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Is the UK a country?

Is the UK a country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 35 79.5%
  • No

    Votes: 9 20.5%

  • Total voters
    44
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Bungle73

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I was having this argument with someone else on here a while ago and she kept insisting it wasn't (probably because she's from Scotland). The fact is it is a country. It is a country made up of constituent countries:

From the Ordnance Survey (which wasn't good enough for her...)

Ordnance Survey said:
The term United Kingdom (UK) refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
It is a political union rather than a geographical term.

In international law and international relations, a state is a geographic political entity possessing politicial sovereignty, i.e. not being subject to any higher political authority. (see Montevideo Convention 1933)

In casual language, the idea of a "state" and a "country" are usually regarded as synonymous. The United States are not made up of several 'countries' and the United Arab Emirates are made up of seven 'emirates'. They are both countries too.
 
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Yew

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I Would say Scotland is like an American state, with the ability to make its own laws, however certain limitations from Westminster that it cannot ignore. Like federal laws in the us. However it does not majorly represent itself on the international stage.

Personally I think that Scotland should try and synchronise more with the rest of the uk. For example how scots law is a little bit different (I think, like it says the same things but different wordings so different technicalities)


I don't like what they do with tuition fees though.
 

WestCoast

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The fact is that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is indeed a country. A union of four nations if you like. The international community doesn't recognise, for example Scotland, as a country in its own right, it does not have sovereignty (yet). The Scottish Government's powers are granted from Westminster and they can be withdrawn at any time (although that would be deeply unpopular).

These are facts, nothing more. People who say that the UK isn't a country obviously have strong views on certain things, which is fine, but it doesn't detract from the facts.
 

Schnellzug

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I'd say it's a political grouping, rather than a country, although of course it depends what one means by a country. What does one mean by a country? I might have a look. Wait there...

from my big hardback ditcionary, which includes lots of words I've never heard of... "Country. Region, territory of a nation, land of a person's birth, etc, citizenship, fatherland". So it's the territory that is occupied by the nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & northern Ireland. Also known as the Fatherland.

:-?
 

EM2

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It is as much a country as the United States of America and the United Arab Emirates are, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was.
 

valenta

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It is as much a country as the United States of America and the United Arab Emirates are, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was.

Yep, I would say that it's definitely a country.
 

Eagle

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There's absolutely no question about it. The UK is a country.

The word "country" means many things, but it definitely includes the meaning of "a sovereign state", which everyone in the world agrees the UK is.

The problem arises because the word "country" is also commonly used (especially in Europe) to describe many non-sovereign regions from a cultural perspective, such as Catalonia or Wales or Vojvodina. This use of "country" is IMO equally correct, but gets a bit confusing when you refer to both types of country in the same context.
 

4SRKT

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You can't have a poll about something that is a matter of fact, not opinion. Of course the UK is a country. The status of its constituent entities can be argued over if you like, but the international law the UK is a country.

You might as well have a poll asking if a kestrel is a bird.
 

Bungle73

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You can't have a poll about something that is a matter of fact, not opinion. Of course the UK is a country. The status of its constituent entities can be argued over if you like, but the international law the UK is a country.

You might as well have a poll asking if a kestrel is a bird.

Tell that to the member I had the disagreement with. ;)
 

W-on-Sea

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Yes, the UK is a country. What it is not (unlike many Western European countries) is a nation-state.
 

exile

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A sovereign state is an independent one. A nation state is a state which is also a recognisable nation. For instance, the old Austro Hungarian empire was a sovereign state but not a nation state. The USSR was also not a nation state. They were both multi-national states. However usually states try to redifine themselves as nations as a focus for loyalty and patriotic feeling.
 

Butts

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The fact is that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is indeed a country. A union of four nations if you like. The international community doesn't recognise, for example Scotland, as a country in its own right, it does not have sovereignty (yet). The Scottish Government's powers are granted from Westminster and they can be withdrawn at any time (although that would be deeply unpopular).

