Jacobite cancellations 2023

[Alanko]

There needs to be a proper analysis of where risk actually is, rather than knee jerk policy against charter stock where people choose to experience the "high risk" activity of travelling in a mk1 carriage (as opposed to similar activities such as sky diving or go cart racing).

Perhaps there has been 'proper analysis', carried out by those with less of a vested interest than some gricers on an internet forum?


Between this forum, other forums and Facebook you would think gricers were being asked to pick a limb to have chopped off with a dull axe. They have to moderate their behaviour slightly on a rail tour and the toys come flying out the pram.

Railtours cannot afford to be the one weird outlier that allows window-hanging, self-disembarking passengers and the like.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I understand numbers 2,3,& 4 could you please elaborate on no.1?

The secondary door lock in question is a throw-bolt located on the inside of the door above the droplight (fairly chunky but appearance is something bought from B&Q.) It’s supposed to only be operated by the stewards but clearly WCRC have been observed circumventing the rules by asking passengers to operate it themselves.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps there has been 'proper analysis', carried out by those with less of a vested interest than some gricers on an internet forum?


Between this forum, other forums and Facebook you would think gricers were being asked to pick a limb to have chopped off with a dull axe. They have to moderate their behaviour slightly on a rail tour and the toys come flying out the pram.

Railtours cannot afford to be the one weird outlier that allows window-hanging, self-disembarking passengers and the like.

Judging by the regulations, you would think that travelling on a slam door train was equivalent to having a limb chopped off with a dull axe.

We let people jump out of planes, but travelling on a slam door train without door locking is apparently far more dangerous.

 

[Trackman]

The secondary door lock in question is a throw-bolt located on the inside of the door above the droplight (fairly chunky but appearance is something bought from B&Q.) It’s supposed to only be operated by the stewards but clearly WCRC have been observed circumventing the rules by asking passengers to operate it themselves.

Right! many thanks, I'd love to see a pic of one if anyone has one.

 

[Alanko]

Judging by the regulations, you would think that travelling on a slam door train was equivalent to having a limb chopped off with a dull axe.

We let people jump out of planes, but travelling on a slam door train without door locking is apparently far more dangerous.

How much paperwork do you sign prior to a sky dive versus how much do you sign prior to going on a rail tour?


Maybe that is the answer: get everybody to sign waivers.

 

[yorksrob]

How much paperwork do you sign prior to a sky dive versus how much do you sign prior to going on a rail tour?


Maybe that is the answer: get everybody to sign waivers.

Why not.

I'd feel a lot happier/safer going on a mk1 railtour than a sky dive.

I wouldn't mind filling in a couple of forms.

The risk of "ooh, I accidentally opened the door too early" feels a lot easier than the risk of "ooh, my parachute's just failed, and I'm plummeting several thousand feet to my death"

 

[TPO]

Maybe it's also about the attitude of WCRC. This is not a new issue, and saying one thing (in their SMS they will need to explain how they will control the door risk) then flagrantly not doing what you say could possibly come over as sticking the finger up to the regulator. Not sensible especially for a train operator with "previous."

There's various ways of dealing with this, but instead of doing so, WCRC called ORR's bluff and lost.

Entirely within their control.

TPO

 

[yorksrob]

IMO, there's too much regulation against charter trains.

We've had them for donkeys years without door locking etc, there's absolutely no case for implementing onerous requirements.

 

[Alanko]

IMO, there's too much regulation against charter trains.

That is never going to change.

 

[yorksrob]

That is never going to change.

That's no reason to stop arguing against it though.

 

[JonathanH]

We've had them for donkeys years without door locking etc, there's absolutely no case for implementing onerous requirements.

That doesn't matter. What has to be taken into account is that they are no unique in using rolling stock that doesn't meet modern standards, and operate under derogations.

If railtours were all formed of mark 5 coaching stock, for example, there wouldn't be a need for additional conditions over and above other mainline trains.

 

[Kendalian]

The secondary door lock in question is a throw-bolt located on the inside of the door above the droplight (fairly chunky but appearance is something bought from B&Q.) It’s supposed to only be operated by the stewards but clearly WCRC have been observed circumventing the rules by asking passengers to operate it themselves.

I last traveled on the Jacobite on 25th May 2019. Great trip although in true Scottish traditions it poured down on the way back...

I was told directly by a "celebrated" member of WCR staff to release the bolt myself to open the door. Train stationary at Mallaig with multiple others stood behind me.

Personally no issues at all with that.

 

[kje7812]

Right! many thanks, I'd love to see a pic of one if anyone has one.

An example taken at the NYMR.

