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Jacobite cancellations 2023

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12LDA28C

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I've no doubt that LSL can scratch a bit more together, but it would leave LSL the only one to operate, which is lovely for LSL but not so good for everyone else, and the point stands that subsequently the overall number and geographic scope of tours would diminish vastly. Enthusiasts especially ought to be careful what they wish for, as LSL don't seem to be overly bothered by that sector of the market; dry tours on their stock, their machines being too nice to go down lines where vegetation hasn't been pruned recently resulting in not all lines promised on tours being delivered, disdain towards solo passengers, minimal/non-existent or overly expensive standard class being just a small number of examples.

We are talking about one train on one specific route, I didn't suggest LSL would replace WCRC in its entirety? And I've been to Mallaig several times with LSL locomotives so I'm not sure what your point is there. LSL generally cater to the FC / Dining market which is entirely their prerogative so if you're not in their target audience then there's little point moaning about that. You'll be aware of course that LSL also own the Inter-City brand which as far as I'm aware has certainly promoted some very cheap Standard Class and bargain FC fares too.
 
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Iskra

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We are talking about one train on one specific route, I didn't suggest LSL would replace WCRC in its entirety? And I've been to Mallaig several times with LSL locomotives so I'm not sure what your point is there. LSL generally cater to the FC / Dining market which is entirely their prerogative so if you're not in their target audience then there's little point moaning about that. You'll be aware of course that LSL also own the Inter-City brand which as far as I'm aware has certainly promoted some very cheap Standard Class and bargain FC fares too.
It might be one train now, but the repercussions are going to be felt elsewhere if people use it as a WCRC-bashing exercise and I think people ought to think carefully before 'piling-in' in against WCRC (which the post I originally quoted was doing).

I'm aware of the LSL operation. I don't just sit in one target audience. Yes, I've travelled on Saphos, Rail Charter Services and Intercity. I do however, call a spade a spade and hopefully in a reasonable and balanced fashion- I've already praised their operation for their impressive branding upthread; their locomotives and carriages are immaculately turned out, they run a good variety of tours, but they aren't perfect either and many on here (an enthusiasts forum) won't find their railtour needs served if it's all we end up left with.
 

paul1609

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Thanks. What type of system is it? The electromagnetic door-bottom one Chiltern used?
The LSL coaches are all air braked and use the air powered bolts common in the mainline systems in fact I think a lot of the components are recovered from Mk2 and 3 coaches.
Its the VAC brake only (and steam heat) coaches that are the problem. As Ive posted several times on here now there's nothing technically difficult about designing and installing a system for these coaches but it is more involved than the air braked coaches and DMUs because there is no existing (off the shelf) system that has approval for use on the mainline. The cost of such a system may mean that its not financially viable to fit coaches that may only have a limited time left anyway.
I also dont know if the economics of the Jacobite are such that it will support the cost either.
I have no connection with WCRC all my knowledge comes from working on the electrical systems and their auxiliaries of coaches in the heritage sector.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's not really just the cost of having a diesel on the train that's the issue, it's the logistics of having it on the train. It would look incongruous tucked inside the steam loco and rather detract from the aesthetics of the steam train Jacobite / Hogwarts Express (for the kids) experience. It would be less obtrusive on the rear but that means running it round at the end of each individual journey.

I'm sure they could get hold of a Mk1 BG and shove a genny inside. They could even write Parcels on the side to add to the olde worlde feel.

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The danger with this heritage sector infighting is that WCRC decide to call it a day on the Jacobite. The one remaining set of compliant Mk1's isn't going to do very well spread across the entire country. It's the enthusiasts and customers that stand to lose out most here if we aren't careful.

