In your opinion - which TOC has been the most experimental and why?

[norbitonflyer]

Possibly SWR, in its last throw of the dice, in upcycling the 458/460s, and retractioning the 455s and 442s. Unfortunately for them, they lost out to First Group's "shiny brand new" offering - which, I note have still not entered service.

 

[hexagon789]

For some reason people seem to view virgin in a very rose tinted way, they always seem very adept in averting blame away from themselves and as someone else pointed out ensured they had no serious competition unlike virtually all other toc’s

Wasn't that DfT mandated and simply Virgin following 'orders'?

 

[Ianno87]

Are you counting Silverlink/London Midland/LNWR, or Chiltern?

I mean that Virgin had two competitors: Chiltern and the "via Northampton" TOC.

The former arguably more directly than the latter.

 

[43096]

Possibly SWR, in its last throw of the dice, in upcycling the 458/460s, and retractioning the 455s and 442s. Unfortunately for them, they lost out to First Group's "shiny brand new" offering - which, I note have still not entered service.

You are confusing Stagecoach SWT and WorstGroup SWR. The former did the 455s and 458/460s, the latter is meant to be doing the 442s.

 

[squizzler]

London Midland were willing to experiment with rolling stock. They acquired the Parry class 139 for the Stourbridge branch and would have introduced a class Vivarail 230 on the Nuneaton - Coventry route if the prototype hadn't suffered an engine fire. The 230s would of course fall to the successor franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Midland were willing to experiment with rolling stock. They acquired the Parry class 139 for the Stourbridge branch and would have introduced a class Vivarail 230 on the Nuneaton - Coventry route if the prototype hadn't suffered an engine fire. The 230s would of course fall to the successor franchise.

They were fairly innovative with the brand too, but I shied short of citing it in the thread because that was little more than just handing it over to Best Impressions (who to be fair did an excellent job).

They were, alongside Chiltern, Twitter trailblazers, though.

 

[LowLevel]

They were fairly innovative with the brand too, but I shied short of citing it in the thread because that was little more than just handing it over to Best Impressions (who to be fair did an excellent job).

They were, alongside Chiltern, Twitter trailblazers, though.

I think EMT are often forgotten on the social media score too - they had a 24/7 Twitter presence that is to this day maintained by EMR, not dealt with by contractors but by properly trained staff who actually work in the control room, staff by day and a duty manager by night.

I always feel that in customer innovation EMT were slightly overshadowed by the prior association with Midland Mainline.

OK - MML were particularly good in many ways but on the other hand with EMT customer engagement moved up into the modern age, 24/7 social media, red dot days with discounted travel, Megatrain/MegabusPlus, the freebie giveaways at special events etc. It was only when it moved into direct award status from 2015 onwards that things went a bit stale.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You are confusing Stagecoach SWT and WorstGroup SWR. The former did the 455s and 458/460s, the latter is meant to be doing the 442s.

My mistake - the 442 saga has been going on so long I forgot it was SWR's project.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think EMT are often forgotten on the social media score too - they had a 24/7 Twitter presence that is to this day maintained by EMR, not dealt with by contractors but by properly trained staff who actually work in the control room, staff by day and a duty manager by night.

Yep, that's the way to do Twitter - if you just have powerless customer service staff doing it it's next to useless, whereas if you have control staff doing it it can make a difference by fixing minor issues before they become a serious complaint.

The other thing EMT did, which is very Stagecoach, is put the effort into making stuff look polished, even 153s and the likes. The image is certainly vastly better than the down-at-heel, dowdy image of the Serco-Ned Northern franchise, though unusually for Arriva (given how poor many of their bus operations are) they seem to have turned it around with comprehensive refurbs even of stock that won't be around that long, even if other aspects of that tenure were not a success.

 

[43074]

Probably a contraversial one, but Central Trains. The regional railways network they inherited was a mess of routes, stock and timetabling, but very quickly they introduced new stock and standardised the service patterns and timetables, turning it from a network where you had to check a timetable to know if there was going to be a train to one you could near enough turn up and go on.

Yeah, there were plenty of downsides to this, with lots of staffing issues and many places losing once a day services to far flung places, but overall they ended up with a much more reliable resilient and popular service than they started with.