 

[Bill57p9]

Maybe it's also about the attitude of WCRC. This is not a new issue, and saying one thing (in their SMS they will need to explain how they will control the door risk) then flagrantly not doing what you say could possibly come over as sticking the finger up to the regulator. Not sensible especially for a train operator with "previous."

IMHO this, rather than the whole slam door debate is the key point: ORR have caught the operator failing to put in place mitigations identified as required by their own risk assessment. That's pretty serious territory in itself, never mind the message it sends about safety culture.

There's various ways of dealing with this, but instead of doing so, WCRC called ORR's bluff and lost.

And of course WCRC are calling ORRs bluff over the central door locking, which is exactly what the mitigations were for.

Entirely within their control.

Indeed. And I would suggest that ORR auditing compliance with the slam door mitigations on the derogation extension was entirely foreseeable.

 

[Dave S 56F]

IMHO this, rather than the whole slam door debate is the key point: ORR have caught the operator failing to put in place mitigations identified as required by their own risk assessment. That's pretty serious territory in itself, never mind the message it sends about safety culture.


And of course WCRC are calling ORRs bluff over the central door locking, which is exactly what the mitigations were for.


Indeed. And I would suggest that ORR auditing compliance with the slam door mitigations on the derogation extension was entirely foreseeable.

So I see this is quite a serious moment for west coast railways policing and stewarding their steam train mk 1 carriages numerous tourists on the west Highland line dogging heads and arms out of the droplights and stewards not been fully responsible for the safety of the passengers who wish to travel to Mallaig from Fort William allowing them on highlights of the tour along Glenfinnan viaduct and other vantage points to film or give folk the odd wave along the west Highland Glen's but unfortunately for west coast railways they have been caught out by a O.R.R Inspection on board some of their scheduled Jacobite tours. And thus I'm wondering is the ban on slam door stock with bolts temporary in place until 26 July or is it for the remainder of the 2023 season until October? And if so I strongly presume its O.R.R. wanting C.D.L. eventually fitting on MK 1 slam door stock like L.S.L. has done under the hoskins trains at crewe on mk2 stock. And also just this only affect the west Highland line W.C.R.C. steam tour operations? Or nationally what W.C.R.C operate also in England beside Scotland. A personal note not mentioning any railway staff but at whistlestop valley railway the K.L.R. to others in Huddrsfield Clayton west where I volunteer its only 15 inch gauge on 3 half mile of track and safety has got to be the upmost importance even travelling at 25mph although our narrow gauge coaches can only accommodate 4 people in a compartment parent's or family's are told not to mess with the carriage handles and Small top lights sliding windows our railway has by the train guard over a P.A. speaker system to tell family's with kids or friends couples etc about the safety rules, And only get off at shelly Skelmanthorpe or Clayton W. I think even at Loughborough G.C.R. passengers were sometimes warned about filming at windows with it been double track Subject to 65mph trains sometime also. I just hope this is a wake up call for W.C.R.C. off O.R.R. and DOSENT RESULT IN A PERMANENT BAN OF THEIR MK1 ROLLING STOCK.

 

[37114]

I just hope this is a wake up call for W.C.R.C. off O.R.R. and DOSENT RESULT IN A PERMANENT BAN OF THEIR MK1 ROLLING STOCK.

Looking a bit more holistically at this, it points to a wider safety cultural problem at WCRC. The lack of willingness to want to progress CDL/ not action previous recommendations is only going to irritate the ORR but also shows the company doesn't take safety as key cultural pillar. That comes from the top of the company so in all likelihood requires a leadership change is required to prevent further issues.

 

[Falcon1200]

I was told directly by a "celebrated" member of WCR staff to release the bolt myself to open the door. Train stationary at Mallaig with multiple others stood behind me.

Personally no issues at all with that.

Unless one of those stood behind you now knows how that lock operates, and that it's OK for passengers to do so, and decides to open the door, while the train is moving, to get a better picture of Glenfinnan Viaduct? If the agreed and stipulated procedure is that only WCR staff operate that lock, that is what happens, end of.

Given that in recent years, two people have died through sticking their heads out of open droplights, and earlier this year a person was injured alighting from a slam door vehicle, the ORR's focus on the issue is not surprising, especially given WCR's history.

 

[paul1609]

Unless one of those stood behind you now knows how that lock operates, and that it's OK for passengers to do so, and decides to open the door, while the train is moving, to get a better picture of Glenfinnan Viaduct? If the agreed and stipulated procedure is that only WCR staff operate that lock, that is what happens, end of.

Given that in recent years, two people have died through sticking their heads out of open droplights, and earlier this year a person was injured alighting from a slam door vehicle, the ORR's focus on the issue is not surprising, especially given WCR's history.

