Lines with significant counter peak flows

[3141]

I have always wondered what commuting would look like if housing were theoretically allocated to be 'optimal' to minimise the total national travel to work time/distance.

It's not that simple though - some of the jobs in Nottingham won't exist in Derby and vice versa e.g. Boots and Rolls Royce will have different specialist roles. Then people have other family members with ties to one place or the other.

Another consideration is what would happen when a person changes their job and could commute to the new one. Would you envisage that they should be forced to move home? Then what about their partner's job and their children's schools? Working from home is now adding a further dimension to the issues.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Before Covid, I once used the Jubilee line going Eastbound at Waterloo and I had to wait for 6 trains, and even then I could only just about squeeze on.

East bound at Waterloo is the peak flow - that big thing called Canary Wharf is the traffic generator.

 

[Ianno87]

Another consideration is what would happen when a person changes their job and could commute to the new one. Would you envisage that they should be forced to move home? Then what about their partner's job and their children's schools? Working from home is now adding a further dimension to the issues.

Don't worry, not at all a serious proposal, just what if at a particular point in time peoples' homes were arranged optimally for everybody worked - i.e. what the lowest possible level of commuting would equate to.

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't worry, not at all a serious proposal, just what if at a particular point in time peoples' homes were arranged optimally for everybody worked - i.e. what the lowest possible level of commuting would equate to.

In a similar vein, I always liked the suggestion that to avoid kids traipsing from one side of town to another for school, every child should go to the school that is closest to where they live, and the teachers would be allocated randomly every year.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

East bound at Waterloo is the peak flow - that big thing called Canary Wharf is the traffic generator.

I'm aware of that. I was just shocked by just how busy the Jubilee line was. I knew it was going to be busy, just took mee off guard it was that busy.

 

[matt_world2004]

Piccadilly line to heathrow Victoria line northbound from kings cross. Train journeys from Liverpool Street to Stratford.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Reading to Basingstoke. Both have their own commuters, and are reasonable routes to London depending on which bit you want to get to.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Piccadilly line to heathrow Victoria line northbound from kings cross. Train journeys from Liverpool Street to Stratford.

I second Piccadilly Line to Heathrow, quite a lot of people would also get off at Hounslow Central, Boston Manor and South Ealing - all being surprisingly large commuter destinations.

Hammersmith is also another one.

 

[bramling]

I'm aware of that. I was just shocked by just how busy the Jubilee line was. I knew it was going to be busy, just took mee off guard it was that busy.

Remember that part of the rationale for the JLE as was finally built was as a means of transporting people from the likes of Waterloo and London Bridge to Canary Wharf. When one then factors in that places like Canada Water, Canning Town and Stratford have exploded in usage for various reasons, more so than was originally planned for, and that explains it.

It seems Canada Water in particular wasn’t really ever envisaged to be such a major interchange, which is with the great benefit on hindsight a little strange considering the JLE and Overground only came a decade apart.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Remember that part of the rationale for the JLE as was finally built was as a means of transporting people from the likes of Waterloo and London Bridge to Canary Wharf. When one then factors in that places like Canada Water, Canning Town and Stratford have exploded in usage for various reasons, more so than was originally planned for, and that explains it.

It seems Canada Water in particular wasn’t really ever envisaged to be such a major interchange, which is with the great benefit on hindsight a little strange considering the JLE and Overground only came a decade apart.

I think I just underestimated just how busy the eastern branch of the Jubilee line is. Just didn't realise Canary Wharf was such a big employment centre, and places like North Greenwich and Canning Town have clearly become major centres as well. I always thought the Northern Line Bank Branch was busier, but when you look at the passenger statistics for the individual stations, the eastern branch of the Jubilee Line might be the second busiest on the tube network, after the victoria line, and maybe the central line. Pre covid obviously.

 

[bramling]

I think I just underestimated just how busy the eastern branch of the Jubilee line is. Just didn't realise Canary Wharf was such a big employment centre, and places like North Greenwich and Canning Town have clearly become major centres as well. I always thought the Northern Line Bank Branch was busier, but when you look at the passenger statistics for the individual stations, the eastern branch of the Jubilee Line might be the second busiest on the tube network, after the victoria line, and maybe the central line. Pre covid obviously.

The other thing to bear in mind is the JLE is one part of LU that was actually planned on the basis of linking places that people actually wanted to go between, or were considered that they would do so, as opposed to simply following streets or other established transport corridors.

Pretty much every JLE station is busy, as well as forming a major interchange. Then there’s the number of times it crosses the river as well, which was a deliberate feature of the design to really open up the whole area.

It was perhaps a little too successful!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The other thing to bear in mind is the JLE is one part of LU that was actually planned on the basis of linking places that people actually wanted to go between, or were considered that they would do so, as opposed to simply following streets or other established transport corridors.

Pretty much every JLE station is busy, as well as forming a major interchange. Then there’s the number of times it crosses the river as well, which was a deliberate feature of the design to really open up the whole area.

It was perhaps a little too successful!

Its definetley a huge success story, and like you said maybe too successful.

The only relatively quite JLE station seems to be Bermondsey and even then, that would be one of the busiest non-central London tube station on the Bakerloo Line.

 

[TEW]

From 1966 to 1973, I commuted to school down the New Guildford Line from Claygate to London Road Guildford, and the trains running 'against the tide' were surprisingly busy. The high-quality schools in Guildford (both maintained and independent) generated substantial early morning and late afternoon traffic which may well continue today. Back then, the rolling stock was a mix of trusty 4SUBs and 4EPBs, with slighty flashy 4VEPs in later years, invariably running in eight car formations. It was always exciting when industrial action or closures in the late 60s brought visits from 2BILs and 2HALs from the main line, bringing a flavour of the exotic to a mainly suburban route. Happy days!