These are facts, nothing more. People who say that the UK isn't a country obviously have strong views on certain things, which is fine, but it doesn't detract from the facts.


The problem arises when people are unable to distinguish between the UK or Great Britain and it's biggest constituent member -ie England.

Congratulations on winning the rugby today - but why do you have the UK anthem played before matches rather than your own. Wales and Scotland have their own for use when representing their own Countries.

Also why do half your supporters display Union Flags rather than the cross of St George. Again Wales and Scotland use their own.

Are the English unable to assert their own identity or do they assume England and the UK are one and the same - no wonder foreigners are confused. :p
 

DaveNewcastle

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I Would say Scotland is like an American state, with the ability to make its own laws, however certain limitations from Westminster that it cannot ignore. Like federal laws in the us. However it does not majorly represent itself on the international stage.

Personally I think that Scotland should try and synchronise more with the rest of the uk. For example how scots law is a little bit different (I think, like it says the same things but different wordings so different technicalities)
I strongly disagree.
(Having spent much of today in the company of Alex Salmond I might be thought to be biased, and I have warmed greatly to the man as a consequence).

Scotland is NOT like an American State. In the US, there is a hierarchy of one Federal entity and ALL of its jurisdiction is subdivided into States. The problem that the UK suffers from, and it really is suffering, is that a) England does not have its own Government, and b) most English people and English politicians talk as if they don't realise that their Country doesn't have its own Government.

For as long as England does not have its own Government, and as long as the English don't acknowledge that their country doesn't have its own Government, then I fail to see how it can be considered a Country.

What on earth does 'Scotland synchonise itself with the rest of the uk' mean?
Give up Government?
Pretend that it doesn't have a government?
Become part of Wales?
Become part of Northern Ireland?

I'm strugging to resist being abusive but I think the post I've quoted is the sort of English-centred and unintended misunderstanding of nationhood that fuelled much of the difficulties that Ireland has suffered (a suffering which has been felt on the mainland as acutely).
 

Butts

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I strongly disagree.
(Having spent much of today in the company of Alex Salmond I might be thought to be biased, and I have warmed greatly to the man as a consequence).

Scotland is NOT like an American State. In the US, there is a hierarchy of one Federal entity and ALL of its jurisdiction is subdivided into States. The problem that the UK suffers from, and it really is suffering, is that a) England does not have its own Government, and b) most English people and English politicians talk as if they don't realise that their Country doesn't have its own Government.

For as long as England does not have its own Government, and as long as the English don't acknowledge that their country doesn't have its own Government, then I fail to see how it can be considered a Country.

What on earth does 'Scotland synchonise itself with the rest of the uk' mean?
Give up Government?
Pretend that it doesn't have a government?
Become part of Wales?
Become part of Northern Ireland?

I'm strugging to resist being abusive but I think the post I've quoted is the sort of English-centred and unintended misunderstanding of nationhood that fuelled much of the difficulties that Ireland has suffered (a suffering which has been felt on the mainland as acutely).

I'm afraid Yew does not seem aware that part of the Act of Union in 1707 was the right for Scotland to maintain it's own Legal, Education and Church systems.

If anything Scotland is likely to move further away from the UK not closer.

However in my view a complete split is unlikely :p
 

Yew

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The problem arises when people are unable to distinguish between the UK or Great Britain and it's biggest constituent member -ie England.

Congratulations on winning the rugby today - but why do you have the UK anthem played before matches rather than your own. Wales and Scotland have their own for use when representing their own Countries.

Also why do half your supporters display Union Flags rather than the cross of St George. Again Wales and Scotland use their own.

Are the English unable to assert their own identity or do they assume England and the UK are one and the same - no wonder foreigners are confused. :p


the Uk national anthem is essensially the english national anthem (with the verse about fighting the scots taken out) however we have a few songs that could do nicely :)

I
 

Bungle73

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Congratulations on winning the rugby today - but why do you have the UK anthem played before matches rather than your own. Wales and Scotland have their own for use when representing their own Countries.
England doesn't have a official national anthem. In fact neither does the UK....officially.
 

