IET 1st class dispute

[AlterEgo]

It's not a great response (though it's hard to judge without seeing how the original question was formatted), but it does confirm that where a first class section turns up unexpectedly on a train, it is not declassified unless the train company takes any one of a number of actions to declassify it. Namely removing the markings, or advertising a blanket removal of first class, or guard declassification, or permission or notices. None applied to the OP.

That has always been the case.

 

[Express380]

It's not a great response (though it's hard to judge without seeing how the original question was formatted), but it does confirm that where a first class section turns up unexpectedly on a train, it is not declassified unless the train company takes any one of a number of actions to declassify it. Namely removing the markings, or advertising a blanket removal of first class, or guard declassification, or permission or notices. None applied to the OP.

That has always been the case.

The response as I read it was first class is not available to all, which is fine but should be locked. I'll be happy to post my email to them if it helps.

 

[Benjwri]

The response as I read it was first class is not available to all, which is fine but should be locked. I'll be happy to post my email to them if it helps.

Why should it be locked though? To a non first class passenger it is marked in exactly the same was as if tickets for first class were available.

 

[Express380]

Why should it be locked though? To a non first class passenger it is marked in exactly the same was as if tickets for first class were available.

Because they are saying it's unavailable so why try to let customers in there.

 

[Benjwri]

Because they are saying it's unavailable so why try to let customers in there.

Because it’s available to any customer who has a first class ticket, which is possible if they are travelling on a longer route.

 

[Express380]

Because it’s available to any customer who has a first class ticket, which is possible if they are travelling on a longer route.

There can be multiple reasons why a First Class carriage is on a service and not be able to be booked. For example it could be joining another service which has First Class Hosts onboard and is merely being unused and transported to another location.

This doesn't suggest to me that it is available to anyone.

 

[Benjwri]

There can be multiple reasons why a First Class carriage is on a service and not be able to be booked. For example it could be joining another service which has First Class Hosts onboard and is merely being unused and transported to another location.

This doesn't suggest to me that it is available to anyone.

As has been established the actual reason is the presence of first class cannot be guaranteed, because the trains operating it will change soon. So when one is operating it with First Class it is just an unexpected benefit for those with first class tickets.

I don’t understand your need for it to be locked out, to a non first class ticket holder it makes 0 difference.

 

[Express380]

So when one is operating it with First Class it is just an unexpected benefit for those with first class tickets.

Ok this one makes the most sense, but you can understand this "unexpected bonus" isn't going to be used that much. However, does not need to be locked out as you rightly said.

 

[Mainline421]

Because they are saying it's unavailable so why try to let customers in there.

No, as you don't need to book any train to hold a first class ticket. Any ticket office or TVM will more than happily provide a ticket to use that carriage.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Here is the answer folks.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway. I am very sorry to hear that there was an issue with First Class bookings for your journey taken on the 23/05/25 at 13:01 Truro-Penzance.

Although there was a First Class carriage on this particular service this was not available to be booked. Therefore Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage.

There can be multiple reasons why a First Class carriage is on a service and not be able to be booked. For example it could be joining another service which has First Class Hosts onboard and is merely being unused and transported to another location.

If you would like to book First Class then you will need to find a service that has these tickets available, or purchase and use the Standard Class seats.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to get back in touch.

Thank you again for contacting Great Western Railway and we look forward to welcoming you onboard again soon.

What I see each day on Real Time Trains is a 5-car IET starting at Penzance and ending at Plymouth with the service pattern Penzance-Plymouth-Exeter-Penzance-Plymouth-Penzance-Plymouth. On Friday 23 May it was 800024. Today Tuesday 27 May it is 800033. All the services are listed as standard class only. I therefore cannot see this as being a case of any part of the train merely being unused and transported to another location.

The issue from the opening post is that the Train Manager asserted that the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class so the train includes First Class so passengers holding Standard Class tickets cannot use the First Class seats on the train. The issue is whether the seats marked First Class are available only for passengers with First Class tickets or available for passengers with First Class tickets and passengers with Standard Class tickets.

However this response from GWR refers to First Class bookings not being available for this service and that for this service passengers have to purchase and use the Standard Class seats. Is it referring to seat reservations? It does not answer the question of whether the seats marked First Class are available only for passengers with First Class tickets or available for passengers with First Class tickets and passengers with Standard Class tickets. If anything it can be read as to imply that the seats marked First Class are not available for any passengers but it is really not clear.

The paragraph "Although there was a First Class carriage on this particular service this was not available to be booked. Therefore Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage." makes no sense at all. This response from GWR really does not make any sense.

 

[Krokodil]

The two sentences "Although there was a First Class carriage on this particular service this was not available to be booked.

No,you would not have been able to book ahead. No reason you couldn't turn up with a walk-up first class fare though.

Therefore Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage."

Well duh!

 

[RPI]

If it's a 5 car IET it can't be locked because it contains the only wheelchair space.

 

[Express380]

If it's a 5 car IET it can't be locked because it contains the only wheelchair space.

