InterCity West Coast Bidders

[61653 HTAFC]

I have to say I hope Virgin (or should I say Stagecoach) don't retain the franchise. Currently if I wish to go to London, Grand Central are the only option if I don't wish to give money to that homophobe Souter, which of course I don't. Well, GC or a 6 hour nightmare on National Express, that is.

 

[F Great Eastern]

If that's the branding, that's the branding. I have to use my company's names for things even though there are perfectly correct generic terms that could be used instead.

But my point is this, berating a staff member for it is crazy, especially when I've been on trains where the very same staff are scared to death to even say anything to a passenger who is quite clearly occupying the wrong seats or in the wrong carriage, they are so obsessed with brand image and guff enough to argue with each other about stupid things, but scared to death to say boo to a passenger who is clearly in the wrong.

There are many other train operators who have many different train types, do you see any operator putting Desiro, Turbostar, Electrostar etc on the departure boards? The departure boards are supposed to be neutral, for information not for advertising. Can you imagine Virgin would be happy to put advertising up for other brands in their stations? I'm all for a privatized railway, but this takes the **** and is one of the worst things about it along with companies pricing TOC only tickets about 10-50p below the all TOC's as well.

Actually, Virgin may well have nothing to do with this - many foreign cards (particularly from the US) don't have chip and PIN set up correctly. There's a lot of card swiping still happening. If the card doesn't have a working chip there isn't much Virgin can do about it.

Actually I have a foreign card as well and have had the same problems, since I split my time 75/25 between UK and another country for my work, and I've always had problems with those machines as well, I also have issues with Kings Cross machines declining me, however I can go to any other TOC's machines and the S&B machines in Kings Cross and the cards work fine. Virgin stated to me it was a security precaution to prevent fraud after I complained because I had to queue up in a long queue at the ticket office, who then tried to sell me a more expensive ticket but quickly offered me the off-peak when he realised I knew my stuff.

 

[J-2739]

I have to say I hope Virgin (or should I say Stagecoach) don't retain the franchise. Currently if I wish to go to London, Grand Central are the only option if I don't wish to give money to that homophobe Souter, which of course I don't. Well, GC or a 6 hour nightmare on National Express, that is.

I'd say otherwise; Virgin should just keep it as:

1) We are already in a delayed mess of handing out awards to the franchises as some others said, with the Great Eastern one already behind schedule before.

2) The WCML franchise is going to look tiny when HS2 opens (that'll be the day ), as some others said. They'd probably be little interest in that.

Was my post a bit of a mess then?

 

[F Great Eastern]

My issue isn't so bad with them that I don't want them to get it, they're not terrible or anything like Connex, NXEA, NXEC or Thameslink, but I just think they're more style over substance, they have a reputation that is simply not deserved in my book, they have a lot of flaws and I'd rate them around average, a lot of it is marketing and the Virgin brand which makes them out to look better than they actually are in my view,

You just have to look at the reaction when they lost the WC bid before it was scrapped, the rubbish their supporters came out with was astounding and not in line with reality and their actual performance. They are nowhere near the perfect TOC, not by a long shot, but as I said in the posts before, it's style over substance, someone earlier in the thread used Glamour, well you could call it that, but I just call it window dressing.

Anglia Railways were very good at this as well. Excellent Marketing team made an average TOC look much better.

 

[Hadders]

You just have to look at the reaction when they lost the WC bid before it was scrapped, the rubbish their supporters came out with was astounding and not in line with reality and their actual performance. They are nowhere near the perfect TOC, not by a long shot, but as I said in the posts before, it's style over substance, someone earlier in the thread used Glamour, well you could call it that, but I just call it window dressing.

Anglia Railways were very good at this as well. Excellent Marketing team made an average TOC look much better.

As it turned out Virgin had a justified complaint over how the franchise bid as handled.

I agree Virgin aren't perfect but the 'glamour' they bring to the railway is a good thing imo. Enthusiasts will see through it but most people aren't enthusiasts and their marketing helps the railway as a whole.

 

[ScouserGirl]

My issue isn't so bad with them that I don't want them to get it, they're not terrible or anything like Connex, NXEA, NXEC or Thameslink, but I just think they're more style over substance, they have a reputation that is simply not deserved in my book, they have a lot of flaws and I'd rate them around average, a lot of it is marketing and the Virgin brand which makes them out to look better than they actually are in my view,

You just have to look at the reaction when they lost the WC bid before it was scrapped, the rubbish their supporters came out with was astounding and not in line with reality and their actual performance. They are nowhere near the perfect TOC, not by a long shot, but as I said in the posts before, it's style over substance, someone earlier in the thread used Glamour, well you could call it that, but I just call it window dressing.

Anglia Railways were very good at this as well. Excellent Marketing team made an average TOC look much better.

You really do not like Virgin Trains do you? I signed that petition for Virgin to keep the west coast when they lost it.

No TOC is perfect they all have problems.... Who's your perfect TOC then?

