries scrapped.

 

[AlterEgo]

Or using your analogy if people don't want libraries in their current form a second vote could still happen on whether people just don't want a book loaning service anymore (once the main purpose of a library) or want all facilities offered by libraries scrapped.

But no layperson could hope to understand the complexity of customs unions or single markets, much less the issue of the EU. I wasn’t a fan of the idea of the original referendum and I don’t think we should compound the problem by holding further referenda on issues no ordinary voter could hope to understand.

 

[northwichcat]

Just wondered. Did anybody outside of Liverpool have the Liberal Party on their ballot papers or are they just a local small party with a small voter base?

There weren't elections in my council borough but I'm aware the Liberal Party put forward candidates for Hale Central and Timperley on Trafford Council. In the case of Hale Central I don't think they even got enough votes to get their deposit back, in the case of Timperley they did better and got more votes than the Green candidate and probably helped the Conservatives win the seat by preventing the Lib Dems getting the couple hundred extra votes they needed to win the seat.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

There weren't elections in my council borough but I'm aware the Liberal Party put forward candidates for Hale Central and Timperley on Trafford Council. In the case of Hale Central I don't think they even got enough votes to get their deposit back, in the case of Timperley they did better and got more votes than the Green candidate and probably helped the Conservatives win the seat by preventing the Lib Dems getting the couple hundred extra votes they needed to win the seat.

This is perhaps one of the biggest reasons to get rid of First Past The Post voting in the UK. It wasn't designed for more than two parties contesting, and as such some liberal voters who may not have identified with the Lib Dems ended up allowing the Tories to win by default. This is called the spoiler effect as you may be aware. It sucks to have to tactically vote for someone you don't like just because you don't like the other guy more, rather than actually vote for a candidate who you identify more with.

 

[northwichcat]

But no layperson could hope to understand the complexity of customs unions or single markets, much less the issue of the EU. I wasn’t a fan of the idea of the original referendum and I don’t think we should compound the problem by holding further referenda on issues no ordinary voter could hope to understand.

Plus a lot of the people who don't understand don't want to listen to those who do understand because they are 'the wrong type of people.'

 

[AlterEgo]

Plus a lot of the people who don't understand don't want to listen to those who do understand because they are 'the wrong type of people.'

That one cuts both ways.

 

[yorksrob]

But no layperson could hope to understand the complexity of customs unions or single markets, much less the issue of the EU. I wasn’t a fan of the idea of the original referendum and I don’t think we should compound the problem by holding further referenda on issues no ordinary voter could hope to understand.

That makes the assumption that elected representatives are better at understanding the issues than the population are.

I'm coming round to the opinion that we need more direct democracy in this country generally.

 

[northwichcat]

This is perhaps one of the biggest reasons to get rid of First Past The Post voting in the UK. It wasn't designed for more than two parties contesting, and as such some liberal voters who may not have identified with the Lib Dems ended up allowing the Tories to win by default. This is called the spoiler effect as you may be aware. It sucks to have to tactically vote for someone you don't like just because you don't like the other guy more, rather than actually vote for a candidate who you identify more with.

Speaking of referendums and first past the post, remember we had a referendum on using the alternative voting system and despite it being rejected in a referendum the government decided to use it anyway for the new PCC elections, while other elections remained on the existing system? It was also claimed a number of people voted against it because they felt if it was implemented it would make proportional representation less likely to happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

That makes the assumption that elected representatives are better at understanding the issues than the population are.

I'm coming round to the opinion that we need more direct democracy in this country generally.

I think for all the faults of elected representatives (and the unelected ones!) - they are much more invested in gnawing through the issues and are generally more intelligent than the average Joe Public.

 

[northwichcat]

That makes the assumption that elected representatives are better at understanding the issues than the population are.

I'm coming round to the opinion that we need more direct democracy in this country generally.

It of course depends on the background of the politician. While he's not liked as much as pre- the coalition government Vince Cable is probably one of the most qualified people to understand what the impact of leaving the customs union and single market would be. Without any disrespect intended Laura Smith (MP for Crewe and Nantwich) was a teacher/tutor up until the election last year, so while she has areas of expertise I wouldn't expect them to include properly understanding what the impact of leaving the customs union and single market would be. We kind of have to hope those MPs with the relevant knowledge share it with those MPs without and at the same time in an impartial way so each MP is equipped to make their own decision.

 

[SS4]

Castle Vale went Tory (which is kind of bizarre to think about to be honest)

You can say that again!

Looking at some of the results what is interesting is the polarisation which was apparent in the GE seems to have continued. The two main parties get the vast majority of the votes between them with third parties (usually Liberals) trailing a very distant third.

