LNER New Trains (2023-)

[Speed43125]

Hitachi was not the selected final bidder!

And it wasn’t hitachi who opened the legal Avenue to dispute the choice!

That is most fascinating. Here's holding hope for a UK loading gauge RABe 501.

This might be an odd question, but if the new fleet would be a microfleet (so not a 80x), then why don't they just stick with the class 91+mark 4? They're not that old, seem to work perfectly fine, and I'd guess the only problem with them is that they're an odd microfleet. So if that isn't fixed anyway, why not just keep them long-term?

They are now all over 30 years old and their reliability and performance is far below the 80x fleet.
Above all, we'll get to have a repeat of speculation about tfw or Grand Union taking on the redundant stock in a few years

 

[krus_aragon]

This might be an odd question, but if the new fleet would be a microfleet (so not a 80x), then why don't they just stick with the class 91+mark 4? They're not that old, seem to work perfectly fine, and I'd guess the only problem with them is that they're an odd microfleet. So if that isn't fixed anyway, why not just keep them long-term?

So that TfW can take on extra MkIV rakes when they're spare? (Meh, I can hope...)


(Edit: I wrote this out before the above post arrived.)

 

[skyhigh]

Exactly the same has happened at Northern where CAF have been selected to supply an additional 20 new DMUs but the DFT won’t allow any contracts to be signed.

Are you certain on that?

Hybrid 195s are not being ordered, but not because of the DfT not signing off on them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2022 ==

Ah… so Hitachi are completely uninvolved, for once! Very exciting. Would love to see a brand new Siemens or Alstom unit take to the ECML.

CAF were selected as far as I'm aware.

 

[RobShipway]

I am suspecting that CAF have the order with something similar to class 397, but do I remember that the other Spanish Manufacturer Talgo put in a bid I believe? Would be good to see something like a Talgo 250 Hybrid train with diesel/battery power car at one end and electric power car at the other end.

 

[XAM2175]

The last order of new passenger trains for the UK for a long time will likely be the new Tyne & Wear Metro fleet. We could easily be looking at a repeat of the 1990s no new train orders period.

I hadn't realised that England had become the entirety of the UK

 

[DanNCL]

This might be an odd question, but if the new fleet would be a microfleet (so not a 80x), then why don't they just stick with the class 91+mark 4? They're not that old, seem to work perfectly fine, and I'd guess the only problem with them is that they're an odd microfleet. So if that isn't fixed anyway, why not just keep them long-term?

The Mark 4s could be life extended further but there’s a limit. They’re already 30+ years old, and if I recall correctly the oldest remaining electrics globally that still run at 125mph daily. If not replaced in the next few years, they’d need replacing by 2030 at the latest but I think even that would be a push.

Here's holding hope for a UK loading gauge RABe 501.

I agree, that would be great!

They are now all over 30 years old and their reliability and performance is far below the 80x fleet.
Above all, we'll get to have a repeat of speculation about tfw or Grand Union taking on the redundant stock in a few years

The 80xs have not been reaching the promised relatability and availability levels, indeed if I recall correctly LNER got a better availability rate out of the 91s in 2019 than they’re getting out of any of their 80x sub fleets today.

I haven’t seen the latest figures, but there’s certainly been times where the 801/2s have had less than 2/3 availability.

The 91s have never been the most reliable, but they’re not significantly worse than the 80xs. That said the 180s are doing quite a good job of making everything else look reliable and that may well be making the 91s look more reliable than they are!

Are you certain on that?

Hybrid 195s are not being ordered, but not because of the DfT not signing off on them.

They may not have been hybrids then but Northern had definitely gotten that far along with attempting to procure more new trains from CAF and have so far been prevented by the DFT from ordering anything.

I am suspecting that CAF have the order with something similar to class 397, but do I remember that the other Spanish Manufacturer Talgo put in a bid I believe? Would be good to see something like a Talgo 250 Hybrid train with diesel/battery power car at one end and electric power car at the other end.

It would certainly be interesting to see anything from Talgo designed for the UK. They’ve got some interesting ideas, although having never been on a Talgo product I don’t know what they’re like for quality.

I hadn't realised that England had become the entirety of the UK

Scotland hasn’t actually ordered anything yet

 

[XAM2175]

The Mark 4s could be life extended further but there’s a limit. They’re already 30+ years old, and if I recall correctly the oldest remaining electrics globally that still run at 125mph daily.

Off the top of my head a significant portion of the fleet of ICE 1 power cars was built at the same time as the 91s were - but they were far more advanced than the 91s, even back then.

Oh, and most of the TGV Atlantique sets too.

Scotland hasn’t actually ordered anything yet

But considering that the intent is there, and the dead hand of the DfT isn't, it still makes your claim that "the last order of new passenger trains for the UK for a long time will likely be the new Tyne & Wear Metro fleet" seem a little bit over-bold, no? Or are you just ruling out the order completely anyway?

 

[skyhigh]

They may not have been hybrids then but Northern had definitely gotten that far along with attempting to procure more new trains from CAF and have so far been prevented by the DFT from ordering anything.

