Is the UK a country?

[Butts]

The United Kingdom is a relatively new creation which came into being after the division of Ireland between North and South.

Prior to that Great Britain meant England , Scotland and Ireland ( ie The British Isles.)

Wales is not represented on The Union Flag or Royal Coat of Arms as it was absorbed into England through conquest in the mists of time.

Hence United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to recognise the new status of Eire or the Irish Free State.

 

[Bungle73]

The United Kingdom is a relatively new creation which came into being after the division of Ireland between North and South.

Prior to that Great Britain meant England , Scotland and Ireland ( ie The British Isles.)

Wales is not represented on The Union Flag or Royal Coat of Arms as it was absorbed into England through conquest in the mists of time.

Hence United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to recognise the new status of Eire or the Irish Free State.

Nope. Great Britain has never included Ireland. The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland came into being in 1927. Before that it was simply known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which it had been since 1801 when Great Britain and Ireland were united.

 

[Yew]

I Would say Scotland is like an American state, with the ability to make its own laws, however certain limitations from Westminster that it cannot ignore. Like federal laws in the us. However it does not majorly represent itself on the international stage.

Personally I think that Scotland should try and synchronise more with the rest of the uk. For example how scots law is a little bit different (I think, like it says the same things but different wordings so different technicalities)

I strongly disagree.
(Having spent much of today in the company of Alex Salmond I might be thought to be biased, and I have warmed greatly to the man as a consequence).

Scotland is NOT like an American State. In the US, there is a hierarchy of one Federal entity and ALL of its jurisdiction is subdivided into States. The problem that the UK suffers from, and it really is suffering, is that a) England does not have its own Government, and b) most English people and English politicians talk as if they don't realise that their Country doesn't have its own Government.

For as long as England does not have its own Government, and as long as the English don't acknowledge that their country doesn't have its own Government, then I fail to see how it can be considered a Country.

What on earth does 'Scotland synchonise itself with the rest of the uk' mean?
Give up Government?
Pretend that it doesn't have a government?
Become part of Wales?
Become part of Northern Ireland?

I'm strugging to resist being abusive but I think the post I've quoted is the sort of English-centred and unintended misunderstanding of nationhood that fuelled much of the difficulties that Ireland has suffered (a suffering which has been felt on the mainland as acutely).

I have to agree tha England needs it's own parliament. Look at tuition fees, Wales and Scotland have had their governments say 'they want you to pay more, but we will take the bill' whereas there is nothing for England. However English politicians don't really bother, as for most decisions made by the uk parliament will naturally represent the fact that 70% (I think) of the uk population is English.


With regards to synchronisation. Scotish schools offer equivalent to gcse's and a-levels. So maybe schools could be given the option to teach from the English exam boards to give them more choice (as some exam boards do things a little different. That can make things easier to teach like integration and differentiation are in different modules on one board, and the same in another board)


I hope you understand that I'm not a fan of the Scottish assembly, as England doesn't have one to protect it's own interests (like tuition fees, several friends are going to lose out because of those :/.)

 

[4SRKT]

The United Kingdom is a relatively new creation which came into being after the division of Ireland between North and South.

Prior to that Great Britain meant England , Scotland and Ireland ( ie The British Isles.)

Wales is not represented on The Union Flag or Royal Coat of Arms as it was absorbed into England through conquest in the mists of time.

Hence United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to recognise the new status of Eire or the Irish Free State.

The United Kingdom came into effect when Ireland was united with Great Britain in 1801. Its name was then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The name was changed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after partition, but the UKGBNI is not a different country to the UKGBI, merely a continuation with a bit less in it.

 

[Bungle73]

The United Kingdom came into effect when Ireland was united with Great Britain in 1801. Its name was then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The name was changed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after partition, but the UKGBNI is not a different country to the UKGBI, merely a continuation with a bit less in it.

I believe that's what I just said.

 

[4SRKT]

I believe that's what I just said.

So you did.

 

[T163R]

Well it's a Kingdom. No ?

 

[richw]

According to Wikipedia (yes i know its often wrong)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland[note 5] (commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK or Britain) is a sovereign state located off the north-western coast of continental Europe. The country includes the island of Great Britain, the north-eastern part of the island of Ireland and many smaller islands. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that shares a land border with another sovereign state—the Republic of Ireland. Apart from this land border the UK is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel and the Irish Sea.

