In your opinion - which TOC has been the most experimental and why?

[ScottGallagher]

People may think I'm mad but I always thought the orginal.Prism franchises were quite experimental /innovative or at least appeared to be until they went belly up.

LTS - new trains for misery line (was it prism that rebranded it to c2c?)
WAGN - Stansted express (317 refurb)
Wales and West - someone help me out here!!
Valley Lines - uniform brand , decently refurbished pacers

 

[cactustwirly]

That is very FirstGroup, to be fair - I've long thought FGW/GWR was quite operationally and technically competent but very poor at customer service and communication (so very BR, really), so we are probably just getting the same deal.

I wouldn't say that, I've been using GWR/FGW for years, and I've never had any problems with customer service or communication. I would say overall they are one of the better ToCs.

Actually I'd say that they have been quite experimental, by taking on the 150/0s and 180s to boost Thames Valley capacity. And also using their resources effectively, ie using spare HST sets on Thames Valley commuter services.
They have also worked to improve services on the branchlines, which now get a much better service than at the start of the franchise in 2007.

 

[LittleAH]

They're just a bit lackadaisical and rubbish. No sparkle at all. Not even any Italian flair, as I had slightly expected. Add to that the botched introduction of a rubbish new booking system, the abolition of the popular seat selector (taking over a year to return), the can't-be-bothered approach to the livery, the fairly rubbish brand.

They are very FirstGroup, to be honest, but not even the best example of that - I find GWR and TPE much better.

Some of the issues there were caused by Virgin, lets just say not being not very forthcoming with the transition.

 

[Mikey C]

Not as experimental as Virgin, but Greater Anglia needs mentioning for its fleet renewal programme, especially the Stadler Flirts which are very different from other trains operating in the UK, especially the bimode versions

 

[gingerheid]

Isn't that the definition of "experimental"?

It's a definition of experimental that would mean Ian Yeowart has the crown guaranteed

 

[Sad Sprinter]

First Great Western Link?

Joking. But in all seriousness, I really think the original Thameslink franchise deserves some credit. Splitting the service into "Thameslink City Flyer" and "Thameslink City Metro" was a great idea that created a neat and varied service whilst using near identical rolling stock before FCC obliterated it and began using Metro 319s to Brighton. Plus, their own typface on the stations and the striking blue and gold livery of the trains gave a real sense of identity to service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First Great Western Link?

Thames Trains must have been the least innovative. Bar painting the outside, they basically continued operating the same timetable as BR did using the same stock and took the money, creating the circumstances for the coaches to do very well from Oxford for years, though the coming of Chiltern and "proper InterCity trains" (i.e. 80x) has rather damaged that.

Joking. But in all seriousness, I really think the original Thameslink franchise deserves some credit. Splitting the service into "Thameslink City Flyer" and "Thameslink City Metro" was a great idea that created a neat and varied service whilst using near identical rolling stock before FCC obliterated it and began using Metro 319s to Brighton. Plus, their own typface on the stations and the striking blue and gold livery of the trains gave a real sense of identity to service.

The CityFlyer layout (2+2) 319s are quite pleasant, so you can have that one

 

[adc82140]

From a franchising point of view, I'd say "One". Very experimental in the way that two and a half existing franchises were combined, with a huge diversity of stock and routes served, never mind the huge diversity of staff t&cs as well to iron out.

Had any lessons been learnt before Wessex, FGW and FGWLink were combined?

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

GWR has been fairly experimental, introducing an intensive timetable with trains two minutes apart from Paddington to Reading, introducing super fast Bristol services (I wonder whether they’ll come back), having a mass cascade of stock that has affected pretty much every service they run, and doubling the frequency of the Cornish Mainline.