Yes I've witnessed some Virgin Trains staff being rude to customers and most of the time I've used Virgin my ticket hasn't been checked, but they do tend to do ticket checks when boarding at Euston so it does seam pointless to do a ticket check as soon as the train departs.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have to say I hope Virgin (or should I say Stagecoach) don't retain the franchise. Currently if I wish to go to London, Grand Central are the only option if I don't wish to give money to that homophobe Souter, which of course I don't. Well, GC or a 6 hour nightmare on National Express, that is.

Not that same old Souter rant yet again, surely people need to recognise that any individual has the right to their own, personal, opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are many other train operators who have many different train types, do you see any operator putting Desiro, Turbostar, Electrostar etc on the departure boards? The departure boards are supposed to be neutral, for information not for advertising. Can you imagine Virgin would be happy to put advertising up for other brands in their stations?

Train category branding (Zuggattungen) denoting accommodation types and service levels are usual on Europe's nationalised railways - IC, IR, ICE etc. If anything, it's the non-Virgin TOCs who are the exception, not VT who are following a model not dissimilar to DB, SNCF etc.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Virgin use train models, not train categories.

You don't see DB using "Velaro" instead of "ICE" do you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You really do not like Virgin Trains do you? I signed that petition for Virgin to keep the west coast when they lost it.

No TOC is perfect they all have problems.... Who's your perfect TOC then?

Yes I've witnessed some Virgin Trains staff being rude to customers and most of the time I've used Virgin my ticket hasn't been checked, but they do tend to do ticket checks when boarding at Euston so it does seam pointless to do a ticket check as soon as the train departs.

The other direction is more a problem, besides, not everyone gets on at Euston....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin use train models, not train categories.

You don't see DB using "Velaro" instead of "ICE" do you?

ICE is DB's brand for the train and service offering. Virgin just adopted Alstom's brand for the Class 390 EMU, but came up with their own "Voyager" brand, derived from the old enhanced-service standard class offering on XC, for the Class 220/221 DEMUs.

I welcome the use of this kind of branding as it allows, when travelling walk-up, an educated choice for passengers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not that same old Souter rant yet again, surely people need to recognise that any individual has the right to their own, personal, opinion.

Yes, he has that right- just as I have the right to withhold my money from his organization. However travelling by rail to London from Huddersfield there are only 3 services per day I can use without compromising my position. I know that the "competition" is in the bidding process rather than at the point of use, but when all three franchised North to London operators are effectively owned by the same organisation it rather makes a mockery of the "free market" so beloved of our governing party.

 

[najaB]

...when all three franchised North to London operators are effectively owned by the same organisation it rather makes a mockery of the "free market" so beloved of our governing party.

Only if the franchises weren't each won on their own merits. The free market doesn't guarantee that there will be multiple players in a given sector, only that there aren't institutionalised barriers to participation.

 

[northwichcat]

Govia?

(Just kidding)

It'll likely be 'reverse Govia' (Kelios 65%) or a solo Kelios bid for an Intercity franchise.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Right on cue, West Mids ITT has been released this morning:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-for-rail-passengers-across-the-west-midlands

Hopefully they'll crack on with ICWC!

 

[misterredmist]

You really do not like Virgin Trains do you? I signed that petition for Virgin to keep the west coast when they lost it.

No TOC is perfect they all have problems.... Who's your perfect TOC then?

Yes I've witnessed some Virgin Trains staff being rude to customers and most of the time I've used Virgin my ticket hasn't been checked, but they do tend to do ticket checks when boarding at Euston so it does seam pointless to do a ticket check as soon as the train departs.

Yes, I too signed the petition , I was astonished when First were appointed to run the franchise......

I have always enjoyed the service on Virgin and see no reason to fix something that IMHO is not broken..... I could not care less about the personalities who run the company - just that the service is fine and I find the service more than adequate and the VT staff most personable too.... and I have hardly ever not had my ticket checked......

so I hope VT retain the West Coast franchise.

 

[ainsworth74]

A thread for discussing the West Midlands ITT can be found here. Please leave this thread clear for discussions around the ICWC franchise.

 

[HowardGWR]

Some astonishing views posted above. The franchising process does not, essentially, deliver competition between TOCs. Some routes are isolated and could not offer such.

The competition is the bidding process. Once won, a TOC has to deliver what they promised in the contract. Of course, where there is the possibility of competition, the DfT spec against which the bidders submit their bids, should encourage the possibility of that taking place.

It is difficult to see what more could be done, as the difficulties of incorporating such as Grand Central have shewn.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I'd like to see some new blood. An overseas company that already deliver quality, high speed services, maybe?

Or why not a quality airline? In conjunction with a train operator maybe? (When XC was first privatised in 1996, I am fairly sure that BA were part of a bid).

If bus companies could bid to run trains, I am fairly confident that an airline could!

Final thought, could a FOC be part of a bid? Tie up with a company priding itself on customer service?

Would just be nice to see a step change in how things are done, or at least some new ideas.

 

[J-2739]

I'd like to see some new blood. An overseas company that already deliver quality, high speed services, maybe?