I can confirm there is still significant school traffic in to London Road from all directions.

 

[jfisher21]

Waterloo - Reading counter peak stoppers were always full and standing pre covid. Many business parks on the line!

 

[Jamesrob637]

München to/and Nürnberg both ways to Ingolstadt and Regensburg for Audi and BMW

 

[Horizon22]

It seems Canada Water in particular wasn’t really ever envisaged to be such a major interchange, which is with the great benefit on hindsight a little strange considering the JLE and Overground only came a decade apart.

Very much an after thought but surprising considering how easily it opened up Canary Wharf / Staratford to vast swathes of South / South-East London. A station I tried to avoid at all costs as the interchange is so cramped.

As for the topic, many have already mentioned places like Reading, Slough and Guildford and a few additions to add within London are Lewisham and Orpington although the latter is less pronounced as so many "empty" services run out from London in the peak, but normally have the first and only stop as Orpington to go back to depots.

 

[Craig2601]

Glasgow Central LL through to Exhibition Centre and Partick are always pretty busy in the mornings too.

 

[adamedwards]

In normal times, Hatfield Herts due to the University and the business park which replaced the BAe factory.

 

[jfisher21]

Very much an after thought but surprising considering how easily it opened up Canary Wharf / Staratford to vast swathes of South / South-East London. A station I tried to avoid at all costs as the interchange is so cramped.

As for the topic, many have already mentioned places like Reading, Slough and Guildford and a few additions to add within London are Lewisham and Orpington although the latter is less pronounced as so many "empty" services run out from London in the peak, but normally have the first and only stop as Orpington to go back to depots.

As a resident of Forest Hill, I always thought Canada Water would be a strange place to change for Central London, but it actually is just as quick as going to London Bridge, less walking and cheaper too.

 

[PeterC]

Before Covid, I once used the Jubilee line going Eastbound at Waterloo and I had to wait for 6 trains, and even then I could only just about squeeze on.

For a short time I used the Jubilee from Baker St to Southwark. It was such a fight to get off without being over carried that I switched to the Bakerloo and walked from Waterloo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2020 ==

Don't worry, not at all a serious proposal, just what if at a particular point in time peoples' homes were arranged optimally for everybody worked - i.e. what the lowest possible level of commuting would equate to.

A friend bought a flat within walking distance of his office. A few weeks after completion the company announced a relocation.

 

[bramling]

As a resident of Forest Hill, I always thought Canada Water would be a strange place to change for Central London, but it actually is just as quick as going to London Bridge, less walking and cheaper too.

That sort of journey was almost certainly never envisaged with the JLE was planned.

 

[sjm77]

I was always surprised by how many people join the 08:12 from Manchester Oxford Road with half the train alighting at Birchwood.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I always found that the Great Western Main Line to be like this, Reading in particular being a significant traffic generator with people travelling toward against the flow. Also on a similar line whilst most lines lose customers as you’re travelling away from London, the intercity services in particular often pick up similar numbers at Reading heading westbound as they drop off.

It's a comparatively recent development. When I commuted from Paddington to Reading in 1998ish, there was hardly anyone else doing it; I'd often have carriage A on the 08:00 to myself. Now it's a very different story.

(The next leg of the journey, Reading-Wokingham, was busy in both directions.)

 

[peters]

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham.

Plenty of school pupils travelling on the Chester bound trains in the morning and in the opposite direction in the afternoon. Additionally, there's a large number of Barclays workers, living in Greater Manchester and working in Cheshire.

 

[route101]

Cant think of many in Scotland, Glasgow and Edinburgh would for sure.

Not even East Kilbride has a counter peak flow in great numbers.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I was always surprised by how many people join the 08:12 from Manchester Oxford Road with half the train alighting at Birchwood.

Massive business park at Birchwood - Air miles (Avios now) among others is based there. I guess most can/do WFH right now and you're referring to good ol' pre-COVID times.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Cant think of many in Scotland, Glasgow and Edinburgh would for sure.

Not even East Kilbride has a counter peak flow in great numbers.

Kilwinning - Ayr is one that’s relatively popular with students travelling to the college and university.

 

[Ianno87]

Not even East Kilbride has a counter peak flow in great numbers.

Hairmyres seems to have a reasonable flow to the hospital / college etc. nearby.

 

[bramling]

I was always surprised by how many people join the 08:12 from Manchester Oxford Road with half the train alighting at Birchwood.

Places with big business parks tend to be the ones which have the counter-peak flows. I’d imagine such flows are heavily concentrated on a very limited number of trains though.

I seem to remember Welwyn Garden City is one such example as well. Not sure about to Welwyn in the morning, however I can remember pre-ThamesLink the 1720 departure from Welwyn towards London used to fill up to the point where most seats on an 8-car would be taken. Barring schools traffic this would probably be the only London service from Welwyn which would fill to that extent.

Same on local roads, packed around 1730 due to business parks emptying out.

 

[peters]

Places with big business parks tend to be the ones which have the counter-peak flows. I’d imagine such flows are heavily concentrated on a very limited number of trains though.

Birchwood is on one of the routes between Manchester and Liverpool. I'm guessing the service referred to has a lot of people getting on it in central Manchester at just after 8am, with a lot of those getting off at Birchwood (on the outskirts of Warrington.) The line itself usually has lots of passengers travelling in both directions all day.