Jacobite cancellations 2023

[Iskra]

So services are due to start tomorrow but have only just started to recruit for door stewards? How will that work?

It’s probably a case that they have enough support staff that they can use temporarily until they have recruited enough stewards.

 

[trebor79]

perhaps they have enough for one round trip but not two
perhaps permission has been given to run SUBJECT TO a recruitment campaign to secure more stewards

The former I guess.
I can't see a regulator singing off on "OK we'll let you run in a manner which we think isn't compliant for the time being", imagine the hoo ha if it all went wrong.

 

[mike57]

I thought that too. It’s a fairly attractive job though. I think the way to overcome it decisively might be to provide accommodation.

For a week maybe, not sure how attractive it would be after 2 months... In earlier times 'camping coaches' come to mind, but I doubt that is an option today, even if any old rolling stock could be found. Failing that even basic accomodation is going to come at a price.

 

[12C]

It’s probably too late this year, but in future they might do well trying to attract uni students on their summer break for temporary jobs. I bet given the Harry Potter connection plus the opportunity to travel the Highlands over the summer, a fair few would jump at the chance to work on the ‘Hogwarts Express’. As mentioned though accommodation may need to be looked at, given the cost of accommodation in peak season. Any mk3 sleepers still lying around?

 

[Iskra]

For a week maybe, not sure how attractive it would be after 2 months... In earlier times 'camping coaches' come to mind, but I doubt that is an option today, even if any old rolling stock could be found. Failing that even basic accomodation is going to come at a price.

Appreciated, but if the service can’t run without them the customers will ultimately have to cough up for it. It’s an over-subscribed service in a place that’s very difficult to recruit in (my own company struggles to fill positions there and I seriously looked at transferring a couple of years back). The wealthy tourists from overseas will still find the money and those that can’t justify it can just use the Scotrail service instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==

It’s probably too late this year, but in future they might do well trying to attract uni students on their summer break for temporary jobs. I bet given the Harry Potter connection plus the opportunity to travel the Highlands over the summer, a fair few would jump at the chance to work on the ‘Hogwarts Express’. As mentioned though accommodation may need to be looked at, given the cost of accommodation in peak season. Any mk3 sleepers still lying around?

If they could offer accommodation, I’d take a sabbatical from work to do it for a season, but yes too late for this year.

 

[trebor79]

It’s probably too late this year, but in future they might do well trying to attract uni students on their summer break for temporary jobs. I bet given the Harry Potter connection plus the opportunity to travel the Highlands over the summer, a fair few would jump at the chance to work on the ‘Hogwarts Express’. As mentioned though accommodation may need to be looked at, given the cost of accommodation in peak season. Any mk3 sleepers still lying around?

That was my thought too. A couple of Mk3 coaches as accommodation and it would be a hoot for like-minded university students who would also be able to enjoy a spot of walking, fishing etc when not at work.
I think there are some SLEP in storage at Great Yarmouth Vauxhall sidings.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

It was reported in Steam Railway a couple of months ago that LSL are putting pressure on the ORR not to grant WCRC further exemptions following those which were due to expire in June. Perhaps this is also a factor?

I would hope that the ORR would ignore any such lobbying. Any hint of partiality and their moral authority is toast.
Pat

 

[WAB]

I would hope that the ORR would ignore any such lobbying. Any hint of partiality and their moral authority is toast.
Pat

Given they've already bent over backwards to accommodate West Coast, I don't think such a decision would be showing partiality....

 

[bleeder4]

I'm with LSL on this to be honest. Jeremy Hosking spent a lot of money getting his Mk1 stock compliant with regulations. In fact, he is the only rolling stock owner with a compliant rake of Mk1 coaches. He then had to put up ticket prices this year to try and recoup some of that cost. In return for doing all that, his reward is for one of his competitors to make absolutely no effort whatsoever to comply, and instead to be granted extensions after extension by the ORR. I can fully understand his frustration.

It's not as if WCR can't even afford the cost. David Smith is himself a multi-millionaire businessman.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm with LSL on this to be honest. Jeremy Hosking spent a lot of money getting his Mk1 stock compliant with regulations. In fact, he is the only rolling stock owner with a compliant rake of Mk1 coaches. He then had to put up ticket prices this year to try and recoup some of that cost. In return for doing all that, his reward is for one of his competitors to make absolutely no effort whatsoever to comply, and instead to be granted extensions after extension by the ORR. I can fully understand his frustration.

Does LSL have a rake of Mk1s with central door locking, then? If so, why can't the same system be fitted to the Jacobite? Are they electric heated so the power is available?

 

[bleeder4]

Does LSL have a rake of Mk1s with central door locking, then? If so, why can't the same system be fitted to the Jacobite? Are they electric heated so the power is available?

