LNER New Trains (2023-)

[XAM2175]

Does anybody have a link to the detail of the traction systems on originally ICE1 or Class120?

Most of the real detail is in books or trade publications, I'm afraid. There is decent coverage in the German Wikipedia article, at least:

DB-Baureihe 120 – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

 

[Bald Rick]

I take it traffic densities are way up from when GNER did it with the "White Rose" sets?

Somewhat, yes, and also there was only ever a couple of the 373/2s in use at any one time, which makes it just ‘awkward’ to platform at the various stations. Rather different to having a whole fleet of the things running about.

 

[alexl92]

Ah… so Hitachi are completely uninvolved, for once! Very exciting. Would love to see a brand new Siemens or Alstom unit take to the ECML.

Thank goodness. I know it's a tired line but I really hate the Azumas, they're so uncomfortable.

This might be an odd question, but if the new fleet would be a microfleet (so not a 80x), then why don't they just stick with the class 91+mark 4? They're not that old, seem to work perfectly fine, and I'd guess the only problem with them is that they're an odd microfleet. So if that isn't fixed anyway, why not just keep them long-term?

Plus the engineers already have extensive experience of the 91s.

I wonder if procuring something with quicker acceleration would allow improvements to the timetable? Or, if the MK4 sets are being shortened, could the91s be regeared to accelerate slightly quicker whilst maintaining a 125mph top speed?

 

[class26]

Thank goodness. I know it's a tired line but I really hate the Azumas, they're so uncomfortable.

I presume you refer to the seats ? That`s not the fault of Azumas but the DFT. If the seats were replaced would you like them then ?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thank goodness. I know it's a tired line but I really hate the Azumas, they're so uncomfortable.


Plus the engineers already have extensive experience of the 91s.

I wonder if procuring something with quicker acceleration would allow improvements to the timetable? Or, if the MK4 sets are being shortened, could the91s be regeared to accelerate slightly quicker whilst maintaining a 125mph top speed?

I like the Azumas but I just long for some more variety.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank goodness. I know it's a tired line but I really hate the Azumas, they're so uncomfortable.


Plus the engineers already have extensive experience of the 91s.

I wonder if procuring something with quicker acceleration would allow improvements to the timetable? Or, if the MK4 sets are being shortened, could the91s be regeared to accelerate slightly quicker whilst maintaining a 125mph top speed?

Shortening was supposedly the means of improving the performance to match 80x stock on AC - that’s how it was explained in the 2016 track access application, which assumed 6 short rakes for Edinburgh fasts:
”A small fleet of 225s will be retained beyond May 2020 for deployment mainly on the fast King’s Cross <> Edinburgh services (six rakes of seven Mark IV coaches). Reducing the formation by two Mark IV coaches will allow the 225s to achieve compatible timings with the 800/1 for limited stop services. ”
Based on that I don’t think they’d be expecting them to be regeared as well?

 

[Trainbike46]

Shortening was supposedly the means of improving the performance to match 80x stock on AC - that’s how it was explained in the 2016 track access application, which assumed 6 short rakes for Edinburgh fasts:
”A small fleet of 225s will be retained beyond May 2020 for deployment mainly on the fast King’s Cross <> Edinburgh services (six rakes of seven Mark IV coaches). Reducing the formation by two Mark IV coaches will allow the 225s to achieve compatible timings with the 800/1 for limited stop services. ”
Based on that I don’t think they’d be expecting them to be regeared as well?

If there's no need to regear, then wouldn't it be possible to run a train with two 91s, without the DVT to get the better performance and full length?

 

[swt_passenger]

If there's no need to regear, then wouldn't it be possible to run a train with two 91s, without the DVT to get the better performance and full length?

I don’t know, but I’d be surprised if the power supply would cope with that…

 

[43096]

I don’t know, but I’d be surprised if the power supply would cope with that…

You also can’t couple a 91 directly to the end first class Mark 4.

 

[Trainbike46]

You also can’t couple a 91 directly to the end first class Mark 4.

Why not?

 

[hexagon789]

Why not?

Incompatible couplers, the 91 (or any loco ftm) can only couple to the non-gangwayed outer end of the TSOE vehicle or the nose end of the DVT.

 

[MattRat]

The last order of new passenger trains for the UK for a long time will likely be the new Tyne & Wear Metro fleet. We could easily be looking at a repeat of the 1990s no new train orders period.

And when the oldest trains on the network give up the ghost, what then?

 

[D365]

The last order of new passenger trains for the UK for a long time will likely be the new Tyne & Wear Metro fleet. We could easily be looking at a repeat of the 1990s no new train orders period.

