InterCity 125s for parcels traffic

[Darandio]

The dead straight, 32 mile, stretch of track from Northallerton to York disagrees with you.

I disagree, it isn't dead straight. No curves tight enough to hinder 140mph running, but still not dead straight. Just saying.

 

[AnthonyRail]

A HST in GBRf livery is surely a fictional livery someone could produce.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, my mistake - the 135 miles is actually all south of Darlington.

How could you forget the racetrack that is York to Darlington? I've had several journeys between the two which had an average speed of 101.8mph!

 

[najaB]

I think we can safely assume that, when HS2 is up and running, the "classic" lines will be reduced to 100/110mph operation in order to increase line capacity and reduce competition.

That's an assumption that has some validity for the WCML, but not really the ECML south of York as HS2 provides no significant journey time improvement for the likes of Peterborough and Doncaster.

 

[Western Lord]

That's an assumption that has some validity for the WCML, but not really the ECML south of York as HS2 provides no significant journey time improvement for the likes of Peterborough and Doncaster.

Unfortunately, neither Peterborough or Doncaster are important enough to justify high speed services in their own right. They just happen to benefit from being on a line that goes to somewhere more important. The economic case for reducing speed will be irresistible. More track capacity, reduced maintenance cost and reduced energy usage (it costs a lot of money to go fast).

 

[najaB]

Unfortunately, neither Peterborough or Doncaster are important enough to justify high speed services in their own right.

It's not just those two, it's all the towns and cities south of York who will find it a bitter pill to swallow that their train service is made worse because (and not even 'so that') *other* towns and cities get a better service.

 

[Western Lord]

It's not just those two, it's all the towns and cities south of York who will find it a bitter pill to swallow that their train service is made worse because (and not even 'so that') *other* towns and cities get a better service.

The only city south of York is Peterborough. Other places may actually find that the train service is better than now as it will be more frequent. Due to the skip stop pattern of services it can be difficult to travel between adjacent towns on the ECML, after HS2 a regular all stations service could be provided between London and Doncaster/York. It could even be possible to open new stations.

 

[najaB]

The only city south of York is Peterborough. Other places may actually find that the train service is better than now as it will be more frequent.

I don't deny that any of what you've written is true, but l give you the challenge of explaining why brand-new, 140mph-capable trains on a 140mph-capable railway are running *slower* as a result of someone else getting faster journey times and making it sound like a good thing.

Doubly so if you're proposing additional stops and stations.

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't deny that any of what you've written is true, but l give you the challenge of explaining why brand-new, 140mph-capable trains on a 140mph-capable railway are running *slower* as a result of someone else getting faster journey times and making it sound like a good thing.

Doubly so if you're proposing additional stops and stations.

Not to mention that some locations offer important interchange opportunities rather than being destinations per se.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Not to mention that some locations offer important interchange opportunities rather than being destinations per se.

i.e. Lincoln Parkway (NNG)

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately, neither Peterborough or Doncaster are important enough to justify high speed services in their own right. They just happen to benefit from being on a line that goes to somewhere more important. The economic case for reducing speed will be irresistible. More track capacity, reduced maintenance cost and reduced energy usage (it costs a lot of money to go fast).

Energy costs are essentially negligible compared to the other running costs in the railway.

What is more likely to occur is that the timetable will devolve into an all-ICEC-shacks service. Like the current Newark/York terminators, but running 2-4tph.

There is little point in running at 110mph instead of 125mph when you already have the stock. And capacity is not going to be a problem - m ost of the demand will have been removed.

 

[455driver]

I would have thought so. They might not retain enough structural integrity to permit them to be used as passenger vehicles but parcels aren’t passengers.

They probably wouldnt retain enough structural rigidity for the roller doors to roll.

 

[glbotu]

Unfortunately, neither Peterborough or Doncaster are important enough to justify high speed services in their own right. They just happen to benefit from being on a line that goes to somewhere more important. The economic case for reducing speed will be irresistible. More track capacity, reduced maintenance cost and reduced energy usage (it costs a lot of money to go fast).

I mean, Peterborough, Doncaster, Newark, Retford, Grantham all behave as their area's "parkway" for the ECML, both for people driving to a major station and for people changing trains for places like Lincoln, Hull, Cleethorpes, Cambridge, Leicester etc. as well as Sheffield for people not coming from London. In that capacity I would suggest that Peterborough and Doncaster do justify those services. Now some of Doncaster and Retford's traffic will probably be taken away by "Sheffield Parkway" on HS2, but Grantham, Newark and Peterborough won't lose anything.

