Jacobite cancellations 2023

[Davester50]

All lines are regulated, but to what extent is the question.

I can see the point of having stewards etc, however requirement of the fitment of CDL seems like a step too far to me.

I don't think it's too much to ask to fit a basic safety feature that's been fitted to trains for a minimum of 25-30 years.

 

[43096]

All the usual arm waving evident on this thread. As you would expect.

It’s not difficult: WCRC have been caught not applying their existing safety procedures that are in place to mitigate the risk with non-CDL fitted stock. Given their past attitude to safety, that should not really be a surprise to anyone: the rap sheet is pretty lengthy.

That they have done so at the same time as moving towards wanting a judicial review of the CDL requirement makes this a case of gross corporate stupidity. It is now easy for the ORR to go to a judicial review with all the evidence of past transgressions: it should be an open and shut case.

 

[thejuggler]

You do not need a high voltage to operate a latching relay system, they are commercially available at 12v and even below. They just need a charged battery.

Most cars have a 12v central locking system!

 

[Bikeman78]

I know people jump on this sort of comment, but it’s a wonder there haven’t been thousands of fatalities over the years from passengers riding on charter trains utilising all this clearly unsafe rolling stock. Or wait... maybe it isn't actually unsafe and the ORR are a bunch of paranoid idiots.

Until 2005 there 12 car VEPs running around with roughly 200 doors. Fatalities were very rare. In all the years I travelled on them, nothing bad happened on any train that I was on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

The ORR has the word "road" in its title. Their website states "We are here to monitor National Highways' management of the strategic road network – the motorways and main 'A' roads in England. We ensure that National Highways manages the network appropriately to deliver satisfactory performance, including efficiency, safety and sustainability, for the benefit of road users and the public." I assume this means motorways and trunk roads but not local authority-managed roads. Does anyone know what they actually do to improve road safety as most of their website is concerned with railways.

Maybe they should chase up all the potholes and huge puddles that I have to dodge around on my bike. I've been chasing the council about the worst ones for years in some cases. They clearly couldn't care less.

 

[james_the_xv]

Until 2005 there 12 car VEPs running around with roughly 200 doors. Fatalities were very rare. In all the years I travelled on them, nothing bad happened on any train that I was on.

Once in a lifetime tourists wanting the best camera shot/ignorant of the risks pose far more of an issue than regular commuters who would use slam door stock regularly IMO.

 

[Bikeman78]

Annual Report for 2022

www.gov.uk

God save us from so called 'railway enthusiasts' who endanger their own lives (and those of others) while setting poor examples to and disappointing others, including children.

Children aren't stupid, unless brought up by stupid people. My son is five. He asked why there are fences at the end of platforms. I explained that they are to stop people walking off the ramp onto the track. He said why would people do that! He also pointed out that they could easily jump off the platform instead.

 

[JonathanH]

Until 2005 there 12 car VEPs running around with roughly 200 doors. Fatalities were very rare. In all the years I travelled on them, nothing bad happened on any train that I was on.

Neither here nor there. VEPs would not be acceptable now. The potential for injury exists and can be eliminated by not having that sort of rolling stock.

The ORR does not want the general public, including railtour passengers who think they know what they are doing, to operate manual train doors. It has the power to make such a decision.

Indeed, it has the power to ban all remaining slam door stock from the network, and even from heritage lines, if it sees fit.

 

[Bikeman78]

Once in a lifetime tourists wanting the best camera shot/ignorant of the risks pose far more of an issue than regular commuters who would use slam door stock regularly IMO.

There were over 190 of them running all over the Southern region. Plenty of tourists travelled on them, e.g. to Brighton or on boat trains from Dover.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

Neither here nor there. VEPs would not be acceptable now. The potential for injury exists and can be eliminated by not having that sort of rolling stock.

The ORR does not want the general public, including railtour passengers who think they know what they are doing, to operate manual train doors. It has the power to make such a decision.

Indeed, it has the power to ban all remaining slam door stock from the network, and even from heritage lines, if it sees fit.

My point is, the risk was very small, even with vast numbers of slam doors running around. It's even smaller now.

 

[Bill57p9]

You do not need a high voltage to operate a latching relay system, they are commercially available at 12v and even below. They just need a charged battery.

Which of course all mk 1 coaching stock has, for the lights, typically recharged from a dynamo. 24v from vague memory.
And before anyone mentions through train wiring, it’s already fitted for the PA system. Good old TDM push-pull used this existing cabling for train control. The reasons for resisting CDL are not technical.

In relation to slam door stock, in the absence of secondary locks it also presents a risk to anyone standing too close to the platform edge. Yes the Whole risk can be considered Darwinism in action but CDL is possible and therefore not doing so isn’t ALARP.