Should of thought of that, apologies!

 

[weeklycommuter]

If it's a 5 car IET it can't be locked because it contains the only wheelchair space.

The seating plan for the 5-car IET on page 8 of the GWR Facilities Guide Valid from 1 April 2025 on the GWR website attached to post #75 shows just two spaces for disabled passengers on the train set and both spaces are in the first class carriage. There is a note which states "Wheelchair space (this is in First Class only. If this space is unreserved, standard class holders and their companions will be upgraded)" so the GWR Train Manager would clearly have to allow disabled passengers and their companions to travel in this first class carriage with standard class tickets to use these two spaces.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a note which states "Wheelchair space (this is in First Class only. If this space is unreserved, standard class holders and their companions will be upgraded)" so GWR would clearly have to allow disabled passengers and their companions to travel in this first class carriage with standard class tickets to use these two spaces.

That is indeed what happens, yes. Same with trains with multiple wheelchair spaces and owing to occupancy, only one remaining in first class - wheelchair user and companion are accommodated in the first class space.

 

[RPI]

The seating plan for the 5-car IET on page 8 of the GWR Facilities Guide Valid from 1 April 2025 on the GWR website attached to post #75 shows just two spaces for disabled passengers on the train set and both spaces are in the first class carriage. There is a note which states "Wheelchair space (this is in First Class only. If this space is unreserved, standard class holders and their companions will be upgraded)" so the GWR Train Manager would clearly have to allow disabled passengers and their companions to travel in this first class carriage with standard class tickets to use these two spaces.

Yes, that's what happens on a 5/10 car IET, Disabled passengers with standard tickets can and do use that area, which is the point I was making, it can't be locked out.

 

[weeklycommuter]

In GWR’s published timetable pdf there is a solid square icon indicating that this particular service does carry 1st class accomodation.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/plan-journey/timetables/2025/Train-times-18-May-to-13-December/K1-train-times-18-May-to-13-December-2025-v2.pdf

I raised online with GWR that the information about the 1027 Monday to Friday Exeter St Davids to Penzance service in timetable K1 on the GWR website conflicts with the information in National Rail Timetable 135. The reply from GWR confirms that this service is standard class only and the black square at the top of the column for this service in timetable K1 has been logged for review by the dedicated team. It remains to be seen what if any change is made to timetable K1 on the GWR website.

This is the text in the email of reply from GWR. I assume the reference to 10:25 was intended to be 10:27.

Thank you for getting in touch with Great Western Railway regarding the Exeter St David's to Penzance service listed on the K1 timetable.

I can confirm that the 09:26 and 10:27 service do operate with Standard Class only Monday to Friday. I can see that there is a black square on top of the column above the 10:25 and I have logged this to be reviewed by the dedicated team.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to get back in touch.

Thanks for bringing this matter to our attention.

It looks like something has gone wrong in the handling of information about the GWR train services between Exeter and Penzance that are planned to be operated with the Class 175 trains when these become available.

 

[Express380]

I raised online with GWR that the information about the 1027 Monday to Friday Exeter St Davids to Penzance service in timetable K1 on the GWR website conflicts with the information in National Rail Timetable 135. The reply from GWR confirms that this service is standard class only and the black square at the top of the column for this service in timetable K1 has been logged for review by the dedicated team. It remains to be seen what if any change is made to timetable K1 on the GWR website.

This is the text in the email of reply from GWR. I assume the reference to 10:25 was intended to be 10:27.



It looks like something has gone wrong in the handling of information about the GWR train services between Exeter and Penzance that are planned to be operated with the Class 175 trains when these become available.

So are we saying the whole unit is available for use by all customers?

 

[weeklycommuter]

So are we saying the whole unit is available for use by all customers?

I suggest contact GWR again and ask them.

 

[AlterEgo]

The upshot seems pretty clear. That train is only *supposed to be advertised as having* standard class only accommodation, but you still can’t sit in first class if the train on the day conveys a first class carriage.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The upshot seems pretty clear. That train is only *supposed to be advertised as having* standard class only accommodation, but you still can’t sit in first class if the train on the day conveys a first class carriage.

GWR need to answer this question. They are operating the trains.

 

[AlterEgo]

GWR needs to answer this question. They are operating the trains.

They have. That’s the answer you get from those two responses.

 

[weeklycommuter]

They have. That’s the answer you get from those two responses.

GWR customer service did not answer the specific question of whether passengers holding standard class tickets can use on this train service the seats that are marked as first class. They just confirmed that the train service is standard class only.