If there's a market for it somebody will do it.
 

paul1609

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I'm sure they could get hold of a Mk1 BG and shove a genny inside. They could even write Parcels on the side to add to the olde worlde feel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



If there's a market for it somebody will do it.
As stated you could get a generator but the vacuum braked/ steam heat coaches only have a low voltage circuit for controlling the lights that runs the length of the train. Even the lights themselves are only powered off the individual coaches batteries. So you'd be looking at wiring the whole train with a relatively high powered bus line along with all the connectors etc. This and the approval for it is not as easy as it might seem.
Coaches that have Electric train heat obviously already have that connection/ It would almost certainly be cheaper to obtain later MK1/2 coaches that are ETH/ airbraked than retrofit the existing vac/ steam heat stock but obviously that doesn't happen overnight especially if they need to be cdl fitted already.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Out of interest, what is the status (CDL-wise) of the SRPS charter set at Bo’ness and does it see much use on the main line any more? Must admit they would appear to be well placed to take over a Jacobite operation if WCRC decided to pack it in, if the society is still involved with main line operations.
 

sprinterguy

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What happened to the generators that were used on the Sleepers when they were hauled by non-heat 37s?
All gainfully employed in the railtour sector: One with Locomotive Services, one with WCRC, and one with Belmond British Pullman.
The Jacobite runs two round trips per day, not one. One AM and one PM.
Using two different carriage rakes each working one round trip per day though, as Bill57p9 insinuates. The two pass each other at Arisaig during the afternoon.
 
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Bill57p9

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Out of interest, what is the status (CDL-wise) of the SRPS charter set at Bo’ness and does it see much use on the main line any more? Must admit they would appear to be well placed to take over a Jacobite operation if WCRC decided to pack it in, if the society is still involved with main line operations.
The SRPS railtour rake is currently “undergoing major overhaul” (source: https://www.srps.org.uk/railtours/programme.htm), which certainly sounds as though it is expected to continue main line for a few more years. Unsure what is in scope, though retention tanks were fitted last year. The stock is dual brake, dual heat and certainly has operates on the main line with just a steam loco. They have had LED lighting to reduce power draw for several years.

I can only recall the SRPS rake being operated by WCRC on the mainline (happy to be corrected) so presumably would be within scope of the WCRC CDL derogation.
 

mike57

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Does anyone know how much power an electically operated door locking mechanism uses? I assume it would use either uses a solenoid or motor driven screw system, either way even with indicators etc I doubt it would be much in excess of 100W or so per door. Probably beyond the capability of carriage lighting batteries but not going to require more than say 5kVA for the whole train, double that for contingency/reliability, 10kVA.

There are plenty of small acoustically shielded generators available at that capacity, size wise including casing maybe 1.2m x .8m x .8m, our local 'burger van' uses one, its towable by a small car, at a guess maybe 300kg +-. That could be fitted in the guards compartment of a normal carriage. Skid mounted to allow easy swap out, with connectors for the power cable. The only non standard bit would probably be the exhaust. Its not like the requirement is for 100kVA+ as would be required for full ETH.

Engineering wise I would go for a small motor driven screw system, it only uses power when actually operating (i.e. locking or unlocking), I have recently designed one much larger to secure a shielding door which weighs in excess 10t and that used a 192W motor, the lock/unlock time is in the order of 6 secs, and once locked is passively safe. Emergency locking/unlocking is provided by means of a removable hand crank key similar to a gigantic clockwork key. The majority of the components were 'off the shelf', including the electrical controls, with just some machining for the bolt mechanism. The level of safety required for this is probably similar to that required for a railway application.

Because they only draw power when operating apart from control and indicator circuits, I would estimate lets say 100 operations during a 12 hour period, thats 600 secs, at say 100W, thats only 16Wh plus say 6W for indication and control continuous draw, another 72Wh, say 100Wh total, double that for contingency, 200Wh, that would be a 10Ah 24v battery per door, which could probably locally mounted and removed for charging, 3 sets of batteries, 1 on the train, one on charge, and one back up, rotated around. Use off the shelf batteries, there are plenty available, maybe even a power tool battery, which are available in these sort of capacities.

My point, there are solutions to the problem but I sense an 'we have always done it this way' attitude and a overly complex system for getting things approved. We have to work within a strict regulatory system, obviously not the rail one, but there are accepted techniques for validating safety and as long as these are followed acceptance is fairly straightforwards.
 

DarloRich

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The danger with this heritage sector infighting is that WCRC decide to call it a day on the Jacobite. The one remaining set of compliant Mk1's isn't going to do very well spread across the entire country. It's the enthusiasts and customers that stand to lose out most here if we aren't careful.
One of the other operators will take it on - it might mean using mkii or mkiii coaches though. That wont be a problem for most tourists but it will be for people here.