ScotRail are known to be looking at new fleets...

 

[Bald Rick]

And when the oldest trains on the network give up the ghost, what then?

Then the Bakerloo line will have ‘severe delays’!

 

[alexl92]

If there's no need to regear, then wouldn't it be possible to run a train with two 91s, without the DVT to get the better performance and full length?

The problem then is that there's no guard's accommodation in the set AFAIK. When a MK3 short set was used by Greater Anglia a few years ago, they had to run top-and-tailed 37s with 2x MK3 coach and 1x MK3a DVT, because otherwise there was nowhere for the guard within a 2 coach MK3 set.

Incompatible couplers, the 91 (or any loco ftm) can only couple to the non-gangwayed outer end of the TSOE vehicle or the nose end of the DVT.

Are there any TSOEs sitting around as spares? Stick one on each end?

 

[DanNCL]

Many reasons why replacing the DVTs with an extra 91 wouldn’t be viable. The power supply wouldn’t be able to handle a second 91, extensive modifications would be needed to the first class vehicle, and there aren’t enough operational 91s to do so.

 

[Snow1964]

Out of interest, if more Azuma were ordered (doesn’t have to be same length) what would be the delivery period, assuming they follow on from 807, 810 etc

 

[43096]

Are there any TSOEs sitting around as spares? Stick one on each end?

There aren’t.

 

[RobShipway]

Out of interest, if more Azuma were ordered (doesn’t have to be same length) what would be the delivery period, assuming they follow on from 807, 810 etc

I suspect that they probably would not be built much before about 2025/26, so they would not be into service until 2027. But could be later, if reaction to the new seats in the EMR class 810 by the public is waited to be seen, before ordering any new sets.

 

[Pete_uk]

Stadler could build something good.

 

[Trainbike46]

Stadler could build something good.

A SMILE derivate for the UK would be amazing!

Though 125 mph FLIRTS do exist in the EU, so that is also an option

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2022 ==

though from the perspective of having a unified fleet, an 80x would make the most sense wouldn't it?
I'm still surprised they didn't win apparently; something fully electric for LNER, such as a longer 803 or 805 would have been nice

 

[D365]

Stadler could build something good.

Did they bid? My impression was that it was between Hitachi and CAF.

 

[TheBigD]

Did they bid? My impression was that it was between Hitachi and CAF.

Modern Railways also reported that a Chinese company had also bid, though the name escapes me.

 

[D365]

Modern Railways also reported that a Chinese company had also bid, though the name escapes me.

I don’t think that their bid had progressed very far.

 

[Hadders]

Remember 312m Eurostars did operate on the ECML for several years.

They did and I regularly used to travel on the 21:00 between Kings Cross and Stevenage.

IIRC there was only a couple of platforms they were able to use at Kings Cross, and even then I think there were carriages off the platform. At Stevenage there were four carriages that couldn't be platformed. You certainly had to make sure you travelled in the correct carriage!

Not really feasible for a regular LNER service.

 

[RobShipway]

Did they bid? My impression was that it was between Hitachi and CAF.

If it was between Hitachi and CAF, but Hitachi is not favoured, then I am presuming it is CAF Civity trains that have won and that we will be seeing 5 - 9 car class 397's being built in Wales? I am also presuming that it will be a BEMU train?

 

[Snow1964]

If it was between Hitachi and CAF, but Hitachi is not favoured, then I am presuming it is CAF Civity trains that have won and that we will be seeing 5 - 9 car class 397's being built in Wales? I am also presuming that it will be a BEMU train?

If CAF are going to build the trains in Wales, I wonder if there will be a political fudge and about 10 class 800s get transferred from GWR to LNER (if it is mid 2020s, probably be close to being due a repaint anyway).

Then new trains built for London - South Wales, and possibly more of same type to sort out the overcrowded Wessex services and maybe even a further batch to replace Castle HSTs

 

[urpert]

Off the top of my head a significant portion of the fleet of ICE 1 power cars was built at the same time as the 91s were - but they were far more advanced than the 91s, even back then.

Oh, and most of the TGV Atlantique sets too.


But considering that the intent is there, and the dead hand of the DfT isn't, it still makes your claim that "the last order of new passenger trains for the UK for a long time will likely be the new Tyne & Wear Metro fleet" seem a little bit over-bold, no? Or are you just ruling out the order completely anyway?

Sybics on the TER200 Alsace services are a similar age too.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Modern Railways also reported that a Chinese company had also bid, though the name escapes me.

CRRC [insert flavour here]?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is there any solid news on the new fleet?
I created this thread to find out what was confirmed to be happening. Only lots of people have speculated and now it’s been moved to Speculative Ideas