I'd say the last few elections have been the anomaly and we're returning to normal. FPTP has always favoured two parties over many.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Speaking of referendums and first past the post, remember we had a referendum on using the alternative voting system and despite it being rejected in a referendum the government decided to use it anyway for the new PCC elections, while other elections remained on the existing system? It was also claimed a number of people voted against it because they felt if it was implemented it would make proportional representation less likely to happen.

To be fair though, that referendum had as much, if not more, misinformation put out than the EU referendum. The No2AV side lied through their teeth and made the Alternative Vote system (which is not actually a form of PR in case anyone was hoping that's what would come out of it) something that it wasn't. They made it out like the third place candidate was the winner even though there was more to it than that. The system we have in some elections now is different to AV as well. The system we have now is just two-round voting that eliminates all but the top two, whereas AV goes through several rounds and requires more time to count.

If there's anything recent years have shown us, it's that the common folk can't always make the best decisions. If we left it to the common folks and loudest voices to decide what should happen with things, then Alfie Evans would have probably died on his way to Rome, and we would probably be more divided than ever because of some people being unable to separate their feelings from facts and being unable to think objectively. Fact of the matter is, to put it bluntly, the Average Joe doesn't know codswallop, and the only reason we care now is because politicians are finding it harder to hide their corruption and self-interest.

 

[yorksrob]

I think for all the faults of elected representatives (and the unelected ones!) - they are much more invested in gnawing through the issues and are generally more intelligent than the average Joe Public.

It of course depends on the background of the politician. While he's not liked as much as pre- the coalition government Vince Cable is probably one of the most qualified people to understand what the impact of leaving the customs union and single market would be. Without any disrespect intended Laura Smith (MP for Crewe and Nantwich) was a teacher/tutor up until the election last year, so while she has areas of expertise I wouldn't expect them to include properly understanding what the impact of leaving the customs union and single market would be. We kind of have to hope those MPs with the relevant knowledge share it with those MPs without and at the same time in an impartial way so each MP is equipped to make their own decision.

True to an extent, I'm sure. However I at least partially, blame our current situation on the country having experienced forty years of profound constitutional change with barely any consultation, and believe that we could avoid future such situations arising by ensuring that any constitutional change is directly ratified by the electorate.

 

[SS4]

True to an extent, I'm sure. However I at least partially, blame our current situation on the country having experienced forty years of profound constitutional change with barely any consultation, and believe that we could avoid future such situations arising by ensuring that any constitutional change is directly ratified by the electorate.

I wouldn't have any issue with that as long as both the public and the press took responsibility to present only objective fact and to do their research. I fear too many leave voters were influenced by a largely right wing gutter press

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't have any issue with that as long as both the public and the press took responsibility to present only objective fact and to do their research. I fear too many leave voters were influenced by a largely right wing gutter press

Maybe. But I also suspect that the referendum result was at least partially a result of a settled philosophical antipathy towards political union with the continent.

You correctly point out that a certain amount of intellectual rigour is required to pick through the minutiae of constitutional change (although some countries manage this). How much more difficult it is for the public to have to form a settled opinion on those matters, at the same time as deciding how the health service is run and what transport policy we have etc - which is effectively what we ask people to do if we don't have referendums on constitutional issues.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there's anything recent years have shown us, it's that the common folk can't always make the best decisions. If we left it to the common folks and loudest voices to decide what should happen with things, we would probably be more divided than ever because of some people being unable to separate their feelings from facts and being unable to think objectively. Fact of the matter is, to put it bluntly, the Average Joe doesn't know codswallop, and the only reason we care now is because politicians are finding it harder to hide their corruption and self-interest.

The result of "that" referendum bears out what you say.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There weren't elections in my council borough but I'm aware the Liberal Party put forward candidates for Hale Central and Timperley on Trafford Council. In the case of Hale Central I don't think they even got enough votes to get their deposit back, in the case of Timperley they did better and got more votes than the Green candidate and probably helped the Conservatives win the seat by preventing the Lib Dems getting the couple hundred extra votes they needed to win the seat.

Indeed, here in Cheshire East, as we both are, we have to wait until 2019 for our next set of local elections. With regard to Trafford, it is not all an area of supposed affluence such as Bowdon and Hale Barns that can be found in its southern reaches, but there are northern areas near to Manchester that are totally different.

You will not be surprised that I was delighted to hear that the Conservatives had actually taken Redditch from its former Labour control.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair though, that referendum had as much, if not more, misinformation put out than the EU referendum. The No2AV side lied through their teeth and made the Alternative Vote system (which is not actually a form of PR in case anyone was hoping that's what would come out of it) something that it wasn't. They made it out like the third place candidate was the winner even though there was more to it than that. The system we have in some elections now is different to AV as well. The system we have now is just two-round voting that eliminates all but the top two, whereas AV goes through several rounds and requires more time to count.

I would really have liked to see the European Parliament elections have a proper AV system. It seemed strange that you got such a big paper and multiple seats were available for your region but you were only allowed to make one mark on the paper. Not that it matters now.