 

[Class 170101]

Another bit of simple maths...

140mph is 12% faster than 125mph. If you reduce the current Edinburgh-London time by 12% (which assumes that speeds are increased along the whole route) you get a journey time of 3h 52m - which is still longer than the 3h 40m that HS2 gives you.

If I'm wrong I'd appreciate a pointer to the correct information.

3hrs 52mins down from 4hrs 20mins. However in theory the Flying Scotsman if you assumed 10% for ease of maths should save 24 minutes. (10% of 240mins or 4hrs). A journey time of 3hrs 38 minutes. Isn't this what HS2 proposes to Edinburgh upon Stage 2B opening?

 

[edwin_m]

I mean, Peterborough, Doncaster, Newark, Retford, Grantham all behave as their area's "parkway" for the ECML, both for people driving to a major station and for people changing trains for places like Lincoln, Hull, Cleethorpes, Cambridge, Leicester etc. as well as Sheffield for people not coming from London. In that capacity I would suggest that Peterborough and Doncaster do justify those services. Now some of Doncaster and Retford's traffic will probably be taken away by "Sheffield Parkway" on HS2, but Grantham, Newark and Peterborough won't lose anything.

Many people from the Nottingham area drive to Grantham for the faster train service. Some of these will drive to Toton instead. But other than that I agree all these stations will still need a decent London service.

It is also not planned to run HS2 services between Newcastle and Edinburgh or north of Edinburgh, so there could still be some fast ECML trains to and from Edinburgh and beyond. I guess this very much depends on the view of the Scottish government.

 

[najaB]

3hrs 52mins down from 4hrs 20mins. However in theory the Flying Scotsman if you assumed 10% for ease of maths should save 24 minutes. (10% of 240mins or 4hrs). A journey time of 3hrs 38 minutes. Isn't this what HS2 proposes to Edinburgh upon Stage 2B opening?

True. If you ignore the fact that only 135m of the 390m route is suitable for any significant speed increase.

 

[IanXC]

We seem to be rather off-topic here... Can I ask posters to reacquaint themselves with the title of this thread

 

[Spartacus]

I never said it was not possible for HST sets to be used for parcels.

What I and others have said is sticking roller shutter doors 325 style or in the middle of a MK3 is a no go without major, major structural problems.

While not impossible to overcome, you would want very, very deep pockets.

The whole body side would need reskined, the number of horizontal and vertical tophat sections doubled, floor and roof reinforced etc,etc.


A MK4 would be simpler to reinforce but the opening in the side could be no wider than a window.

The existing doors could be widened with ease to a point.

And yes, I have experience in such matters

The more I think about it, the more I think a Mk3 would actually be a decent choice. The only thing I suspect you'd need to worry about getting on would be a York roll cage or similar, and they're not massive things, only 670 mm wide, certainly narrow enough to go through an existing door space, and can turn on a sixpence (when in good condition). Would shutters on those be needed? They'd be a good idea certainly, but I'd be tempted to keep the doors, or go for sliding ones just to keep them fit for an easy return to passenger service, with proper modifications if it's a success.

Mk3s are easy to strip out, you'd just need to to have a strong floor with internal restraints in, which brings me to one possible issue which would be weight: a carriage of fully of laden Yorks would weigh more than if fully loaded with passengers, but if you subtract the lost seats I suspect the difference would be minimal, if anything.

 

[ExRes]

Mk3s are easy to strip out, you'd just need to to have a strong floor with internal restraints in, which brings me to one possible issue which would be weight: a carriage of fully of laden Yorks would weigh more than if fully loaded with passengers, but if you subtract the lost seats I suspect the difference would be minimal, if anything.

An interesting comment, when I joined Res in 1995 there was comment, presumably informed comment, from the drivers already there that Res had tried to get a few HST sets for conversion to TPOs on rolling stock divvying up time, the outcome was supposedly that the vehicles could not cope with conversion due to the weight involved. How much the weight difference would have been between TPO fittings and mail compared to Yorks and mail I have no idea, personally I think the idea would probably have been a non runner simply because the passenger needs would have been higher than those of mail