The person injured alighting from a slam door train (assuming you're referring to the GCR incident) occurred because the door was adjacent to the traditional platform ramp. Network Rail have been eliminating these and fitting end of platform fences. I don't know how far in to the highlands this has progressed but from memory it wouldn't occur at Fort William, Glenfillan or Mallaig.

 

[Lost property]

Perhaps there has been 'proper analysis', carried out by those with less of a vested interest than some gricers on an internet forum?


Between this forum, other forums and Facebook you would think gricers were being asked to pick a limb to have chopped off with a dull axe. They have to moderate their behaviour slightly on a rail tour and the toys come flying out the pram.

Railtours cannot afford to be the one weird outlier that allows window-hanging, self-disembarking passengers and the like.

I'm sure I recall when RM3 was published, a comment from the ORR about " 1950's experience, 21st century practices " accompanied this.

Even as an almost "normal" I understand the difference between a heritage railway operation and operating vintage stock on the mainline, but, the ORR who had previously taken a comparatively "light touch" regulatory stance finally decided many operators were being "generous" in their interpretation of rules and regs hence deeper regulatory scrutiny has followed.

I don't accept the comparison between sky diving, although why anybody would wish to jump out of a serviceable aircraft has long bemused me, because the safety regulations and operating practices are far more robust for obvious reasons.

 

[geoffk]

I know people jump on this sort of comment, but it’s a wonder there haven’t been thousands of fatalities over the years from passengers riding on charter trains utilising all this clearly unsafe rolling stock. Or wait... maybe it isn't actually unsafe and the ORR are a bunch of paranoid idiots.

The ORR has the word "road" in its title. Their website states "We are here to monitor National Highways' management of the strategic road network – the motorways and main 'A' roads in England. We ensure that National Highways manages the network appropriately to deliver satisfactory performance, including efficiency, safety and sustainability, for the benefit of road users and the public." I assume this means motorways and trunk roads but not local authority-managed roads. Does anyone know what they actually do to improve road safety as most of their website is concerned with railways.

 

[james_the_xv]

I know people jump on this sort of comment, but it’s a wonder there haven’t been thousands of fatalities over the years from passengers riding on charter trains utilising all this clearly unsafe rolling stock. Or wait... maybe it isn't actually unsafe and the ORR are a bunch of paranoid idiots.

This is such a strawman argument and you know it. So you'd quite happily let numerous fatalities and near misses happen rather than being proactive out of fear of being paranoid? These rules aren't out of proportion and it's been on the cards for years. Jumping on the ORR for this is completely nonsensical and is essentially 'back in my day' wibble.

The ORR has the word "road" in its title. Their website states "We are here to monitor National Highways' management of the strategic road network – the motorways and main 'A' roads in England. We ensure that National Highways manages the network appropriately to deliver satisfactory performance, including efficiency, safety and sustainability, for the benefit of road users and the public." I assume this means motorways and trunk roads but not local authority-managed roads. Does anyone know what they actually do to improve road safety as most of their website is concerned with railways.

At the risk of taking this off topic. On the ORR website the most recent press release is Motorway safety related, and they have an entire section of the website about how they link in with road safety that you can read at your leisure here.

 

[BrianW]

IMHO this, rather than the whole slam door debate is the key point: ORR have caught the operator failing to put in place mitigations identified as required by their own risk assessment. That's pretty serious territory in itself, never mind the message it sends about safety culture.


And of course WCRC are calling ORRs bluff over the central door locking, which is exactly what the mitigations were for.


Indeed. And I would suggest that ORR auditing compliance with the slam door mitigations on the derogation extension was entirely foreseeable.

Unless one of those stood behind you now knows how that lock operates, and that it's OK for passengers to do so, and decides to open the door, while the train is moving, to get a better picture of Glenfinnan Viaduct? If the agreed and stipulated procedure is that only WCR staff operate that lock, that is what happens, end of.

Given that in recent years, two people have died through sticking their heads out of open droplights, and earlier this year a person was injured alighting from a slam door vehicle, the ORR's focus on the issue is not surprising, especially given WCR's history.

Annual Report for 2022

www.gov.uk

This report makes it clear that the ORR is understandably disappointed when its recommendations are ignored and disrespected, as from the Twerton incident. It also makes clear its understanding that policies that lead to more users of less safe roads, eg in inclement weather, are counterproductive. Expressions like 'calling ORR's bluff' are unhelpful, and continuing (and increasing) attention of ORR to this issue was indeed entirely foreseeable.

God save us from so called 'railway enthusiasts' who endanger their own lives (and those of others) while setting poor examples to and disappointing others, including children.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This is such a strawman argument and you know it. So you'd quite happily let numerous fatalities and near misses happen rather than being proactive out of fear of being paranoid? These rules aren't out of proportion and it's been on the cards for years. Jumping on the ORR for this is completely nonsensical and is essentially 'back in my day' wibble.