The United Kingdom is a unitary state governed under a constitutional monarchy and a parliamentary system, with its seat of government in the capital city of London. It is a country in its own right[10][11] and consists of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.[12] There are three devolved national administrations, each with varying powers,[13][14] situated in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh; the capitals of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland respectively. Associated with the UK, but not constitutionally part of it, are three Crown Dependencies[15] and fourteen overseas territories.[16] These are remnants of the British Empire which, at its height in 1922, encompassed almost a quarter of the world's land surface and was the largest empire in history. British influence can still be observed in the language, culture and legal systems of many of its former territories

 

[IanXC]

I hope you understand that I'm not a fan of the Scottish assembly, as England doesn't have one to protect it's own interests (like tuition fees, several friends are going to lose out because of those :/.)

"Scottish assembly"?? Given the powers I think its clearly a Parliament. Be careful with the idea its an assembly if you're in the presence of Scots, or are in Scotland. On second thoughts just don't go to Scotland.

Remember that "we" in England voted against devolution... (I know it was very different and only voted on in the North East).

 

[Greenback]

The problem arises when people are unable to distinguish between the UK or Great Britain and it's biggest constituent member -ie England.

Congratulations on winning the rugby today - but why do you have the UK anthem played before matches rather than your own. Wales and Scotland have their own for use when representing their own Countries.

Also why do half your supporters display Union Flags rather than the cross of St George. Again Wales and Scotland use their own.

Are the English unable to assert their own identity or do they assume England and the UK are one and the same - no wonder foreigners are confused.

Veyr well put, Mr Butts!

Nope. Great Britain has never included Ireland. The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland came into being in 1927. Before that it was simply known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which it had been since 1801 when Great Britain and Ireland were united.

That is correct as far as I know.

I have to agree tha England needs it's own parliament. Look at tuition fees, Wales and Scotland have had their governments say 'they want you to pay more, but we will take the bill' whereas there is nothing for England. However English politicians don't really bother, as for most decisions made by the uk parliament will naturally represent the fact that 70% (I think) of the uk population is English.

Engald apparently doesn;t want it's own parliament. Perhaps it's because it's citizens believe they already have one?

I hope you understand that I'm not a fan of the Scottish assembly, as England doesn't have one to protect it's own interests (like tuition fees, several friends are going to lose out because of those :/.)

Scotland has a parliament, not an aseembly. From what you say, you are against Scotland or anywhere else having it's own parliament because England didn't want one.

It's precisely that sor tof attitude that has pushed the other UK countries towards sefl government. It really illustrates the lack of distinction between England/English and Britain/British in many English minds.

 

[4SRKT]

It's precisely that sor tof attitude that has pushed the other UK countries towards sefl government. It really illustrates the lack of distinction between England/English and Britain/British in many English minds.

It's difficult to see how you've come to the conclusion that 'many English minds' may be involved here. The only statement you can make with any reliability based on the quotes you've selected here is that Yew may think this. As a sample of 1 that's not really a very impressive statistic.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . As a sample of 1 that's not really a very impressive statistic.

I want to add my support for Greenback's perception here (and I don't mean that its now a view held by two people!).
I commonly hear people talking about the English Government and/or talking as if they believe that the (imaginary) English Government has the powers and the jurisdiction which only a Government of England could posess.

[You normally make sensible posts 4SRKT, but this sarcastic criticsism of Greenback's analysis is uncharacteristic]

 

[4SRKT]

I want to add my support for Greenback's perception here (and I don't mean that its now a view held by two people!).
I commonly hear people talking about the English Government and/or talking as if they believe that the (imaginary) English Government has the powers and the jurisdiction which only a Government of England could posess.

[You normally make sensible posts 4SRKT, but this sarcastic criticsism of Greenback's analysis is uncharacteristic]

It wasn't meant to be sarcastic TBH (except the last bit and I would have said that was actually very characteristic of the way I write, possibly too much so sometimes!). I don't think in the way he describes and I'm as English as anyone (with a little dash of Ulster Unionist background thrown in to enhance the general UK-ism ), and I took slight exception to being typecast as anti-Scots/Welsh or whatever.