In fact, it seems almost every TOC has been nominated. Perhaps a better question is which TOCs haven’t been experimental

 

[BayPaul]

Another franchise that hasn't been mentionned yet is London Overground. Although their more recent additions haven't made such an impact, their take over of the ex-Silverlink services was definitely experimental and transformative - they are unrecognisable from their former selves, with intensive timetables, new trains, conversion of the ELL (east London Line) from tube to overground, extension of the ELL service to Clapham, GOBLIN electrification, staffing changes, incorporation into the underground map, fares changes (I think), rebuilding of several stations, as well as a whole new style of concession rather than franchise. I would be tempted to suggest it as the most innovative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another franchise that hasn't been mentionned yet is London Overground. Although their more recent additions haven't made such an impact, their take over of the ex-Silverlink services was definitely experimental and transformative - they are unrecognisable from their former selves, with intensive timetables, new trains, conversion of the ELL (east London Line) from tube to overground, extension of the ELL service to Clapham, GOBLIN electrification, staffing changes, incorporation into the underground map, fares changes (I think), rebuilding of several stations, as well as a whole new style of concession rather than franchise. I would be tempted to suggest it as the most innovative.

Is it innovative? Or is it just applying a well-known and well-developed S-Bahn concept that works in both the UK and many other parts of the world?

To me innovation is about trying new stuff that might not work, not just copying something that is known will?

 

[ajrm]

GNER certainly wins the prize for failed experiments. Anyone remember the Mk 3 sleeping car conversion? Or the tilting trains? Or the parkway stations?

It's a slightly unfair to point to make, as they innovated successfully in many other areas. But still...

 

[BayPaul]

Is it innovative? Or is it just applying a well-known and well-developed S-Bahn concept that works in both the UK and many other parts of the world?

To me innovation is about trying new stuff that might not work, not just copying something that is known will?

I think the orbital nature of the services makes it somewhat more innovative, and the conversion of the ELL into a mainline railway also. Realistically, on this entire thread is there very much that is truly first in class - most suggestions are new fleets of trains, enhanced frequencies, introduction of Takt-like services, new routes, new branding etc, all of which are very much new applications of standard out of the box ideas

 

[Bletchleyite]

GNER certainly wins the prize for failed experiments. Anyone remember the Mk 3 sleeping car conversion? Or the tilting trains? Or the parkway stations?

It's a slightly unfair to point to make, as they innovated successfully in many other areas. But still...

GNER were an odd TOC. Most of the time they just did what BR did but painted blue and creamed the money in for doing so, and had a well-documented (on uk.railway at least) contempt for Standard class passengers - First Class was very much their thing of pride. Yet they did try some odd, almost "in your garage" type things too, most of which didn't really work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2020 ==

I think the orbital nature of the services makes it somewhat more innovative, and the conversion of the ELL into a mainline railway also. Realistically, on this entire thread is there very much that is truly first in class - most suggestions are new fleets of trains, enhanced frequencies, introduction of Takt-like services, new routes, new branding etc, all of which are very much new applications of standard out of the box ideas

Are there other cities worldwide with an orbital S-Bahn service? I guess there must be somewhere, though I do agree most are radial? And yes, I get what you mean about converting the ELL, though really the "shallow Tube" is a mainline railway that just happens to be operated by LUL for historical reasons and have a "one off" electrification system.

The rest of it was indeed made up of what you list in "most suggestions" - that is, if you provide good quality trains (don't have to be new; they could have properly tarted up the PEPs like Merseyrail did), frequent services, simple regular interval timetables and an attractive brand, which is basically the whole S-Bahn model, of course the passengers will increase over running something that felt about as safe and modern as the worst bits of the New York Subway at its nadir at times. Particularly if you do it in a city that is notoriously anti-car.

 

[43096]

Are there other cities worldwide with an orbital S-Bahn service?

Berlin?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Berlin?

Moscow?

 

[telstarbox]

In fact, it seems almost every TOC has been nominated. Perhaps a better question is which TOCs haven’t been experimental

Connex SouthEastern and its successors - I can't think of much apart from new rolling stock, and HS1 but those weren't the TOC's ideas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

C2C wasn't. While it did improve the service no end, it did so conventionally by way of an order of new, conventional, 3+2-seated commuter EMUs and various other entirely non-innovative tweaks.

Merseyrail Electrics (1996) - just carried on basically doing what BR did with the same stock and staff. Slightly tightened up diagramming resulting in poorer punctuality.

