LNER 225 Shortening/Overnight Testing

[swt_passenger]

Apologies if this has been said before - does this mean that all the sets are being shortened, including those on the Leeds services ?

Also, would this still be required if the Mk4's were just staying on the Leeds runs as at present ?

AIUI from the earlier discussions, (across all the various threads), the Dec TT rewrite is built on the basis that all LNER services will have 80x performance, therefore pending the CAF sets being introduced only short 225/Mk4 sets are going to be used.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Apologies if this has been said before - does this mean that all the sets are being shortened, including those on the Leeds services ?

Also, would this still be required if the Mk4's were just staying on the Leeds runs as at present ?

Pretty sure this will be happening with all Mk4 sets?
I do wonder if all the Mk4 sets would be shortened if no TT change was happening - maybe a need for spares is also an issue?

 

[yorksrob]

Great. There goes my double seat then !

Have they tried just taking one carriage out and seeing how it goes ? The loss of capacity will be a nuisance.

 

[swr444]

Looks like this has been confirmed

https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1925535021038780563

 

[D365]

Have they tried just taking one carriage out and seeing how it goes ? The loss of capacity will be a nuisance.

The performance modelling says that’s a no-go.

 

[yorksrob]

The performance modelling says that’s a no-go.

Why rely on a model when you can test it for real !

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why rely on a model when you can test it for real !

Why spend hundreds or thousands when the computer has already said to won't work?

 

[yorksrob]

Why spend hundreds or thousands when the computer has already said to won't work?

I'm reminded of the time that NASA designed a space probe to detect signs of life on other planets. They had all the equipment to look for straight lines etc, however it was only when they sent it up into space and pointed it at the earth that the discovered that it couldn't detect life here, let alone on other planets.

They're spending all that money testing anyway - the benefits of not having to drop a standard carriage could be huge for passengers.

 

[The Planner]

Why rely on a model when you can test it for real !

You will always model it first. Any new traction or alterations has it done. The same applied to XC HSTs running in Voyager paths.

 

[yorksrob]

You will always model it first. Any new traction or alterations has it done. The same applied to XC HSTs running in Voyager paths.

By all means model it.

But real world testing beats "computer says no....."

 

[The Planner]

By all means model it.

But real world testing beats "computer says no....."

Yes, and that is also done, but models are rarely far out. You are talking seconds, not minutes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why rely on a model when you can test it for real !

I believe from earlier posts it was first tested for real in 2020. They must have already known reduction to 7 carriages was needed. I’m quite surprised it needs so much ‘testing’, although some will be PTI checking, which is not really related to performance at speed.

 

[Gordonman]

I believe from earlier posts it was first tested for real in 2020. They must have already known reduction to 7 carriages was needed. I’m quite surprised it needs so much ‘testing’, although some will be PTI checking, which is not really related to performance at speed.

Yes,much of the testing was for the PTI mainly for disabled access.

Don't forget that the shortened set was also tested on the Leeds North West triangle last week so that would hardly be related to speed trials.All related to PTI checks.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe from earlier posts it was first tested for real in 2020. They must have already known reduction to 7 carriages was needed. I’m quite surprised it needs so much ‘testing’, although some will be PTI checking, which is not really related to performance at speed.

Yes, and that is also done, but models are rarely far out. You are talking seconds, not minutes.

It would be interesting if they did test acceleration/deceleration performance at 8 carriages. Yes, it might not be enough sadly, but at least it would have been done.

I don't mind the posho's in first losing a carriage so much.

 

[The Planner]

It would be interesting if they did test acceleration/deceleration performance at 8 carriages. Yes, it might not be enough sadly, but at least it would have been done.

I don't mind the posho's in first losing a carriage so much.

If the modelling is robust enough to suggest they can't match the times required, they aren't going to do it.

 

[yorksrob]

If the modelling is robust enough to suggest they can't match the times required, they aren't going to do it.

Put it another way, a real time trial can test the accuracy of the modelling.

Personally speaking, if they run an 8 carriage 225 up and down the ECML with a carriage full of instruments, I'll concede that they've exhausted all possibilities.

 

[The Planner]

Put it another way, a real time trial can test the accuracy of the modelling.

Personally speaking, if they run an 8 carriage 225 up and down the ECML with a carriage full of instruments, I'll concede that they've exhausted all possibilities.

And the 7 car test will do that. Especially in comparison with existing data. Just because you don't like the methodology, it doesn't mean the people involved are wrong.

 

[yorksrob]

And the 7 car test will do that. Especially in comparison with existing data.

I have a lot of faith in railway engineers not being wrong. Less so in computer programmes/modelling etc.