What you seem to illustrate in your own post is that you have observed that lots of people in England are ignorant about politics. I observe this myself daily, and while depressing it's no surprise. I'm equally sure ignorance is not uncommon in other parts of the UK either.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . you have observed that lots of people in England are ignorant about politics. I observe this myself daily, and while depressing it's no surprise. I'm equally sure ignorance is not uncommon in other parts of the UK either.

Yes, it can be depressing, and I agree that the ignorance, and the dis-interest that fuels it, is widespread.
But I'm doubtful that its consistent, suspecting that the English are more culpable. Here's why:
In Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland, the local media will trot out all the latest news or noise from their own, devolved, governments, including the 'cult of the personality' stories about the leading figures in local politics. The media in those nations will also carry all the same news and noise from Westminster.
It follows from this that whether a person is interested in politics or not, those in W, S & N.I. will be fully aware of the 2-tiers of Government.

By contrast, the English media only have one Government to report, and so my conclusion is that the English, whether a person is interested in politics or not, will readily overlook that fact that 'their' Government is actually the Government of the UK (despite the references to the 'West Lothian Question').

This is pure opinion on my part, but it does seem consistent with experience, (and I have quite a bit of experience in Westminster and Holyrood).

It goes further, those nations that fought long and hard for their devolved governments are unlikely to forget the passions and bitter arguments along the way!

Finally, hasn't the concept of English Government been unfortunatley aligned with the extreme right, leaving no place left for the balanced discussion of English independence and rendering that phrase almost meaningless?

 

[Butts]

The United Kingdom is a relatively new creation which came into being after the division of Ireland between North and South.

Prior to that Great Britain meant England , Scotland and Ireland ( ie The British Isles.)

Wales is not represented on The Union Flag or Royal Coat of Arms as it was absorbed into England through conquest in the mists of time.

Hence United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to recognise the new status of Eire or the Irish Free State.

Suitably chastised by Bungle & CO - my humble apologies for misinformation
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, it can be depressing, and I agree that the ignorance, and the dis-interest that fuels it, is widespread.
But I'm doubtful that its consistent, suspecting that the English are more culpable. Here's why:
In Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland, the local media will trot out all the latest news or noise from their own, devolved, governments, including the 'cult of the personality' stories about the leading figures in local politics. The media in those nations will also carry all the same news and noise from Westminster.
It follows from this that whether a person is interested in politics or not, those in W, S & N.I. will be fully aware of the 2-tiers of Government.

By contrast, the English media only have one Government to report, and so my conclusion is that the English, whether a person is interested in politics or not, will readily overlook that fact that 'their' Government is actually the Government of the UK (despite the references to the 'West Lothian Question').

This is pure opinion on my part, but it does seem consistent with experience, (and I have quite a bit of experience in Westminster and Holyrood).

It goes further, those nations that fought long and hard for their devolved governments are unlikely to forget the passions and bitter arguments along the way!

Finally, hasn't the concept of English Government been unfortunatley aligned with the extreme right, leaving no place left for the balanced discussion of English independence and rendering that phrase almost meaningless?

Agreed , and as mentioned before why do the English use the National Anthem and Union Flag when representing England in sporting tournaments.

This is either ignorance or arrogance - I'm not sure which

 

[Greenback]

I don't think it's at all controversial or inaccurate to state that many English people have difficulty in differentiating between English and British. As support for this, I would like to cite the use of the Union Jack to show support for English teams demonstrates that confusion is more common amongst English people than the other constituent countries of the UK.

There is also the fact that Tim Henman was described as British rather than English, yet Andy Murray is more often called Scottish. And what about British cuisine? There are quite a few restaurants that describe themselves as Modern British, yet most of them are in England. In Wales or Scotland (I only leave out NI because I have never been there, sorry!) I have noticed far, far fewer establishments calling themselves this; the majority describe their traditional Welsh or Scottish cuisine.

I think that English people do not have such a well defined sense of their own nationality, and this is partly to due to them being unsure whether they are British or English first and foremost. Things are changing, slowly, and I hope that one of the effects of devolution is that the English see themselves as more English. The English do have a fair bit to be proud of!