 

[Ianno87]

People may think I'm mad but I always thought the orginal.Prism franchises were quite experimental /innovative or at least appeared to be until they went belly up.

LTS - new trains for misery line (was it prism that rebranded it to c2c?)
WAGN - Stansted express (317 refurb)
Wales and West - someone help me out here!!
Valley Lines - uniform brand , decently refurbished pacers

WAGN also introduced the ludicrously successful Cambridge cruiser non-stop King's Cross service. Plus the 4tph Stansted Express services comes from their era too.

 

[Wolfie]

Of course it could be argued that Virgin Trains also stifled experimentation by invoking 'moderation of competition' conditionality to ensure that open access operators such as Wrexham and Shropshire never gained much of a toe hold.

Had they not done so they would have had major issues with DfT (and ultimately HMT).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2020 ==

My mistake - the 442 saga has been going on so long I forgot it was SWR's project.

Yup. SWT got rid of them and didn't want them back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2020 ==

From a franchising point of view, I'd say "One". Very experimental in the way that two and a half existing franchises were combined, with a huge diversity of stock and routes served, never mind the huge diversity of staff t&cs as well to iron out.

Had any lessons been learnt before Wessex, FGW and FGWLink were combined?

Hmmmm.... Isn't that almost like a smaller scale version of NSE?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

GNER were an odd TOC. Most of the time they just did what BR did but painted blue and creamed the money in for doing so, and had a well-documented (on uk.railway at least) contempt for Standard class passengers - First Class was very much their thing of pride. Yet they did try some odd, almost "in your garage" type things too, most of which didn't really work.

I was a regular user of GNER and only used First Class a couple of times when I lucked into a cheap advance. I certainly never felt that I was treated with contempt at all, indeed it got noticeably worse when NatEx took over. They had some novel solutions to stock shortages (first reviving the Badger, then hiring in the NoL Eurostars) and their eventual failure was down to the collapse of the parent company (Sea Containers) rather than an issue within the TOC itself.

I do remember reading about Sea Containers' proposed bid for SWT in Rail, where the dark blue livery would have been branded as GSWR. Among the more "pie in the sky" proposals mentioned were a scheme to steadily gauge-clear the main line to eventually accommodate double-deck stock, and a complete rebuild of Clapham Junction... given the eventual collapse of Sea Containers it's a good thing that bid was unsuccessful!

 

[vlad]

I was a regular user of GNER and only used First Class a couple of times when I lucked into a cheap advance. I certainly never felt that I was treated with contempt at all....

Different people remember GNER in different ways. I used them fairly irregularly when I lived on Wearside and would definitely say that on occasion they'd treat me in a way that would make me wish I'd travelled with Northern Spirit instead.

 

[gingerheid]

I thought GNER were roughly ok. I might even have quite liked them if they weren't constantly trying to pump me full of their nonsense about how great they were and how I and everyone else loved them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought GNER were roughly ok. I might even have quite liked them if they weren't constantly trying to pump me full of their nonsense about how great they were and how I and everyone else loved them.

Yeah, I think they had a very arrogant air, a bit like the previous TPE did.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah, I think they had a very arrogant air, a bit like the previous TPE did.

The same could be said of a certain other former East Coast operator... I'm not sure where you get that about old TPE though, for all their many faults arrogance certainly wouldn't be top of the list.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same could be said of a certain other former East Coast operator... I'm not sure where you get that about old TPE though, for all their many faults arrogance certainly wouldn't be top of the list.

I don't know, there was an undertone of "we're InterCity, don't you know", which seemed to pervade the whole operation including quite a few of the staff. No, you're not InterCity, you're a third rate regional express operator of overcrowded DMUs, you can say "InterCity" as much as you like but you'll never[1] be in the same league[2] as the likes of Virgin West Coast. Posting excerpts from the NRCoT, Railway Byelaws etc also carried a bit of an attitude, not to mention the autoannouncer (a member of staff rather than a trained voice artist) which was rude and clipped-sounding. A nasty TOC from start to finish, and one I used to plan to avoid when visiting my sister in Ulverston - I'd always plan to use Northern instead. Shame, as 185s are actually nice DMUs.