Northern were progressing through the motions of a hybrid 195 order, but it was decided for several reasons to shelve the order. They were intended for additional units during Transpennine Route Upgrade work but due to extended delivery dates from CAF (allegedly due to them focusing on LNER), a higher cost per unit than hoped for and a change of direction the order was put on hold. It never got to the point of DfT signing off on an order.

If the rumours are true, much more than 20 hybrid 195s are on the cards.

 

[Bald Rick]

They’re already 30+ years old, and if I recall correctly the oldest remaining electrics globally that still run at 125mph daily.

TGV Atlantique must run them pretty close for age.

 

[DanNCL]

Off the top of my head a significant portion of the fleet of ICE 1 power cars was built at the same time as the 91s were - but they were far more advanced than the 91s, even back then.

Oh, and most of the TGV Atlantique sets too.

TGV Atlantique must run them pretty close for age.

I'd forgotten about the TGV Atlantiques. Didn't realise the ICE 1s were so old!

 

[Bald Rick]

ICE1s entered service 2-3 years after the Class 91s.

 

[XAM2175]

The intent certainly is there, but even under the SNP's timeline ... no order will be placed for at least another year. That would put the gap between new orders at just under 4 years, so longer than the 1068 day gap between train orders in the 90s!

Oh yeah, that's fair for the '90s part of the remark, but "the last order of new passenger trains for the UK for a long time..." could be read as meaning a long time from now, which doesn't quite gel with an order being placed next year!

ICE1s entered service 2-3 years after the Class 91s.

Construction of the ICE 1 power cars (series 401) started in 1988, with commissioning taking place from late 1989 onwards, but yes scheduled service with the full ICE 1 trainsets didn't start until June 1991.

 

[Bald Rick]

Construction of the ICE 1 power cars (series 401) started in 1988, with commissioning taking place from late 1989 onwards, but yes scheduled service with the full ICE 1 trainsets didn't start until June 1991.

Correct, all of which was approx 2 years after the 91s. The first 91 was built by January 1988.

 

[43096]

Correct, all of which was approx 2 years after the 91s. The first 91 was built by January 1988.

As the original post was talking about 125mph electric locos, I’ll throw in SNCF Sybics, the oldest of which are of the same age as the 91s. They still operate long distance passenger services and it’s the oldest locos that form that fleet.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

More 80x seems almost a given as their entire fleet would of course then consist purely of the same design of train.

There was that tender or something for 10-car 80x LNER had a while back, perhaps that gives an indication of their preferences in the respect?

I read something in a Modern Railways magazine ages back (not sure which issue) about passive provision for 12-car Azumas.

 

[XAM2175]

Correct, all of which was approx 2 years after the 91s. The first 91 was built by January 1988.

Yes, we're in agreement! I was just noting that in terms of the locomotives specifically the first tranche of ICE 1 power cars was being built at pretty much the same time as the 91 order. Indeed, the first power car (401001) was formally accepted by DB in September 1989, which places it between 91010 and 91011 (April 1989 and February 1990, respectively), and thirty-five power cars had been delivered by May 1990 - which makes all of them older than 91016 and subsequent.

As the original post was talking about 125mph electric locos, I’ll throw in SNCF Sybics, the oldest of which are of the same age as the 91s. They still operate long distance passenger services and it’s the oldest locos that form that fleet.

Ooh, good thinking.

 

[Mikey C]

Surely the last UK order for trains was for the HS2 stock anyway

 

[hexagon789]

I read something in a Modern Railways magazine ages back (not sure which issue) about passive provision for 12-car Azumas.

I thought it was 10-car, but I did read something as well

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I thought it was 10-car, but I did read something as well

12 coaches sets would be more than useful on the ECML.

Hopefully trailers can be ordered without ordering the whole trains themselves!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, we're in agreement! I was just noting that in terms of the locomotives specifically the first tranche of ICE 1 power cars was being built at pretty much the same time as the 91 order. Indeed, the first power car (401001) was formally accepted by DB in September 1989, which places it between 91010 and 91011 (April 1989 and February 1990, respectively), and thirty-five power cars had been delivered by May 1990 - which makes all of them older than 91016 and subsequent.


Ooh, good thinking.

Incredible really, when you see how much more modern and in good condition the ICE 1s appear to be in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

12 coaches sets would be more than useful on the ECML.

Hopefully trailers can be ordered without ordering the whole trains themselves!

Don’t be ridiculous Even 11x 26m coaches would be off of every platform on the line.

 

[Bald Rick]

12 coaches sets would be more than useful on the ECML.

Except at Kings Cross and most other stations, where platforming c312m long trains falls into the category of ‘ambitious’.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought it was 10-car, but I did read something as well

The DfT’s original train technical spec for IEP required them to work in up to 12 car length, although it was explicitly written as 312m. I don’t think they actually suggested the infrastructure would be altered to cope though…

 

[XAM2175]

Incredible really, when you see how much more modern and in good condition the ICE 1s appear to be in.