Wouldn't you want to see them run it (as an 8 carriage) and at least see what happens in the real world ?

I think its unsatisfying to rely on a computer for such a thing.

 

[E27007]

I have a lot of faith in railway engineers not being wrong. Less so in computer programmes/modelling etc.

Wouldn't you want to see them run it (as an 8 carriage) and at least see what happens in the real world ?

I think its unsatisfying to rely on a computer for such a thing.

There is an NL set with a coach missing, it has been running for several weeks so a 91 +8 performance is known.
Latest rumour, Dec 14th will be the first day of the KX to Newcastle and return diagram.

 

[yorksrob]

There is an NL set with a coach missing, it has been running for several weeks so a 91 +8 performance is known.
Latest rumour, Dec 14th will be the first day of the KX to Newcastle and return diagram.

That sounds like a good test. How's it going ?

Also, another question, would they need this performance boost if they weren't going to Newcastle ?

 

[E27007]

That sounds like a good test. How's it going ?

Also, another question, would they need this performance boost if they weren't going to Newcastle ?

The advantage of Mark 4 over Azuma is the utilty of a DVT to carry high volumes of luggage and bicycles collected / dropped off at Durham, the travelling public being students attending Durham university

 

[yorksrob]

The advantage of Mark 4 over Azuma is the utilty of a DVT to carry high volumes of luggage and bicycles collected / dropped off at Durham, the traveller public being students attending Durham university

That's true - I've made use of the DVT years ago to store a bycicle.

But on the Leeds line, they add a good dose of capacity, and those missing carriages (particularly the standard one) will be missed.

 

[The Middle]

Latest rumour, Dec 14th will be the first day of the KX to Newcastle and return diagram.

I'd say it's a safe bet considering that's the first day of the new timetable which introduced the additional KGX to NCL services!

 

[The Planner]

I have a lot of faith in railway engineers not being wrong. Less so in computer programmes/modelling etc.

Wouldn't you want to see them run it (as an 8 carriage) and at least see what happens in the real world ?

I think its unsatisfying to rely on a computer for such a thing.

No, its not needed if the 7s are tested and there is significant data for 9.

 

[David Bullock]

That sounds like a good test. How's it going ?

Also, another question, would they need this performance boost if they weren't going to Newcastle ?

They would need the additional performance because London-Leeds services are being accelerated too (by about 5 minutes I think).

The whole situation is a bit of a compromise. They’re trying to squeeze an extra LDHS train per hour without all of the required infrastructure interventions. I suspect that the uniform acceleration profile becomes more important when you’re trying to fit more trains on the a railway which still has loads of bottlenecks.

It is a decision that disadvantages services to Yorkshire in favour of the services to the North East and Scotland. But the timetable as a whole does that anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

They would need the additional performance because London-Leeds services are being accelerated too (by about 5 minutes I think).

The whole situation is a bit of a compromise. They’re trying to squeeze an extra LDHS train per hour without all of the required infrastructure interventions. I suspect that the uniform acceleration profile becomes more important when you’re trying to fit more trains on the a railway which still has loads of bottlenecks.

It is a decision that disadvantages services to Yorkshire in favour of the services to the North East and Scotland. But the timetable as a whole does that anyway.

Yes, as a Leeds traveller I'd certainly take the extra carriage over a five minutes time saving, but I recognise that this is more about the other services trying to fit on the line.

I do think that if there was any possible compromise that could keep the full complement of standard class carriages, they should take it.

 

[800Travel]

They would need the additional performance because London-Leeds services are being accelerated too (by about 5 minutes I think).

The whole situation is a bit of a compromise. They’re trying to squeeze an extra LDHS train per hour without all of the required infrastructure interventions. I suspect that the uniform acceleration profile becomes more important when you’re trying to fit more trains on the a railway which still has loads of bottlenecks.

It is a decision that disadvantages services to Yorkshire in favour of the services to the North East and Scotland. But the timetable as a whole does that anyway.

Is LDHS long distance high speed?

 

[David Bullock]

Is LDHS long distance high speed?

Yes - apologies I should have said that

 

[Helvellyn]

Are the Class 91s still geared for 140mph operation? If so I wonder whether regearing for 125mph would make enough difference to allow 2+8 formations by improving the acceleration enough. (I presume it's acceleration to match the Azumas that's the key factor here given both types do 125mph in service)

 

[The Planner]

Are the Class 91s still geared for 140mph operation? If so I wonder whether regearing for 125mph would make enough difference to allow 2+8 formations by improving the acceleration enough. (I presume it's acceleration to match the Azumas that's the key factor here given both types do 125mph in service)

Expensive hammer to crack a nut.