At the risk of taking this off topic. On the ORR website the most recent press release is Motorway safety related, and they have an entire section of the website about how they link in with road safety that you can read at your leisure here.

You misunderstand the term ‘strawman argument’ I think. To be honest, your own statement that I would ‘happily let numerous fatalities and near misses happen…’ - I wouldn’t, and haven’t stated that - as it is clearly proven by decades of charter trains that these supposed things HAVENT occurred - is itself a strawman argument!

(You’re also making something of an assumption about my age bracket as well.)

 

[james_the_xv]

You misunderstand the term ‘strawman argument’ I think. To be honest, your own statement that I would ‘happily let numerous fatalities and near misses happen…’ - I wouldn’t, and haven’t stated that - as it is clearly proven by decades of charter trains that these supposed things HAVENT occurred - is itself a strawman argument!

I don't think I am. You are saying that because we haven't had thousands of fatalities the ORR are being 'paranoid idiots', I flipped that round to point out you inference of 'we should need thousands of fatalities due to this before the ORR should do something'. That's not a strawman argument (and you don't need to state that to infer it).

You're completely missing the point; there must be hundreds of undocumented near misses per year just on the Jacobite, let alone elsewhere due to the unsafe use of non-CDL stock and droplight windows. Your argument of 'no fatalities = no problem' isn't what anyone is saying, you're just trying to justify the opposition to the ORRs order.

(You’re also making something of an assumption about my age bracket as well.)

You don't need to be of a certain age to engage in 'back in my day' wibble, as many a young enthusiast proves time and again.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Deleted

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I don't think I am. You are saying that because we haven't had thousands of fatalities the ORR are being 'paranoid idiots', I flipped that round to point out you inference of 'we should need thousands of fatalities due to this before the ORR should do something'. That's not a strawman argument (and you don't need to state that to infer it).

You're completely missing the point; there must be hundreds of undocumented near misses per year just on the Jacobite, let alone elsewhere due to the unsafe use of non-CDL stock and droplight windows. Your argument of 'no fatalities = no problem' isn't what anyone is saying, you're just trying to justify the opposition to the ORRs order.


You don't need to be of a certain age to engage in 'back in my day' wibble, as many a young enthusiast proves time and again.

No you haven’t flipped it round, you’ve grossly exaggerated it. I think that if there had been ONE fatality on a charter train in that period, directly caused or linked to lack of secondary door locking or droplight windows, then ORRs view would be reasonable. There has not been a single incident or notable injury (let alone fatality) since 1994 and this makes the point perfectly well.

Just for the record, I have no issue with the concept of window bars on droplight door windows. The CDL requirement is being swept up with this issue - the risk it is ‘controlling‘ is completely disproportionate to the concept of ALARP when you consider the difficulty of fitting it to vacuum braked heritage stock without high voltage train supply. It is questionable at best when you consider that the ORR had been perfectly content to provide derogations since 2004 - what exactly has changed in 2023 to mean that it is now unsafe?

 

[Falcon1200]

The person injured alighting from a slam door train (assuming you're referring to the GCR incident) occurred because the door was adjacent to the traditional platform ramp.

That is absolutely correct of course, but it demonstrated the risk of passengers being able to open doors at unsuitable locations, something which applies to the Jacobite just as much as to the GCR, and at higher speeds (not much, but still higher) than on a preserved line. Therefore some form of control of door operation is required, which it seems WCR should have had, but did not, have in place.

 

[Llanigraham]

No you haven’t flipped it round, you’ve grossly exaggerated it. I think that if there had been ONE fatality on a charter train in that period, directly caused or linked to lack of secondary door locking or droplight windows, then ORRs view would be reasonable. There has not been a single incident or notable injury (let alone fatality) since 1994 and this makes the point perfectly well.

Just for the record, I have no issue with the concept of window bars on droplight door windows. The CDL requirement is being swept up with this issue - the risk it is ‘controlling‘ is completely disproportionate to the concept of ALARP when you consider the difficulty of fitting it to vacuum braked heritage stock without high voltage train supply. It is questionable at best when you consider that the ORR had been perfectly content to provide derogations since 2004 - what exactly has changed in 2023 to mean that it is now unsafe?

You do not need a high voltage to operate a latching relay system, they are commercially available at 12v and even below. They just need a charged battery.

 

[Davester50]

IMO, there's too much regulation against charter trains.

We've had them for donkeys years without door locking etc, there's absolutely no case for implementing onerous requirements.

If they don't want to be regulated, don't use regulated lines.

 

[yorksrob]

If they don't want to be regulated, don't use regulated lines.

All lines are regulated, but to what extent is the question.

I can see the point of having stewards etc, however requirement of the fitment of CDL seems like a step too far to me.