However this prohibition notice has no direct link to CDL: This is an operator caught failing to apply their own safe system of operation. As this isn’t the first time, I would expect some close attention to be paid by the regulator to the whole operation.

 

[Davester50]

My point is, the risk was very small, even with vast numbers of slam doors running around. It's even smaller now.

The fatalities here and here are a good reason for limiting the opening. You only need to see the shape of some trees that are beside the track to know they're trimmed back by the trains.

 

[paul1609]

You do not need a high voltage to operate a latching relay system, they are commercially available at 12v and even below. They just need a charged battery.

The issue is not that it is technically impossible to do, the issue is that there is no system available that has approval for use on the national network. Most of the systems that were previously used by TOCs used either a 100 volt solenoid or a compressed air locking bolt. much of the equipment was either scrapped with the coach or recovered and has already been re-used.
It has been known in heritage railway circles for a long time that the 24 volts electrical system used in Mk1 stock with Vacuum Braked/ Steam heat is extremely marginal especially when used at low speed the dynamos generally don't charge the batteries until the vehicle speed reaches 25 to 28 mph.
I don't pretend to have a knowledge of the economics of the jacobite operation but it may well be that the cost of approval and fitment of a CDL system plus the approval and upgrading of what was essentially a carriage lighting system to power a safety critical system means that the MK1 stock currently used on the Jacobite is no longer viable. The ORR kind of hints that this might well be the case in the suggestion that there is nothing to stop WC operating the Jacobite with alternative stock.

 

[12LDA28C]

I concur with this. It isn't worth the safety risk or the risk to the charter operations sector as a whole. Isn't the first time WCR have had a flagrant disregard for the rules either. It would be a shame but I hope they get slapped with another prohibition notice and told to sort their sh*t out before someone seriously injures themselves because of WCR mismanagement and ego.

The safety risk? Of people opening the doors on the move and injuring themselves? That risk is infinitesimal. I've been on plenty of WCRC-operated charter trains and incredibly, have never seen anyone attempt to throw themselves out of the train on the move.

 

[D6130]

The ORR kind of hints that this might well be the case in the suggestion that there is nothing to stop WC operating the Jacobite with alternative stock.

What other stock do they have that could be used? Presumably their vacuum-braked mark 2 stock also has the same type of manually-operated bolts.

 

[paul1609]

What other stock do they have that could be used? Presumably their vacuum-braked mark 2 stock also has the same type of manually-operated bolts.

Presumably it would have to be hired in.

 

[railfan99]

It’s more like the last 5 years, and due to two high profile fatalities. As much as I like slam door/droplight stock, it’s not worth people dying over it. The rules are spelled out clearly, and if they aren’t followed then only the operator is accountable for that.

We all agree no one ought die. RIP.

But every decade your heritage trains (preserved and main line combined) carry a few million passengers.

Every activity in life has risk. Do we refuse to cross busy roads? Even at a pedestrian crossing with traffic lights, one can still get mown down if a car's brakes failed or a hoon drove at us. But we do a risk assessment for a microsecond, and know from past experience the benefits vastly outweigh the risks.

Do we ban car travel that has a far higher fatality rate per thousand journeys than heritage rail operations? Passengers can often open car doors in transit if they choose, but to do that would be idiotic, so it's rarer than hen's teeth.

I agree on main lines it can be dangerous to stick one's head out the window if there is an adjacent track with other trains potentially whoosing past at high speeds of say 130-225kmh or above (not high compared to true high speed rail, but still significant). Tunnels, overhead stanchions and some railside signs can be other dangers.

However, on branch or secondary main lines with lower speeds and fewer other trains surely there are fewer potential obstructions (except for tunnels). How many other trains is 'The Jacobite' going to cross?

Given what from my extensive travel occurs in other nations (India and Sri Lanka as extremes, where one can hang out of or in completely open doors, in India at up to c.100kmh), ORR's view seems a huge overreaction.

Just as the vast majority of air travellers aren't going to try to open an aircraft door even when the plane is about to land (as one fellow successfully recent did), provided conductors and car attendants check that slam doors are properly shut on departure, no one's going to try to open it when the train is moving, or after it's been shut.

Similarly, the prohibition on sticking one's head from the window of a door is overkill. USA-style paranoia, at least on secondary main and branch lines.

The greatest danger to Western socities is thousands of bureaucrats in multiple departments or agencies with nothing to do except think of more regulations/legislation that limit our freedoms.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" is generally a big fib.

 

[Iskra]

We all agree no one ought die. RIP.

But every decade your heritage trains (preserved and main line combined) carry a few million passengers.

Every activity in life has risk. Do we refuse to cross busy roads? Even at a pedestrian crossing with traffic lights, one can still get mown down if a car's brakes failed or a hoon drove at us. But we do a risk assessment for a microsecond, and know from past experience the benefits vastly outweigh the risks.