Yes I'd agree that is controversial, much of the simplification of their timetable they carried out from the mid noughties was because of the fallout from the Operation Princess timetable collapse and trying to recover the performance of the network post Hatfield, towards the end of their franchise it was done to prepare it for splitting to London Midland and EMT. It was also overseen by the Strategic Rail Authority/DfT so not really innovation in the true sense of the word, although it did improve performance. Could do worse than a similar intervention with Northern these days but there's too much politics involved now.

Their marketing was pretty good, and they tried towards the end with the Central Citylink brand, which standardised the offer on their long distance routes which pretty much guaranteed 90 or 100mph stock with air con, a trolley etc. Also ending up with a significant number of relatively new 170s by the end of the franchise which improved their image compared to the start of the franchise. From a timetable point of view they innovated (for want of a better word) with hourly Cardiff to Birmingham services and they tried 2tph between Nottingham and Lincoln for a while, so a very mixed bag all in all.

 

[HowardGWR]

What was 'experimental' about Virgin Trains (really Stagecoach AIUI). I can't see anything beyond talking loos so far. Tilting trains were not experimental.

 

[Horizon22]

That provided the infrastructure - GTR recasted the timetable to take good advantage of it.

But that wasn't just limited to Thameslink routes themselves - the whole Southern metro area was conpletely recast with new service patterns at the same time, such as removing metro splitting and joining, operating a more standardised service all day, etc etc which gave a marked improvement in performance.

This was a major benefit somewhat overshadowed by the Thameslink timetable fiasco. Southern's performance dramatically increased (no doubt also helped by the end of the DOO dispute) with less off-side attachments & simplified working.

I'd echo Virgin being the most innovative, but GTR (or even government) have also tried to be but their implementation has often been way off the mark.

 

[AverageTD]

SWR have been truly experimental, seeing how many franchise promises they can break, how much money they can lose and how many unions they can piss off. Definitely going where no franchise has gone before.

In all seriousness I'd give it to ES (if it counts) for bringing proper High Speed rail and international connections even if that can be mainly attributed to the Chunnel, and it is of course pre-privatisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was 'experimental' about Virgin Trains (really Stagecoach AIUI). I can't see anything beyond talking loos so far. Tilting trains were not experimental.

If anything XC was more innovative - high frequency, high speed DMUs instead of low-frequency classic LHCS. Though you could argue that Regional Railways was there first.

West Coast was a total paradigm shift, but I suppose you could argue it wasn't experimental per-se, though it was a big improvement.

That said there were other elements that were experimental:
- Experimentation with telesales and then Web sales, starting Trainline which they later sold off
- The Virgin Value Single was the precursor to the mass market Advance - before that advance (APEX/SuperAPEX) type fares were a fairly small part of the market and were mostly return fares, requiring the relevant quota to be available in both directions, and had few levels. Virgin pioneered multi-level airline-style yield management.
- Discounted fares in First Class - before that it was First Open or nothing, other than Weekend First, opening weekday First Class for leisure travel
- Online-only half-return single fares
- Market segmentation e.g. by allowing Railcard discounted Savers to be used at any time

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think there’s a few possibilities.

- GNER is an obvious candidate. Excellent refurb job, marvellous brand, striking colours, excellent on-board catering etc.

- Midland Mainline. Again, striking colours, great ideas on-board, the differential of stopping and fast services was also very good.

- Chiltern. Own money put in to build a reliable and excellent infrastructure, great fleet ideas, good timetabling and a serious builder of competition to Oxford and Birmingham.

- Virgin Cross Country. Whether you like the results or not, the concept and the bringing of half-hourly services was revolutionary. The on-board experience also changed massively, so experimental?

- London Midland must get kudos for the Project 110 and subsequent timetable and massive improvements for the Trent Valley. Same with Parry People Mover, D Train and such.

- TransPennine Express have introduced 4 new fleets over the entire time, and all in my mind are a great success. The timetable is mostly excellent, the linkage is vastly better than early privatisation.

- But the most experimental is Virgin West Coast. No doubts.

 

[Ianno87]

In all seriousness I'd give it to ES (if it counts) for bringing proper High Speed rail and international connections even if that can be mainly attributed to the Chunnel, and it is of course pre-privatisation.