[1] OK, now they've got nice IC style rolling stock, maybe they got there.
[2] There is XC I suppose, but that doesn't count as IC either, it's just awful in every possible way; another TOC I go well out of my way to completely avoid.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Different people remember GNER in different ways. I used them fairly irregularly when I lived on Wearside and would definitely say that on occasion they'd treat me in a way that would make me wish I'd travelled with Northern Spirit instead.

I also remember GNER's proposal to run road coaches as feeders, in most cases in competition with local rail services. Why anyone would want to use such things is a mystery to me. (Lincoln station to Newark Northgate station takes 25 minutes by rail - by road it takes nearer 45 minutes - Nearly half the distance is in the Lincoln conurbation - including the notorious level crossing - and the rest was still single carriageway back in the late 1990s)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also remember GNER's proposal to run road coaches as feeders, in most cases in competition with local rail services.

Yes, I remember that - it was one symptom of their arrogance - "why would anyone use those dirty Sprinters when you can use our coach link"? Integrated transport is good, but part of the concept is not competing with existing services in that manner.

Midland Mainline, on the other hand, did innovate in this regard - the Corby link - which later led to an actual railway.

 

[Ianno87]

I also remember GNER's proposal to run road coaches as feeders, in most cases in competition with local rail services. Why anyone would want to use such things is a mystery to me. (Lincoln station to Newark Northgate station takes 25 minutes by rail - by road it takes nearer 45 minutes - Nearly half the distance is in the Lincoln conurbation - including the notorious level crossing - and the rest was still single carriageway back in the late 1990s)

Yes, I remember that - it was one symptom of their arrogance - "why would anyone use those dirty Sprinters when you can use our coach link"? Integrated transport is good, but part of the concept is not competing with existing services in that manner.

Midland Mainline, on the other hand, did innovate in this regard - the Corby link - which later led to an actual railway.

Virgin West Coast also did the same with:

Preston-Southport
Penrith-Keswick
Macclesfield-Buxton
Coventry-Stratford-on-Avon
Milton Keynes-Luton Airport

Although some of the above were just local bus routes that accepted the relevant tickets.

 

[tbtc]

I also remember GNER's proposal to run road coaches as feeders, in most cases in competition with local rail services. Why anyone would want to use such things is a mystery to me. (Lincoln station to Newark Northgate station takes 25 minutes by rail - by road it takes nearer 45 minutes - Nearly half the distance is in the Lincoln conurbation - including the notorious level crossing - and the rest was still single carriageway back in the late 1990s)

I appreciate that we'll all have different definitions of what was good/bad, and that time may make some things look a lot better/worse in hindsight than they were at the time, but a lot of the people who remember GNER as one of the better privatised operator seem to forget just how little GNER wanted to have to do with other bits of the railway - actively promoting bus services like the Stagecoach 909 from Doncaster to Grimsby/Hull instead of using the long established RRNE/Northern Spirit services (with similar services to Lincoln etc).

GNER were perfectly happy to use other TOCs as a source of trained staff (which caused/exaccerbated the driver shortage at Northern Spirit, which meant many services were cancelled for long periods) but perish the thought that their passengers would share revenue with another TOC.

(I've no problem with bus links to places not on the rail network - e.g. Darlington to Catterick, Leuchars to St Andrews - I've no problem with bus links that go a significantly different way to trains - e.g. York to Whitby or Penrith to Whitehaven - but the link up with routes like the 909 seemed very "anti-rail", which makes it odd that they are so fondly remembered)

I don't know, there was an undertone of "we're InterCity, don't you know", which seemed to pervade the whole operation including quite a few of the staff. No, you're not InterCity, you're a third rate regional express operator of overcrowded DMUs

I get that you're not a fan, but referring to them as "third rate" seems a bit petty - most companies like to give the impression that they are a bit more premium than they actually are, it's nothing unique to TPE (just because they weren't as good as you'd have liked them to be)