Do we ban car travel that has a far higher fatality rate per thousand journeys than heritage rail operations? Passengers can often open car doors in transit if they choose, but to do that would be idiotic, so it's rarer than hen's teeth.

I agree on main lines it can be dangerous to stick one's head out the window if there is an adjacent track with other trains potentially whoosing past at high speeds of say 130-225kmh or above (not high compared to true high speed rail, but still significant). Tunnels, overhead stanchions and some railside signs can be other dangers.

However, on branch or secondary main lines with lower speeds and fewer other trains surely there are fewer potential obstructions (except for tunnels). How many other trains is 'The Jacobite' going to cross?

Given what from my extensive travel occurs in other nations (India and Sri Lanka as extremes, where one can hang out of or in completely open doors, in India at up to c.100kmh), ORR's view seems a huge overreaction.

Just as the vast majority of air travellers aren't going to try to open an aircraft door even when the plane is about to land (as one fellow successfully recent did), provided conductors and car attendants check that slam doors are properly shut on departure, no one's going to try to open it when the train is moving, or after it's been shut.

Similarly, the prohibition on sticking one's head from the window of a door is overkill. USA-style paranoia, at least on secondary main and branch lines.

The greatest danger to Western socities is thousands of bureaucrats in multiple departments or agencies with nothing to do except think of more regulations/legislation that limit our freedoms.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" is generally a big fib.

Yes, but equally millions of passengers can travel on a train without needing to stick a head out of a window, so why pander to a tiny minority that wants to do that and may end up meeting a tragic end, with all the associated disruption in the process?

I enjoy the droplight experience as much as I’m sure the majority of enthusiasts do or have done, but it’s not essential and I can see why it may be deemed unsafe. I would argue that it’s perfectly safe if you are always looking forwards to see any oncoming clearance issues/foliage, but clearly not everyone is able to judge the risks effectively or soberly and those people do unfortunately need protecting from the potential consequences of their own lack of judgement.

There’s the necessary risks of day to day life and there’s unnecessary risk, unfortunately droplights are an unnecessary risk to the general public.

 

[JonathanH]

What other stock do they have that could be used? Presumably their vacuum-braked mark 2 stock also has the same type of manually-operated bolts.

WCRC still have a number of late build Mark 2f carriages with central door locking although they haven't been used latterly for any prolonged period of time. The 'Spirit of the Lakes' set of pullman coaches could also be used although the capacity they offer is much less and it doesn't have central door locking.

The vacuum braked early mark 2s have the same manually operated bolts.

However, the fundamental point is that passengers need to be kept away from the doors by ORR-compliant stewarding whatever rolling stock is used.

 

[Lost property]

We all agree no one ought die. RIP.

But every decade your heritage trains (preserved and main line combined) carry a few million passengers.

Every activity in life has risk. Do we refuse to cross busy roads? Even at a pedestrian crossing with traffic lights, one can still get mown down if a car's brakes failed or a hoon drove at us. But we do a risk assessment for a microsecond, and know from past experience the benefits vastly outweigh the risks.

Do we ban car travel that has a far higher fatality rate per thousand journeys than heritage rail operations? Passengers can often open car doors in transit if they choose, but to do that would be idiotic, so it's rarer than hen's teeth.

I agree on main lines it can be dangerous to stick one's head out the window if there is an adjacent track with other trains potentially whoosing past at high speeds of say 130-225kmh or above (not high compared to true high speed rail, but still significant). Tunnels, overhead stanchions and some railside signs can be other dangers.

However, on branch or secondary main lines with lower speeds and fewer other trains surely there are fewer potential obstructions (except for tunnels). How many other trains is 'The Jacobite' going to cross?

Given what from my extensive travel occurs in other nations (India and Sri Lanka as extremes, where one can hang out of or in completely open doors, in India at up to c.100kmh), ORR's view seems a huge overreaction.

Just as the vast majority of air travellers aren't going to try to open an aircraft door even when the plane is about to land (as one fellow successfully recent did), provided conductors and car attendants check that slam doors are properly shut on departure, no one's going to try to open it when the train is moving, or after it's been shut.

Similarly, the prohibition on sticking one's head from the window of a door is overkill. USA-style paranoia, at least on secondary main and branch lines.

The greatest danger to Western socities is thousands of bureaucrats in multiple departments or agencies with nothing to do except think of more regulations/legislation that limit our freedoms.

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" is generally a big fib.

Sorry, but, that unfortunately that's not true because it happened to me on a DMU one day.

The doors, on a two car set, were externally checked by two guards as it happened (incidentally, my own technique of "point / identify" as in aviation was openly derided by some long term volunteers because, you've guessed it," British Railways didn't do it like that !!" " but when we arrived at our destination, we noticed one was partially open.

