Jacobite cancellations 2023

[12C]

It would presumably be allowed with a proper emergency release. Not a key in a box, as what if it were lost in the panic due to a fire?

Fair point, a release handle behind glass on the inside would be better. If my memory serves me correct, the Mk2 half brakes had something similar on the middle emergency doors.

 

[trebor79]

The issue is not that it is technically impossible to do, the issue is that there is no system available that has approval for use on the national network. Most of the systems that were previously used by TOCs used either a 100 volt solenoid or a compressed air locking bolt. much of the equipment was either scrapped with the coach or recovered and has already been re-used.
It has been known in heritage railway circles for a long time that the 24 volts electrical system used in Mk1 stock with Vacuum Braked/ Steam heat is extremely marginal especially when used at low speed the dynamos generally don't charge the batteries until the vehicle speed reaches 25 to 28 mph.

I've often wondered why heritage lines couldn't just fit differently sized pulleys so that the dynamos work at lower vehicle speeds?

 

[paul1609]

I've often wondered why heritage lines couldn't just fit differently sized pulleys so that the dynamos work at lower vehicle speeds?

This is actually used by some heritage railways there is also a regulator with more modern electrics that over fields the generator to increase the output at low speeds but I think that the success on heritage railways with either or both modifications was very limited basically because of the speed profile. I believe most railways now charge the stock when stationary and have reduced the demand by the fitting of leds etc. I don't think these modifications would support a CDL system anyway.
Once you got to Dual Heat Mark1s and MK2 the electrical system was much more robust and it would be much easier to modify to take an electrically operated system. MK2a onwards were air braked so you can fit that.

 

[trebor79]

Yes, I guess on the majority of heritage railways the coaches spend most of the day stationary anyway.

 

[TPO]

The issue is not that it is technically impossible to do, the issue is that there is no system available that has approval for use on the national network. Most of the systems that were previously used by TOCs used either a 100 volt solenoid or a compressed air locking bolt. much of the equipment was either scrapped with the coach or recovered and has already been re-used.
It has been known in heritage railway circles for a long time that the 24 volts electrical system used in Mk1 stock with Vacuum Braked/ Steam heat is extremely marginal especially when used at low speed the dynamos generally don't charge the batteries until the vehicle speed reaches 25 to 28 mph.
I don't pretend to have a knowledge of the economics of the jacobite operation but it may well be that the cost of approval and fitment of a CDL system plus the approval and upgrading of what was essentially a carriage lighting system to power a safety critical system means that the MK1 stock currently used on the Jacobite is no longer viable. The ORR kind of hints that this might well be the case in the suggestion that there is nothing to stop WC operating the Jacobite with alternative stock.

There's at least one set of M1 based Translators knocking about, which not only translate but also have a gennie to provide full hotel power including power operated doors. Although they are air braked vice vac braked, the concept is already accepted. Not that uncommon to have a generator car, some test trains also have gennie cars.

If the doors are fitted with CDL and window bars/droplight locks there's no more need for that than on a 158, because the door can't come open and you can't lean out.

For heritage lines I can see a case for auditably doing work so droplight hanging is very unlikely physically result in injury. With many preserved lines being single track on a wider formation this isn't hard to achieve.

For the mainline just make bars and CDL mandatory. If there's no 24V Mk1 suitable system now there's enough charter operators to fund developing one, or do the work to add generator vehicles or better batteries to power the Chiltern electromagnetic system properly.

All the info for gennie cars is established, just needs the right attitude.

To be honest, modern gen sets are so good, this shouldn't be an issue. Modern gen set and modern industrial cabling, very robust and not too costly. Nor is the "approval" an issue, in the fairly recent past I had some involvement with a test train equipped like this and it was highly effective and economical to achieve.

TPO

 

[paul1609]

There's at least one set of M1 based Translators knocking about, which not only translate but also have a gennie to provide full hotel power including power operated doors. Although they are air braked vice vac braked, the concept is already accepted. Not that uncommon to have a generator car, some test trains also have gennie cars.



All the info for gennie cars is established, just needs the right attitude.

To be honest, modern gen sets are so good, this shouldn't be an issue. Modern gen set and modern industrial cabling, very robust and not too costly. Nor is the "approval" an issue, in the fairly recent past I had some involvement with a test train equipped like this and it was highly effective and economical to achieve.