ES had become a bit stagnant in product terms (basically riding off the journey time improvements from HS1). However, they do seem genuinely interested in finding ways for new destinations to work: Amsterdam, Lyon and Marseille added in recent years, plus their new e320 fleet.

Their operation strategy also seems quite well geared up to be responsive to demand as well.

The only thing I can't stand about Eurostar is the teeny, weeny, crowded lounge at Gare du Nord; I seem to have a lousy experience every time I use it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only thing I can't stand about Eurostar is the teeny, weeny, crowded lounge at Gare du Nord; I seem to have a lousy experience every time I use it...

Fixed that for you. It's a horrid station in a crime ridden, unpleasant area. Unfortunately Eurostar's main termini all fit this description to some extent (though the Kings Cross area is less unpleasant than it was and the actual station is nice). Bruxelles Midi is a tatty station in an area that feels really dangerous.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A bit out of leftfield this, but I'd go for Serco/Abellio-era Merseyrail.
The "M-to-go" concept of a combined ticket office and shop was a great idea, one which really should have been adopted by their then sister-franchise Northern. As it turned out, the only Dutch Innovation that Northern got was the cycle hub at Leeds, which was underfunded and poorly managed so didn't last too long.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

A bit out of leftfield this, but I'd go for Serco/Abellio-era Merseyrail.
The "M-to-go" concept of a combined ticket office and shop was a great idea, one which really should have been adopted by their then sister-franchise Northern. As it turned out, the only Dutch Innovation that Northern got was the cycle hub at Leeds, which was underfunded and poorly managed so didn't last too long.

Hasnt M-to-go been a big disaster and most are closing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "M-to-go" concept of a combined ticket office and shop was a great idea, one which really should have been adopted by their then sister-franchise Northern.

...and was directly nicked from Nederlandse Spoorwegen, who had used the concept for a number of years. The problem was in implementation - what it gave you was a not very good and somewhat expensive to run[1] convenience store, and longer queues for a ticket. A Spar/Marks and Sparks/Sainsbury's Local/whatever concession plus a couple of TVMs would be better for everyone, really. The idea probably worked better in the days when TVMs were somewhat basic.

[1] Because you'd have to pay the staff the going rate for a ticket clerk, not minimum wage for shop staff.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...and was directly nicked from Nederlandse Spoorwegen, who had used the concept for a number of years. The problem was in implementation - what it gave you was a not very good and somewhat expensive to run[1] convenience store, and longer queues for a ticket. A Spar/Marks and Sparks/Sainsbury's Local/whatever concession plus a couple of TVMs would be better for everyone, really. The idea probably worked better in the days when TVMs were somewhat basic.

[1] Because you'd have to pay the staff the going rate for a ticket clerk, not minimum wage for shop staff.

Given that Abellio is a later rebranding of NS's non-Dutch operations, I'm not sure you can say it was "nicked" to be fair.

The implementation wasn't great, with the pay issue you mention being an obvious problem, but it's a shame that concept couldn't be made to work. I'd argue that it would have been more appropriate for the semi-rural parts of Northern than it was for the inner-city parts of Merseyrail which actually got the experiment.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Fixed that for you. It's a horrid station in a crime ridden, unpleasant area. Unfortunately Eurostar's main termini all fit this description to some extent (though the Kings Cross area is less unpleasant than it was and the actual station is nice). Bruxelles Midi is a tatty station in an area that feels really dangerous.

Eurostar to Amsterdam was a great idea albeit a decade later than it should have been introduced. They should have more trains to far more places by now, COVID notwithstanding. My ex was so keen on a train ride to Amsterdam she nearly booked it herself which if you knew her was unheard of. She wanted me to book everything thinking that my working in travel meant that I would do the booking process with absolutely no mistakes at all. Oh I howled!

Amsterdam CS isn't in a bad area at all by the way. Not the nicest part of town but far from the worst.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The implementation wasn't great, with the pay issue you mention being an obvious problem, but it's a shame that concept couldn't be made to work. I'd argue that it would have been more appropriate for the semi-rural parts of Northern than it was for the inner-city parts of Merseyrail which actually got the experiment.

Agreed, the concept (with the shop done better) might work for a rural village that lacks a decent shop - or rather, perhaps, allowing a shop concession in the station building provided they agree to sell tickets and receive appropriate training for doing so (thus solving the wage issue). Liverpool Central is an example of one that just wouldn't work because there's a vastly superior Sainsbury's Local just outside the station entrance.