Yes it does. It's used on all of their Saphos trips (and most of the Steam Dreams one). I heard that it cost them about £35k per coach to fit it. The only reason why it can't be fitted to the Jacobite is because WCR don't want to open their wallet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it does. It's used on all of their Saphos trips (and most of the Steam Dreams one). I heard that it cost them about £35k per coach to fit it. The only reason why it can't be fitted to the Jacobite is because WCR don't want to open their wallet.

Thanks. What type of system is it? The electromagnetic door-bottom one Chiltern used?

 

[bleeder4]

Thanks. What type of system is it? The electromagnetic door-bottom one Chiltern used?

I've no idea. I'm just an LSL passenger, not an engineer. There is an LED screen above the inside of the door which, when unlit, denotes that the door is locked. When it lights up saying "Door Unlocked" it is then possible to open the door. On the outside of the door, just to the side, another light is affixed to the side of the coach. When this light is lit up amber it means the door is unlocked. When the guard is preparing to dispatch the train, one of his checks is to look down the length of the train and make sure all of those outside lights are unlit. On short platforms when certain coaches are off the platform, the doors in those coaches also get unlocked, so the system seems to be "all or nothing", rather than allowing just certain doors to unlock.

Why not book on a Saphos trip and then you can see for yourself?

 

[robert thomas]

Yes it does. It's used on all of their Saphos trips (and most of the Steam Dreams one). I heard that it cost them about £35k per coach to fit it. The only reason why it can't be fitted to the Jacobite is because WCR don't want to open their wallet.

Doesn't it also require a diesel on the rear to provide the power?

 

[John R]

The Evening Standard is reporting that the ORR has given permission for the service to recommence. They quote the statement, although I cannot find it on the ORR's website.

‘Hogwarts Express’ train services can resume, says safety body

The Jacobite, which runs from Fort William to Mallaig, has been suspended in the past because of concerns over its hinged carriage doors.

www.standard.co.uk

The ORR said in a statement: “Following an inspection of West Coast Railway Company Limited’s (WCRCL) proposed safety arrangements for the Jacobite service on August 8, ORR has granted it a new exemption certificate which will allow the Jacobite to recommence operation.

This exemption certificate is required for all train operators who want to use hinged door carriages without central door locking fitted.

WCRCL’s exemption certificate is granted for a timebound period from August 8 to November 30 to enable it to honour its bookings and reflects the interests of its employees whilst its claim for judicial review is determined.”

 

[12C]

I've no idea. I'm just an LSL passenger, not an engineer. There is an LED screen above the inside of the door which, when unlit, denotes that the door is locked. When it lights up saying "Door Unlocked" it is then possible to open the door. On the outside of the door, just to the side, another light is affixed to the side of the coach. When this light is lit up amber it means the door is unlocked. When the guard is preparing to dispatch the train, one of his checks is to look down the length of the train and make sure all of those outside lights are unlit. On short platforms when certain coaches are off the platform, the doors in those coaches also get unlocked, so the system seems to be "all or nothing", rather than allowing just certain doors to unlock.

Why not book on a Saphos trip and then you can see for yourself?

LSL can do this because their steam tours convey a diesel providing ETS (electric train supply), which powers the central locking. The Jacobite does not, it is purely steam hauled and has no electricity supply, apart from the carriage batteries which have limited power for lighting, but probably could not be relied upon for anything else.

 

[Stathern Jc]

I know that reluctance to "put hands into pockets" has been mentioned.
But in the medium term, if the carriages were suitably equipped with a similar system to those of LSL, would fitting out a generator van (and perhaps a spare) be a practical option? I imagine it would be cheaper than dedicating a diesel to running ETS for the whole of the summer season.

 

[12LDA28C]

I know that reluctance to "put hands into pockets" has been mentioned.
But in the medium term, if the carriages were suitably equipped with a similar system to those of LSL, would fitting out a generator van (and perhaps a spare) be a practical option? I imagine it would be cheaper than dedicating a diesel to running ETS for the whole of the summer season.

It's not really just the cost of having a diesel on the train that's the issue, it's the logistics of having it on the train. It would look incongruous tucked inside the steam loco and rather detract from the aesthetics of the steam train Jacobite / Hogwarts Express (for the kids) experience. It would be less obtrusive on the rear but that means running it round at the end of each individual journey.

 

[Iskra]

It's not really just the cost of having a diesel on the train that's the issue, it's the logistics of having it on the train. It would look incongruous tucked inside the steam loco and rather detract from the aesthetics of the steam train Jacobite / Hogwarts Express (for the kids) experience. It would be less obtrusive on the rear but that means running it round at the end of each individual journey.