TPO

I think I made it clear in my post that its not a technical issue rather the amount of work required and the approval process. The problem is that the Vac braked/ Steam Heat coaches only have a low voltage control connection through the train. The power through connection only came about when ETH was added, so you are looking at a redesign of the coaches electrical system to be able to take the power from a Genny Set. The length of the Jacobite is also limited by the length of the loops so if you are putting a generator vehicle on the back you are probably taking a passenger carrying vehicle possibly destroying the trains financial viability.

 

[trebor79]

I think I made it clear in my post that its not a technical issue rather the amount of work required and the approval process. The problem is that the Vac braked/ Steam Heat coaches only have a low voltage control connection through the train. The power through connection only came about when ETH was added, so you are looking at a redesign of the coaches electrical system to be able to take the power from a Genny Set. The length of the Jacobite is also limited by the length of the loops so if you are putting a generator vehicle on the back you are probably taking a passenger carrying vehicle possibly destroying the trains financial viability.

Why couldn't they just put a few 5kWh lithium ion battery packs in the brake van area, with an inverter to convert that to whatever voltage is required? That's only a few thousand quid. Charge up overnight with shore power. Much less space than a generator set, no noise and fumes and no issues with fuelling.

 

[12C]

For a simple solution, could they not just put a hinged casing over the existing bolt, which can be opened by staff with a carriage key to lock/unlock the door. Thus preventing access by passengers. The case could have a glass/plastic window to smash to allow access to the bolt in an emergency, no different to emergency door release devices on modern stock.

Edit…a very primitive drawing of my design

 

[paul1609]

Why couldn't they just put a few 5kWh lithium ion battery packs in the brake van area, with an inverter to convert that to whatever voltage is required? That's only a few thousand quid. Charge up overnight with shore power. Much less space than a generator set, no noise and fumes and no issues with fuelling.

Indeed the Kitchen Car on our Wealden Pullman train on the K ESR has a 70 Kwh lithium battery system to provide 230 v power on board including powering a commercial dishwasher and is charged in just this way for the reasons you state. The technology is a straight lift from the luxury yacht industry, but we don't run the ac power down the train each coach has its own independent battery system.
Obviously a central door locking system by its very nature requires a distributed power system. I think the standard electrical solenoid for CDL was around 100 volts.
THers nothing technically stopping you fitting such a system to the vac coaches but as a safety critical system on the national network will require design and sign off by a vehicle acceptance Co. This would take time and the considerable cost may not be recoverable from the Jacobite operation. You also need to be able to provide the shore power at the location where the stock is stabled overnight. Our Pullman train above generally demands a 10 Kwh charge for 5 hours after a return trip to Bodiam in Summer before it begins to drop off. That's easily provided in Tenterden station but may be another considerable expense in Fort William yard.

 

[mike57]

Whilst I understand that finding a CDL solution might not be staightforwards isnt the simple 'now' solution to provide the correct level of stewards, who can ensure that the rules are followed.

 

[John R]

Whilst I understand that finding a CDL solution might not be staightforwards isnt the simple 'now' solution to provide the correct level of stewards, who can ensure that the rules are followed.

Absolutely. Although given the safety culture at West Coast, it may be difficult to persuade ORR, (given the breaches it discovered and the previous track record) that any solution that relies on the intervention of staff would be acceptable in lieu of a watertight automated protection system. Effectively it would be saying "We trust you" - not sure if I was the one signing that off that I would be comfortable doing it.

Also, what happens if one steward no shows? Is there an ability to completely isolate passengers from the part of the train devoid of a steward, or does the train have to be cancelled (or passengers in the affected coach told they can't travel).

 

[Killingworth]

The only date that's currently avaliable to book online this year is the afternoon of 6th September. That's probably escaped the lines drawn through every other date.

Despite its failings this has been a very successful operation for many years. Its supension will be having implications for small businesses in Mallaig gainng trade from passengers with little else to do other than buying snacks and souvenirs.

The National Trust for Scotland's Glenfinnan site is usually overrun with coach trippers and motor tourists eager to watch the trains crossing the viaduct. A lot of money has been spent in recent years to increase capacity Watching Scotrail's 156s hasnt the same appeal.. All along the line photographers are seeking vantage points for pictures.