Burscough Bridge had occurred to me as somewhere it would work fairly well - or at least until a giant Tesco opened right next to the station!

 

[BayPaul]

I think in recent years a mention should be made to GWR. There are a lot of new services that have been or are planned to be introduced (Bristol superfast, Devon Metro 2tph, Cornwall 2tph, Exeter semi-fasts, a lot more services to Cotswolds as far as I can see, Gatwick 3tph), coupled with what is almost a full fleet replacement with the 387s, 80xs, Castle class, and westward movement of the Turbos. A lot of trains are a lot longer as well. I also think that they have been quite inovative with their marketing, moving from a fairly bland corporate look to a golden age of trains style, with the classic colour scheme, references to Brunel, and famous five advertising. Yes, a lot of this has presumably been pushed on them by DfT, and there are a lot of issues, but still it is quite a transformed franchise compared to not all that long ago.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think in recent years a mention should be made to GWR. There are a lot of new services that have been or are planned to be introduced (Bristol superfast, Devon Metro 2tph, Cornwall 2tph, Exeter semi-fasts, a lot more services to Cotswolds as far as I can see, Gatwick 3tph), coupled with what is almost a full fleet replacement with the 387s, 80xs, Castle class, and westward movement of the Turbos. A lot of trains are a lot longer as well. I also think that they have been quite inovative with their marketing, moving from a fairly bland corporate look to a golden age of trains style, with the classic colour scheme, references to Brunel, and famous five advertising. Yes, a lot of this has presumably been pushed on them by DfT, and there are a lot of issues, but still it is quite a transformed franchise compared to not all that long ago.

Yes and Plymouth has 1 or sometimes even 2 trains an hour to London, all booked 9 or 10-car. Okay some stop everywhere and take an age, but it's a vast improvement on the 90s and early-00s.

 

[43074]

I'm surprised Anglia Railways haven't had more mentions, aside from Crosslink which didn't work out for them, they doubled the off peak London to Norwich frequency, introduced direct Norwich to Cambridge services, started running the odd direct train from East Suffolk to London, started improving the Norfolk branches with more services and involving Community Rail Partnerships etc, introduced new fleets of Turbostars. I guess similar to Midland Mainline in that it wasn't really a priority for anyone until it got it's own TOC at privatisation, then did really well from then on.

 

[squizzler]

TFW - Possibly a good shout, new trains (on the way) , new increased timetables (when they get back to a normal timetable) , all year round Sunday service to lots of place who have never had, they lowered prices on adult journeys within Wales by 10% and kids travel for free up to 11 years old (up to 16's free off peak) and half price for up to 18 year olds, smart ticketing, definitely some outside of the box thinking for Wales who usually just falls by the wayside for everything.

I cannot help but feel you miss what made that franchise so experimental which was with the engineering employed to meet the aspirations. The service quality is not itself experimental IMO:

• Conversion of huge swathes of the valleys to light rail metro,
• Squadron of Tram trains.
• Tri-mode trains (more innovative than bi-mode!) and discontinuous electrification.
• Hybrid class 230s on borderlands rail.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I cannot help but feel you miss what made that franchise so experimental which was with the engineering employed to meet the aspirations. The service quality is not itself experimental IMO:

• Conversion of huge swathes of the valleys to light rail metro,
• Squadron of Tram trains.
• Tri-mode trains (more innovative than bi-mode!) and discontinuous electrification.
• Hybrid class 230s on borderlands rail.

I absolutely agree... but most of that is yet to be seen, so would be a trifle premature to give someone an accolade on the future. If this question is asked again in 5 or ten years. I would absolutely give the very valid reasons you give. But so far I think I have given them a fair recommendation based on what has happened. Not what may happen if this crazy covid doesn't scale things back. Hopefully not.

 

[squizzler]

I absolutely agree... but most of that is yet to be seen

Isn't that the definition of "experimental"?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Isn't that the definition of "experimental"?

If it was being experimented, yes. For now. Its a plan that may happen , or may not. Do you not think when they have started to trial something it becomes experimental rather than plans and drawings? (I know 230s are in progress, so excluding them)