I am also sure the Scottish government wont want to see a very tourist friendly service stopped.
 

Iskra

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One of the other operators will take it on - it might mean using mkii or mkiii coaches though. That wont be a problem for most tourists but it will be for people here.

I am also sure the Scottish government wont want to see a very tourist friendly service stopped.
Are mk3’s cleared for the line to Mallaig? I can imagine it’s got a few tight curves on it.
 

DarloRich

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Are mk3’s cleared for the line to Mallaig? I can imagine it’s got a few tight curves on it.
no idea - simply pointing out that the service could be offered using different coaches - they would have to be painted to match the Potter films mind!
 

paul1609

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Does anyone know how much power an electically operated door locking mechanism uses? I assume it would use either uses a solenoid or motor driven screw system, either way even with indicators etc I doubt it would be much in excess of 100W or so per door. Probably beyond the capability of carriage lighting batteries but not going to require more than say 5kVA for the whole train, double that for contingency/reliability, 10kVA.

There are plenty of small acoustically shielded generators available at that capacity, size wise including casing maybe 1.2m x .8m x .8m, our local 'burger van' uses one, its towable by a small car, at a guess maybe 300kg +-. That could be fitted in the guards compartment of a normal carriage. Skid mounted to allow easy swap out, with connectors for the power cable. The only non standard bit would probably be the exhaust. Its not like the requirement is for 100kVA+ as would be required for full ETH.

Engineering wise I would go for a small motor driven screw system, it only uses power when actually operating (i.e. locking or unlocking), I have recently designed one much larger to secure a shielding door which weighs in excess 10t and that used a 192W motor, the lock/unlock time is in the order of 6 secs, and once locked is passively safe. Emergency locking/unlocking is provided by means of a removable hand crank key similar to a gigantic clockwork key. The majority of the components were 'off the shelf', including the electrical controls, with just some machining for the bolt mechanism. The level of safety required for this is probably similar to that required for a railway application.

Because they only draw power when operating apart from control and indicator circuits, I would estimate lets say 100 operations during a 12 hour period, thats 600 secs, at say 100W, thats only 16Wh plus say 6W for indication and control continuous draw, another 72Wh, say 100Wh total, double that for contingency, 200Wh, that would be a 10Ah 24v battery per door, which could probably locally mounted and removed for charging, 3 sets of batteries, 1 on the train, one on charge, and one back up, rotated around. Use off the shelf batteries, there are plenty available, maybe even a power tool battery, which are available in these sort of capacities.

My point, there are solutions to the problem but I sense an 'we have always done it this way' attitude and a overly complex system for getting things approved. We have to work within a strict regulatory system, obviously not the rail one, but there are accepted techniques for validating safety and as long as these are followed acceptance is fairly straightforwards.
I believe cdl on the mainline has to fail unlocked in the event of power or air loss. Would you want to be operating a hand crank in a smoke filled carriage on fire?
 

Bletchleyite

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no idea - simply pointing out that the service could be offered using different coaches - they would have to be painted to match the Potter films mind!

As I've mentioned Mk2s can have opening hopper windows fitted, as the Virgin West Coast ones did. Do that, paint them maroon and add some trim (rounded door windows look good for example) and the tourists will be perfectly happy.

Or are there any air brake Mk1s spare around the place e.g. at preserved railways who may swap?

Can the locos do air brakes? If not, I guess you'd also need to swap those?
 

DarloRich

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the tourists will be perfectly happy.
I an not convinced the vast majority of tourists care about "hearing a loco working hard". They want to say: We went on the Harry Potter steam train and I suspect they have an image of the Harry Potter train that they expect to travel on. Meeting that expectation is going to be the hard without the carriages used in the film!
 

12C

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I an not convinced the vast majority of tourists care about "hearing a loco working hard". They want to say: We went on the Harry Potter steam train and I suspect they have an image of the Harry Potter train that they expect to travel on. Meeting that expectation is going to be the hard without the carriages used in the film!
I agree, to the public Mk1s are now recognisable as ‘The Harry Potter train’, to the extent Universal Studios in Florida have gone to the effort of making fairly good replicas of them for their ride. I don’t think air cons would be the same. Like it or loathe it Harry Potter has been a massive boost for the Jacobite, and many travel on it for that reason only.
 