Of course all heritage specials and heritage lines attract such interest and the operators gain little benefit from the interest they generate.

We've discussed at length how dangerous it is to have open windows on heritage stock. A couple of years ago I met a lady walking below the viaduct. She'd just met a couple of Network Rail men who'd recovered the camera shed' dropped from the train the previous day. As long as there are opening windows there's temptation but liniting the amount they open shouldn't be too difficult.

Old doors are clearly a problem although it's been very well known for decades. It seems we're now locked into a situation where the ORR feels it's regulatory authority is being ignored. It has agreed special concessions before and they have been given inadequate compliance. There have been no reported significant accidents but that's possibly by good luck Now they officially know the situation they have to take a hard line. If they didn't and there were a serious accident there'd be hell to pay.

WCR are in a very difficult postion at the height of their season. It's been brewing for years, even decades, so should have been planned for. It seems the current sets being used can't be quickly brought up to requirements Are there any others avaliable that do and could be substituted?

Currently this is a WCR problem but it has implications for all operators of heritage lines and their rolling stock.

 

[12LDA28C]

I believe Jacobite operation should resume later this week.

 

[mike57]

Absolutely. Although given the safety culture at West Coast, it may be difficult to persuade ORR, (given the breaches it discovered and the previous track record) that any solution that relies on the intervention of staff would be acceptable in lieu of a watertight automated protection system. Effectively it would be saying "We trust you" - not sure if I was the one signing that off that I would be comfortable doing it.

Yes working in a safety critical non rail related industry myself I can see the problem. In not sticking to the agreed requirements the bar will now be raised higher, and potentially this will affect other operaters whose safety culture is better, but are possibly going to face increased requirements because of WCRC failure to comply.

Also, what happens if one steward no shows? Is there an ability to completely isolate passengers from the part of the train devoid of a steward, or does the train have to be cancelled (or passengers in the affected coach told they can't travel).

Hopefully the company would realise they are in 'last chance saloon' and would (massively) over provide on stewards on the basis that barring major external events they will have enough, but maybe in the case of WCRC that is a bit of a stretch.

 

[357]

Hopefully the company would realise they are in 'last chance saloon'

I think that's basically where WCRC have been constantly for at least the last fifteen years!

 

[43096]

Whilst I understand that finding a CDL solution might not be staightforwards isnt the simple 'now' solution to provide the correct level of stewards, who can ensure that the rules are followed.

A big part of the issue is the behaviour (and at source, management) of the stewards. That is a cultural issue that is endemic within WCRC - see past transgressions on safety issues.

The message is clear: WCRC cannot be trusted and really need the book throwing at them.

 

[DarloRich]

some of the takes on this thread are interesting! WCRC have had several near escapes over the years and it looks like the ORR have had enough. Good for them. Run safely and within the rules or don't run.

BTW it doesn't matter what happens in Ulaanbaatar, Zanzibar, on the Krakatoa Central or what was good in 1963. it is 2023. The ORR set the rules. They expect them to be followed. If they aren't following those rules you will get a shoeing.

 

[357]

some of the takes on this thread are interesting! WCRC have had several near escapes over the years and it looks like the ORR have had enough. Good for them. Run safely and within the rules or don't run.

BTW it doesn't matter what happens in Ulaanbaatar, Zanzibar, on the Krakatoa Central or what was good in 1963. it is 2023. The ORR set the rules. They expect them to be followed. If they aren't following those rules you will get a shoeing.

Every time we meet outside of the formula one thread we are in total agreement

Many people in this thread (but not all) don't appreciate that WCRC acting like this will have a negative impact on all heritage and slam door operations, possibly eventually even having a negative impact on heritage lines.

 

[DarloRich]

Many people in this thread (but not all) don't appreciate that WCRC acting like this will have a negative impact on all heritage and slam door operations, possibly eventually even having a negative impact on heritage lines.

Absolutely!