Would it mean one less coach of paying passengers too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==

I'm with LSL on this to be honest. Jeremy Hosking spent a lot of money getting his Mk1 stock compliant with regulations. In fact, he is the only rolling stock owner with a compliant rake of Mk1 coaches. He then had to put up ticket prices this year to try and recoup some of that cost. In return for doing all that, his reward is for one of his competitors to make absolutely no effort whatsoever to comply, and instead to be granted extensions after extension by the ORR. I can fully understand his frustration.

It's not as if WCR can't even afford the cost. David Smith is himself a multi-millionaire businessman.

The danger with this heritage sector infighting is that WCRC decide to call it a day on the Jacobite. The one remaining set of compliant Mk1's isn't going to do very well spread across the entire country. It's the enthusiasts and customers that stand to lose out most here if we aren't careful.

 

[12LDA28C]

Would it mean one less coach of paying passengers too?

Quite possibly, I'm not 100% au fait with the lengths of loops and other infrastructure on the WHL extension but one can well imagine if the train already runs in the longest formation possible for accommodation in passing loops then certainly the provision of a genny car would mean one less passenger coach.

 

[Bill57p9]

WCRC already have at least one generator van - or at least used to: been in a consist with it and two non-ETS 37s.
I would have thought that adding a small power supply (generator or battery*) to the brake coach might be a sensible power source.
Approvals required of course but one would hope pragmatism could be brought on an attempt to comply with the regulations.

* Each rake does 1 round trip per day, total duty 8 hours and it's not like air conditioning is required. It can't need that much power.

 

[12LDA28C]

Would it mean one less coach of paying passengers too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2023 ==


The danger with this heritage sector infighting is that WCRC decide to call it a day on the Jacobite. The one remaining set of compliant Mk1's isn't going to do very well spread across the entire country. It's the enthusiasts and customers that stand to lose out most here if we aren't careful.

And what's to stop LSL running their own version of the Jacobite if they see a market for doing so?

 

[Iskra]

And what's to stop LSL running their own version of the Jacobite if they see a market for doing so?

Nothing, but then what are all their other tours running with? The enthusiasts lose out that way too...

 

[Bill57p9]

And what's to stop LSL running their own version of the Jacobite if they see a market for doing so?

There's even a path available for the next few days.

 

[Davester50]

WCRC already have at least one generator van - or at least used to: been in a consist with it and two non-ETS 37s.
I would have thought that adding a small power supply (generator or battery*) to the brake coach might be a sensible power source.
Approvals required of course but one would hope pragmatism could be brought on an attempt to comply with the regulations.

* Each rake does 1 round trip per day, total duty 8 hours and it's not like air conditioning is required. It can't need that much power.

What happened to the generators that were used on the Sleepers when they were hauled by non-heat 37s?

 

[12LDA28C]

WCRC already have at least one generator van - or at least used to: been in a consist with it and two non-ETS 37s.
I would have thought that adding a small power supply (generator or battery*) to the brake coach might be a sensible power source.
Approvals required of course but one would hope pragmatism could be brought on an attempt to comply with the regulations.

* Each rake does 1 round trip per day, total duty 8 hours and it's not like air conditioning is required. It can't need that much power.

The Jacobite runs two round trips per day, not one. One AM and one PM.

 

[Iskra]

What happened to the generators that were used on the Sleepers when they were hauled by non-heat 37s?

The ETHEL's? Scrapped in 1994

 

[12LDA28C]

Nothing, but then what are all their other tours running with? The enthusiasts lose out that way too...

It's the Saphos set that uses the Mark 1s and often Steam Dreams (although not always - Mark 3s have been used with an air-braked steam loco). LSL have plenty of spare stock and if the numbers stacked up I'm sure they could knock together a second rake of Mark 1s if they wanted to.

 

[Davester50]

The ETHEL's? Scrapped in 1994

Not the ex-locos, the vans that were fitted

 

[Iskra]

It's the Saphos set that uses the Mark 1s and often Steam Dreams (although not always - Mark 3s have been used with an air-braked steam loco). LSL have plenty of spare stock and if the numbers stacked up I'm sure they could knock together a second rake of Mark 1s if they wanted to.

I've no doubt that LSL can scratch a bit more together, but it would leave LSL the only one to operate, which is lovely for LSL but not so good for everyone else, and the point stands that subsequently the overall number and geographic scope of tours would diminish vastly. Enthusiasts especially ought to be careful what they wish for, as LSL don't seem to be overly bothered by that sector of the market; dry tours on their stock, their machines being too nice to go down lines where vegetation hasn't been pruned recently resulting in not all lines promised on tours being delivered, disdain towards solo passengers, minimal/non-existent or overly expensive standard class being just a small number of examples.