We went to investigate and noted an individual seated by the door. His appearance and attire raised instant suspicions, what I now know to be a "Tops boy " as did the smirking "prove it " look on his face. As the compartment only had two / three more people in, non sat near the door, this was impossible of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, the fundamental point is that passengers need to be kept away from the doors by ORR-compliant stewarding whatever rolling stock is used.

If the doors are fitted with CDL and window bars/droplight locks there's no more need for that than on a 158, because the door can't come open and you can't lean out.

For heritage lines I can see a case for auditably doing work so droplight hanging is very unlikely physically result in injury. With many preserved lines being single track on a wider formation this isn't hard to achieve.

For the mainline just make bars and CDL mandatory. If there's no 24V Mk1 suitable system now there's enough charter operators to fund developing one, or do the work to add generator vehicles or better batteries to power the Chiltern electromagnetic system properly.

 

[JonathanH]

For the mainline just make bars and CDL mandatory.

It is more than that. Passengers should not operate the doors at all, even on trains with CDL and window bars. That means the trains need the same number of stewards as doors. Passengers need to be instructed that under no circumstances are they allowed to go near the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is more than that. Passengers should not operate the doors at all, even on trains with CDL and window bars. That means the trains need the same number of stewards as doors. Passengers need to be instructed that under no circumstances are they allowed to go near the doors.

That isn't the case on the Night Riviera, so why should it be on a charter fitted with the same door safety systems?

If the doors have locks and you can't lean out they are no less safe than an automatic door. If that's indeed the rule, it IS ridiculous.

 

[JonathanH]

That isn't the case on the Night Riviera, so why should it be on a charter fitted with the same door safety systems?

Isn't the operation of the Night Riviera based on local door operation only now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the operation of the Night Riviera based on local door operation only now?

No.

What they did do is add droplight locks. (I was surprised they did that rather than the presumably cheaper bars).

 

[Jan Mayen]

Sorry, but, that unfortunately that's not true because it happened to me on a DMU one day.

The doors, on a two car set, were externally checked by two guards as it happened (incidentally, my own technique of "point / identify" as in aviation was openly derided by some long term volunteers because, you've guessed it," British Railways didn't do it like that !!" " but when we arrived at our destination, we noticed one was partially open.

We went to investigate and noted an individual seated by the door. His appearance and attire raised instant suspicions, what I now know to be a "Tops boy " as did the smirking "prove it " look on his face. As the compartment only had two / three more people in, non sat near the door, this was impossible of course.

Sorry, but what is a Tops boy?

 

[12C]

Would it not be possible just to use a simple carriage key lock (possibly even the existing one used to lock a door out of use), operated by staff prior to departure- similar to what the Ffestiniog railway does? There could be a key kept in a Perspex case by the doors for use by passengers to unlock the door in an emergency, similar to the emergency hammer boxes.

So before departure, a member of traincrew walks down the platform, locks all the doors manually, then unlocks them at station stops. This would also ensure only fully platformed doors could be unlocked.

 

[Lost property]

Sorry, but what is a Tops boy?

Well according to those on here who know, it's a definition of the more "obsessed" enthusiasts, lacking in social skills, dressed as a stereotype spotter and with little or no regard for rules / regs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not be possible just to use a simple carriage key lock (possibly even the existing one used to lock a door out of use), operated by staff prior to departure- similar to what the Ffestiniog railway does? There could be a key kept in a Perspex case by the doors for use by passengers to unlock the door in an emergency, similar to the emergency hammer boxes.

So before departure, a member of traincrew walks down the platform, locks all the doors manually, then unlocks them at station stops. This would also ensure only fully platformed doors could be unlocked.

Since Quintinshill it's not been legal to lock passengers in on the mainline.

 

[12C]

Since Quintinshill it's not been legal to lock passengers in on the mainline.

On any CDL fitted stock the passengers are all locked in though, with a bolt that can only be released by traincrew operation or using an emergency release. What would be the difference, as long as a means to open the door from the inside in an emergency was provided?

Maybe rather than a key in a Perspex case a new door handle could be designed. Staff key lock on the outside and an emergency release lever behind glass on the inside? It might be cheaper than looking at power operated CDL.

 

[357]

There could be a key kept in a Perspex case by the doors for use by passengers to unlock the door in an emergency, similar to the emergency hammer boxes.

I can only imagine how quickly they would go missing on railtours...

 

[Bletchleyite]

On any CDL fitted stock the passengers are all locked in though, with a bolt that can only be released by traincrew operation or using an emergency release. What would be the difference, as long as a means to open the door from the inside in an emergency was provided?

Maybe rather than a key in a Perspex case a new door handle could be designed. Staff key lock on the outside and an emergency release lever behind glass on the inside? It might be cheaper than looking at power operated CDL.

It would presumably be allowed with a proper emergency release. Not a key in a box, as what if it were lost in the panic due to a fire?