 

[mike57]

WCRC have been found wanting several times over safety issues, apart from a complete ban what other options are available? It appears that previous breaches and the resulting action have not changed enough at the company, so you get to the point where it feels like a revolving door. As someone whose involvement in the rail industry is as a passenger it raises some questions about the whole WCRC operation, even if I dont travel on WCRC services I am sharing track with them, where do the failings end... As others have mentioned I also fear for other more responsible heritage operations, who at the very will least will probably face increased costs as a result.

 

[Killingworth]

Latest is no services before 3rd August. After that date seems uncertain.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Latest is no services before 3rd August. After that date seems uncertain.

The Scottish school holidays finish Monday 14th August so WCRC really have ballsed up on this one, although not many people I think have sympathy, agree with the rules of not, these are the rules the railway operate within.

 

[Titfield]

WCRC have been found wanting several times over safety issues, apart from a complete ban what other options are available? It appears that previous breaches and the resulting action have not changed enough at the company, so you get to the point where it feels like a revolving door. As someone whose involvement in the rail industry is as a passenger it raises some questions about the whole WCRC operation, even if I dont travel on WCRC services I am sharing track with them, where do the failings end... As others have mentioned I also fear for other more responsible heritage operations, who at the very will least will probably face increased costs as a result.

Agreed. What amazes me beyond belief is the failure to acknowledge that a derogation (or equivalent) could be seen to be very generous in that it allows the up to date safety standard to be disregarded or at least watered down in its application. Having been given this derogation one would think that any right minded organisation would absolutely comply with any undertaking or method of working they were required to work to.

I do not know how many insurers provide Public Liability Cover for heritage railways. I suspect it is a very small market. Should one of those insurers have to make a very large payout then one could forsee either cover not being available at policy renewal time (and heritage railways have to cease operation) or the premiums becoming so large that they are unaffordable (or make operating unviable) and thus the heritage railway has to cease operation.

Judging by the posts made by many enthusiasts on various forums relating to the occurrence of accident or injury there seems to be a complete failing of an appreciation of a) insurers have a very powerful position b) the growth of "ambulance chasing lawyers" influences claims.

I have sometimes heard it said by volunteers on HRs - when challenged for working outside the Safety Management System - "it doesnt matter if I hurt or injure myself". The issue is of course it could well be their nearest and dearest who bring the claim. I applaud the newer, usually younger, volunteers on Heritage Railways because apart from enthusiasm they also bring an appreciation that Health and Safety and the following of Safety Management Systems protects them, their co workers, passengers and anyone who comes into contact with the railway.

 

[John R]

At least the latest message on its website no longer states that the circumstances are outside its control.

I’m wondering could this take the company down. They must rely heavily on this income, and even if services resume on Aug 3rd that’s three weeks of the 2 trains per day service lost.

 

[geoffk]

WCRC is due to operate the "Royal Duchy", Slough to Par and return, on Sunday next. The various websites are still showing this as operating.

 

[12LDA28C]

WCRC is due to operate the "Royal Duchy", Slough to Par and return, on Sunday next. The various websites are still showing this as operating.

It's only the Jacobite affected. WCRC has operated the 'Dorset Coast Express' on behalf of RTC today.

 

[alastair]

I’m wondering could this take the company down. They must rely heavily on this income, and even if services resume on Aug 3rd that’s three weeks of the 2 trains per day service lost.

I know little of WCRC's finances but would have thought that was unlikely. Their filed accounts indicate they run a profitable operation and I believe the owner is well-heeled? They also have the Northern Belle, large numbers of charters for RTC and Pathfinder plus contracted NR work.

 

[John R]

I know little of WCRC's finances but would have thought that was unlikely. Their filed accounts indicate they run a profitable operation and I believe the owner is well-heeled? They also have the Northern Belle, large numbers of charters for RTC and Pathfinder plus contracted NR work.

Thanks. In which case their reluctance to bite the bullet and run a proper ship with regard to safety is even more puzzling.

 

[mike57]

I believe the owner is well-heeled?

In which case their reluctance to bite the bullet and run a proper ship with regard to safety is even more puzzling.

This really points to a problem at the top, where they think that they are above the law. Not the sort of culture you want in any business.

 

[Deepgreen]

This really points to a problem at the top, where they think that they are above the law. Not the sort of culture you want in any business.

Quite. The railway can have no place for those who aren't detail-conscious, especially regarding safety requirements. WCRC has let the whole steam/heritage movement down badly.