CarterUSM

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I'm not sure Scotland does either for that matter, though I might be wrong. Flower of Scotland is terrible anyway, in my opinion.
 

martinsh

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England doesn't have a official national anthem. .

Yes, but it has an unofficial one ...

A Song of Patriotic Prejudice

The English, the English, the English are best:
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours,
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers,
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot,
you'll find he's a stinker or not.

The Scotsman is mean, as we 're all well aware,
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair,
He eats salted porridge, he works all the day,
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way.

The English; the English, the English are best:
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!

The Irishman, now, our contempt is beneath,
He sleeps in his boots and he lies in his teeth,
He blows up policemen (or so I have heard),
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third.

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price!

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can,
And little and dark, more like monkey than man,
He works underground with a lamp in his hat,
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and
FLA-A-A-T.

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much,
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch;
The Germans are German, the Russians are Red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed.

The English are moral, the English are good,
And clever and modest and misunderstood!

And all the world over, each nation's the same,
They've simply no notion of Playing the Game:
They argue with umpires; they cheer when they've won;
And they practise beforehand, which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best:
So up with the English, and down with the rest!

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad ...
It's knowing they're FOREIGN that makes them so mad!
For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald
(Michael!) and me!!


:D:p
 
Last edited:

Bedpan

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Can somebody tell me the difference between a country (England/Scotland) Principality (Wales) and aProvince (Northern Ireland).

Are they all nations? (They are in football/rugby terms).

Well put Butts and Dave Newcastle. As an Englishman I have always felt prejudiced because it seems if you live in the UK, you are either Welsh, Scottish, (Northern) Irish or British. Maybe your comment explains why, Butts.
 

Bungle73

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Can somebody tell me the difference between a country (England/Scotland) Principality (Wales) and aProvince (Northern Ireland).

Are they all nations? (They are in football/rugby terms).

Well put Butts and Dave Newcastle. As an Englishman I have always felt prejudiced because it seems if you live in the UK, you are either Welsh, Scottish, (Northern) Irish or British. Maybe your comment explains why, Butts.
Wales is not a Principality. Prince Charles may be the Prince of Wales, but he has no role in the governance of the country, therefore it isn't one.
 

Eagle

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Wales is not a Principality. Prince Charles may be the Prince of Wales, but he has no role in the governance of the country, therefore it isn't one.

And similarly, Northern Ireland isn't a province. Ulster is a province.

Also pet peeve: people using "Ulster" to mean Northern Ireland.
 

W-on-Sea

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Can somebody tell me the difference between a country (England/Scotland) Principality (Wales) and aProvince (Northern Ireland).

Are they all nations? (They are in football/rugby terms).

.

Hmmm......it's not quite that straightforward with regards to rugby in the island of Ireland....

The rugby team of Ireland represents the entire island, north and south. The section here about flags and anthems is particularly interesting (and unusual)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Flags_and_anthems


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Flags_and_anthems


And ..
how scots law is a little bit different (I think, like it says the same things but different wordings so different technicalities)

Arguably Scots law is more than a little bit different from that elsewhere in the UK. One way the distinction is sometimes made is to point of the connections of Scots law to Roman systems of jurisprudence, whereas in England the common law traditions have been more significant.

That, and juries have 15 rather than 12 members, the "not proven" verdict, the very different property laws (feudal; and no gazumping) ....

And the education system too is more than a little bit different from that elsewhere in the UK, too, be it at school or university (especially at the four ancient Scottish universities) too. - The fact that Scotland had four universities for several centuries when England only had two is also quite interesting....
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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A sovereign state is an independent one. A nation state is a state which is also a recognisable nation. For instance, the old Austro Hungarian empire was a sovereign state but not a nation state. The USSR was also not a nation state. They were both multi-national states. However usually states try to redefine themselves as nations as a focus for loyalty and patriotic feeling.

You have put this so very well. I concur totally with your definition.
 
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