JR, perhaps?

 

[najaB]

Or why not a quality airline? In conjunction with a train operator maybe? (When XC was first privatised in 1996, I am fairly sure that BA were part of a bid).

If bus companies could bid to run trains, I am fairly confident that an airline could!

IIRC, some high-speed European services already have AF-KLM flight numbers so there is history of airlines cooperating with the railway.

Final thought, could a FOC be part of a bid? Tie up with a company priding itself on customer service?

They already are - Deutsche Bann owns DB Cargo and Arriva.

 

[BigCj34]

I'd like to see some new blood. An overseas company that already deliver quality, high speed services, maybe?

Or why not a quality airline? In conjunction with a train operator maybe? (When XC was first privatised in 1996, I am fairly sure that BA were part of a bid).

If bus companies could bid to run trains, I am fairly confident that an airline could!

Final thought, could a FOC be part of a bid? Tie up with a company priding itself on customer service?

Would just be nice to see a step change in how things are done, or at least some new ideas.

Also Airfrance-KLM have expressed their interest in running Eurostar services. However the privatised Eurostar services that were supposed too take place haven't materialised yet, DB have been slow in starting their links to Germany.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd like to see some new blood. An overseas company that already deliver quality, high speed services, maybe?
Or why not a quality airline? In conjunction with a train operator maybe? (When XC was first privatised in 1996, I am fairly sure that BA were part of a bid).
If bus companies could bid to run trains, I am fairly confident that an airline could!
Final thought, could a FOC be part of a bid? Tie up with a company priding itself on customer service?
Would just be nice to see a step change in how things are done, or at least some new ideas.

BA was part of the Eurostar UK consortium at one time, but lost interest and sold out.
There would definitely be competition issues if BA, EasyJet or Flybe were involved in long-distance rail bids (London/Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland etc).
KLM had 10% of NS Hi-Speed in Holland but was badly burned by the Fyra affair.

Of the FOCs, DB already owns Arriva.
GB Railfreight is part of Eurotunnel, so might have some interest.
Freightliner has just changed owners (again) - now Genesee & Wyoming of the US.
DRS is supposed to serve the nuclear industry, though it is involved with TPE with the class 68 LHCS operation.

Trenitalia has a franchise passport, but is an unknown quantity in the UK.
Not sure what they would bring to the party, maybe strong coffee in thimble-sized cups? (their freebie in 1st class)
West Coast doesn't look right for MTR.
Japan East Rail is also in there, don't know what they could do, probably right at home with Hitachi kit!

 

[Sprinter153]

That's before you take into account the train managers who don't seem bothered about kicking people out of seats they shouldn't be in. I booked a table seat to work, a woman has bags on one seat, and sits on the other which is mine and refuses to move and tells me to use the non table seat which is not possible because she needs more room for her bags. Virgin Trains staff member: "We're not paid to get involved in conflicts like this, there is a spare seat, take it." twice I had something like that happen.

I see what you're saying but other than politely asking them to move there's not a lot they can do. One can't manhandle them. You could call the BTP and delay the train for it, but I can hear the resounding thunk of the resulting 'please explain ' hitting someone's pigeonhole from here!

Another point. I remember reading in the consultation document that the DfT were promoting a neutral branding promoting the landmarks and areas that the franchise serves. Would Virgin really be interested in that?

 

[pjm0512]

Ryanair West Coast!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Another point. I remember reading in the consultation document that the DfT were promoting a neutral branding promoting the landmarks and areas that the franchise serves. Would Virgin really be interested in that?

Nearly all their Pendolinos have names associated with the route ("City of" etc).
There's also a Wrekin Giant (221 117) for Shropshire.
They also regularly promote events in their area with vinyl wraps.

I think it's up to the new TOC which branding they use, but if it's not neutral the cost of reinstating the neutral brand at the end of the franchise lies with the outgoing TOC.
Virgin has already gone with "Azuma" for VTEC.
The West Coast brand only has a limited life, until HS2 arrives.

 

[WatcherZero]

The following franchise operator also has the automatic right to buy the brand which is another reason Azuma may have been used over 'Virgin X'.

 

[Harbornite]

Whoever gets the next franchise will have to put up with the open access operations of GNWR, which wasn't an issue in 2013. It's probably a minor thing though, come to think of it.

 

[The Planner]

Still cannot take them seriously with all their bluster until they actually order some rolling stock and take delivery of it.

 

[northwichcat]

Whoever gets the next franchise will have to put up with the open access operations of GNWR, which wasn't an issue in 2013. It's probably a minor thing though, come to think of it.

But Virgin WC used to deal with competition from NWT's open access services between Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester Airport and London and also the joint CT/Silverlink daily Liverpool to Euston service, while Virgin EC deal with Grand Central competition.

 

[Harbornite]

But Virgin WC used to deal with competition from NWT's open access services between Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester Airport and London and also the joint CT/Silverlink daily Liverpool to Euston service, while Virgin EC deal with Grand Central competition.

True, and don't forget First Hull trains for rivalry with EC.