DJ_K666

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I did look into this a few years ago and there is a solution that might work.

On a mk1 and 2 coach the doors are opened by a twist handle that's shaped rather like a Magnum lolly stick, and when the door is closed it sits horizontal. On loco hauled stock this handle has to be twisted by more than 90° to the left (on mk2b onwards some go right but that's not important) and while the door is open it sits at an angle, (on Southern Region EMU vehicles it springs back to horizontal)
While it's doing this there is a small bolt which pops out in the door lock. It returns the handle to horizontal when it comes into contact with the catch.
Now I don't know if that square bolt could be replaced with a small solenoid which shoots across when the train starts to move, London taxi style. Maybe that would be a solution. It would avoid the need for a steward in each vestibule and the released light could come on when the train stops . I'm aware of the space thecwindow takes up so maybe the lock being modified might not be a goer, however it's definitely worth a brainstorm.
You don't necessarily need big orange lights outside either, maybe just a small bulb inside or something like that. Once the train stops it unlocks. Looking at the construction of the door maybe it could go into the frame and throw the bolt from there. Hastings Diesels took this approach with theirs and even though the metal on the doors looked a bit weird it was done in a similar style to how BR did it.

Here's a good picture of door open on a GWSR blog showing door construction including a gallery.
 

GM078

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In Northern Ireland the RPSI power their mk2 set CDL via a generator fitted to a mk2 brake, so it minimises the impact on seat loss (they used to run it with a full generator van). It can't be beyond the bounds of possibility to do similar in GB?
 

Bletchleyite

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In Northern Ireland the RPSI power their mk2 set CDL via a generator fitted to a mk2 brake, so it minimises the impact on seat loss (they used to run it with a full generator van). It can't be beyond the bounds of possibility to do similar in GB?

One would think it possible to use a reasonably sized lithium ion battery pack, to be honest. It's not like it'd use that much power; the Mk1 system Chiltern fitted to the bubble cars is just electromagnets. A genny might be cheaper but you'd need to fuel it and maintain it, batteries would just need a nightly charge.
 

HSTEd

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I take it there is no possibility of fitting an alternator to the steam locomotive, not enough power for that?
 

Davester50

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I agree, to the public Mk1s are now recognisable as ‘The Harry Potter train’, to the extent Universal Studios in Florida have gone to the effort of making fairly good replicas of them for their ride. I don’t think air cons would be the same. Like it or loathe it Harry Potter has been a massive boost for the Jacobite, and many travel on it for that reason only.

The Harry Potter loco* is painted maroon, The Jacobite loco is black.
They couldn't care for the mark of cars.



*and all the museum replicas of it.


Actually, looking at photos from a Google search of "the jacobite train" brings up people saying they've been on the Jacobite/Hogwarts/Harry Potter train and they're standing by a Mark 2!
 
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Killingworth

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I agree, to the public Mk1s are now recognisable as ‘The Harry Potter train’, to the extent Universal Studios in Florida have gone to the effort of making fairly good replicas of them for their ride. I don’t think air cons would be the same. Like it or loathe it Harry Potter has been a massive boost for the Jacobite, and many travel on it for that reason only.

If you go to the National Trust for Scotland visitor centre at Glenfinnan you'll find masses coming to view a steam train cross the viaduct, Bonny Prince Charlie and history was it's original focus but those Jacobite views are what attract the majority Harry Potter is possibly half, but certainly not all, of that attraction. In my experience most who seem to go there are more mature
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Todays morning run has just been cancelled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


According to TRUST it (2Y61) has run as far as Glenfinnan, arrived right time 1056, but doesn’t appear to have departed so not sure what’s going on there?
 

cambran

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According to TRUST it (2Y61) has run as far as Glenfinnan, arrived right time 1056, but doesn’t appear to have departed so not sure what’s going on there?
It has just arrived at Mallaig with 45407, so must be a problem with TRUST

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There were 12 WCR staff in hi vis on board
 
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