The Train Manager said no because "the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class and this is what you have to follow" but the reply from GWR customer service states that the train service is standard class only which means the timetable PDf is not correct and the Train Manager's answer is therefore not valid. Only GWR management can clear this up. Only GWR management can say yes or no to the question of whether passengers holding standard class tickets can use on this train service the seats that are marked as first class.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

I have made online enquiries with my local train operators including GWR asking them to confirm that if and when any of their trains with first class labels are used to operate a standard class only train service all seats on the train including the seats with first class labels can be used by passengers holding standard class tickets as the train service does not include first class accommodation. They all operate some standard class only train services with some trains that have first class labels. I do not want to have any disputes such as the one discussed on this thread on the train services that I use. If I can get a clear answer from them that would avoid any disputes as they are the train operators that run the services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

When a train service is advertised as standard class only standard class rail tickets are sold with the message that they can be used in all areas of the train on that train service and any first class labels do not apply on that train service. I cannot see how any attempt to enforce first class restrictions on a train service advertised as standard class only would comply with the Trades Description Act.

 

[Express380]

When a train service is advertised as standard class only standard class rail tickets are sold with the message that they can be used in all areas of the train on that train service and any first class labels do not apply on that train service. I cannot see how any attempt to enforce first class restrictions on a train service advertised as standard class only would comply with the Trades Description Act.

Exactly and hopefully there will be a result where all areas can be accessed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When a train service is advertised as standard class only standard class rail tickets are sold with the message that they can be used in all areas of the train on that train service and any first class labels do not apply on that train service. I cannot see how any attempt to enforce first class restrictions on a train service advertised as standard class only would comply with the Trades Description Act.

Which retailer says that?

It is a fairly long-running convention (and one applied by most TOCs) but it isn't a rule.

TBH it has a benefit to TOCs - if someone likes first class they might decide to pay for it next time.

 

[AlterEgo]

GWR customer service did not answer the specific question of whether passengers holding standard class tickets can use on this train service the seats that are marked as first class. They just confirmed that the train service is standard class only.

They said, having acknowledged that a first class carriage exists and was on the train, quite specifically:

Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage.

The Train Manager said no because "the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class and this is what you have to follow" but the reply from GWR customer service states that the train service is standard class only which means the timetable PDf is not correct

No, it means a different train operated the service than the one advertised. GWR are implying that the service should not be advertised as conveying first class in the timetable, which does not contradict their answer that you can't sit in a first class carriage if one turns up, it is marked, and not declassified with a Standard ticket.

and the Train Manager's answer is therefore not valid. Only GWR management can clear this up. Only GWR management can say yes or no to the question of whether passengers holding standard class tickets can use on this train service the seats that are marked as first class.

No, the train manager can, as we've established, given GWR have retained the markings in the area and decided not to declassify the train, and in fact told the customer they cannot sit there with a standard ticket. It then comes down to the guard/TM's authority, and they said no.

When a train service is advertised as standard class only standard class rail tickets are sold with the message that they can be used in all areas of the train on that train service and any first class labels do not apply on that train service.

Which retailer says this?

I cannot see how any attempt to enforce first class restrictions on a train service advertised as standard class only would comply with the Trades Description Act.

Same logic as the trolley turning up on a service clearly marked as "no catering" again, but one actually materialising, and them having the temerity to charge for items from it.

 

[Benjwri]

I still fail to see how you can expect that not being able to buy a First Class ticket entitles you to use first class section. The section is still very clearly marked as requiring a first class ticket. The passenger does not have one and therefore cannot use it. The fact it is in some places advertised as not having first class still does not entitle you to use it. There is plenty of standard class seating, which is what was advertised. If you went to a restaurant and it turned out to have an extra private dining room that wasn’t mentioned on the website, would you feel entitled to use that?

Some operators advertise that first class is available to standard class ticket holders, on their website or via announcements, but GWR does not do this, and therefore there isn’t a right to use it unless you ask the crew for permission first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still fail to see how you can expect that not being able to buy a First Class ticket entitles you to use first class section.

Because that is a very common convention which is generally applied by most TOCs and goes right back to BR days.

It isn't a right so GWR don't have to apply it, but it is a usual expected "baseline" situation. Thameslink, for instance, have first class on all their units, but on Sutton loop services, advertised as Standard only, it is available to Standard passengers.

 

[Benjwri]

Because that is a very common convention which is generally applied by most TOCs and goes right back to BR days.

It isn't a right so GWR don't have to apply it, but it is a usual expected "baseline" situation. Thameslink, for instance, have first class on all their units, but on Sutton loop services, advertised as Standard only, it is available to Standard passengers.

While it’s been a common convention, that doesn’t give an eternal right to it. It is the case in Thameslink because the onboard announcements say so, and on the website it is stated that if it isn’t advertised as having First Class it is declassified. This isn’t the case with GWR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While it’s been a common convention, that doesn’t give an eternal right to it.

There's no right to it as it isn't in the NRCoT but it is a very long standing convention, so that answers your specific question of why they might think it is the case - because it almost always is. It isn't a right but it's very common.

It is down to TOC policy, but most TOCs have that as the policy, either formally or informally. Clearly GWR doesn't, but pretty much all the others do, assuming they have stock both with and without 1st.

It is the case in Thameslink because the onboard announcements say so, and on the website it is stated that if it isn’t advertised as having First Class it is declassified. This isn’t the case with GWR.

If the PIS is broken it doesn't make it any less the case on Thameslink.