In fairness to IC225s - the ICE 1 fleet has received a lot more love over the years, including a major interior refresh between 2005 and 2008, and a heavy refurbishment underway at the moment with the aim of keeping them in service past 2030. Additionally, the second tranche of power cars had their traction system upgraded to GTO thyristor whilst before being built, and about fifteen years ago they went back and fitted IGBT control systems to a bunch of the first tranche cars.

This is a good segue back to the original topic, conveniently I don't think that it's unreasonable to say that the IC225s could be stretched out at least another five years if they've given a bit of extra TLC, but it does raise the question of what happens at the end of that time. Unless more Azumas identical to the current ones are ordered, LNER are going to end up with a small supplementary fleet either way.

 

[YorksLad12]

I read something in a Modern Railways magazine ages back (not sure which issue) about passive provision for 12-car Azumas.

Don’t be ridiculous Even 11x 26m coaches would be off of every platform on the line.

Except at Kings Cross and most other stations, where platforming c312m long trains falls into the category of ‘ambitious’.

The DfT’s original train technical spec for IEP required them to work in up to 12 car length, although it was explicitly written as 312m. I don’t think they actually suggested the infrastructure would be altered to cope though…

Ha! My suggestion of more class 810s not so daft then

 

[tomuk]

Additionally, the second tranche of power cars had their traction system upgraded to GTO thyristor whilst before being built, and about fifteen years ago they went back and fitted IGBT control systems to a bunch of the first tranche cars.

If the second tranche had GTOs from new and they all have\are being upgraded to IGBT what traction system did the first tranche of power cars have from new? I assume they didn't have DC traction motors.

 

[RobShipway]

In fairness to IC225s - the ICE 1 fleet has received a lot more love over the years, including a major interior refresh between 2005 and 2008, and a heavy refurbishment underway at the moment with the aim of keeping them in service past 2030. Additionally, the second tranche of power cars had their traction system upgraded to GTO thyristor whilst before being built, and about fifteen years ago they went back and fitted IGBT control systems to a bunch of the first tranche cars.

This is a good segue back to the original topic, conveniently I don't think that it's unreasonable to say that the IC225s could be stretched out at least another five years if they've given a bit of extra TLC, but it does raise the question of what happens at the end of that time. Unless more Azumas identical to the current ones are ordered, LNER are going to end up with a small supplementary fleet either way.

Whatever TOC's do, they always seem to end up with a small supplementary fleet. TPE have a few in the shape of class 802, 397 in comparison to the number of class 185 units they have in fleet. Southern has class a sma;;er number of class 171 units in comparison to the number of class 377 units. GWR with class 158 and class 150 in comparison to the number of class 165/166 units they have in their fleet.

It is very rare that you have a TOC with one fleet of the same trains. The only one that I can think of is Thameslink. I was going to say Great Northern as well, but then realised that they have both class 387 and 717 trains in their fleet.

 

[43096]

In fairness to IC225s - the ICE 1 fleet has received a lot more love over the years, including a major interior refresh between 2005 and 2008, and a heavy refurbishment underway at the moment with the aim of keeping them in service past 2030. Additionally, the second tranche of power cars had their traction system upgraded to GTO thyristor whilst before being built, and about fifteen years ago they went back and fitted IGBT control systems to a bunch of the first tranche cars.

All the first 20 sets got either spare GTO kit or IGBTs. The second batch are now getting IGBTs as well.

I assume the original converters for the first 20 sets were similar to those used in DB’s Class 120 fleet?

 

[XAM2175]

If the second tranche had GTOs from new and they all have\are being upgraded to IGBT what traction system did the first tranche of power cars have from new? I assume they didn't have DC traction motors.

I assume the original converters for the first 20 sets were similar to those used in DB’s Class 120 fleet?

The all have asynchronous three-phase AC motors. The original system used conventional thyristor-controlled converters, and indeed was derived directly from the Class 120 design (and the DE2500 prototype before that).

All the first 20 sets got either spare GTO kit or IGBTs. The second batch are now getting IGBTs as well.

Thanks for that. I knew that they were originally planning to support the GTO installations using spare parts recovered during the ICE 2 GTO to IGBT conversion, but I'd missed that they'd subsequently gone ahead with the full ICE 1 conversion anyway only last year.

 

[tomuk]

The all have asynchronous three-phase AC motors. The original system used conventional thyristor-controlled converters, and indeed was derived directly from the Class 120 design (and the DE2500 prototype before that).

Does anybody have a link to the detail of the traction systems on originally ICE1 or Class120? In the UK at least we didn't use AC motors until GTOs were available as used on the 465/466 Networkers. Did the Germans have an advantage due to 15kv 16.7Hz power supply.

 

[HSTEd]

Don’t be ridiculous Even 11x 26m coaches would be off of every platform on the line.

I think they will fit one platform at Leeds and one at York, but I can't remember for sure! I spent a lot of time sifting through the sectional appendix for HS2 related speculation. Remember 312m Eurostars did operate on the ECML for several years.

So technically you are not quite correct.

I will get my coat

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

Except at Kings Cross and most other stations, where platforming c312m long trains falls into the category of ‘ambitious’.

I take it traffic densities are way up from when GNER did it with the "White Rose" sets?