IET 1st class dispute

[Benjwri]

If the PIS is broken it doesn't make it any less the case on Thameslink.

It doesn’t because as I say it is noted on their website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn’t because as I say it is noted on their website.

Either way my point was that it's totally reasonable that the OP might believe it to be the case because it almost always is the case. Just GWR appear to have decided otherwise, which they have a right to do, but because it's such a common policy (and has been for a very long time, right back into BR days) it's not surprising people might think it'd be theirs too.

They don't however have any right for it to be the case. So having been told it isn't they have to accept that.

 

[bramling]

Either way my point was that it's totally reasonable that the OP might believe it to be the case because it almost always is the case. Just GWR appear to have decided otherwise, which they have a right to do, but because it's such a common policy (and has been for a very long time, right back into BR days) it's not surprising people might think it'd be theirs too.

Never underestimate the ability of the railway nowadays to have a short corporate memory. I wonder if GWR actually have this policy, or has someone just made an assumption when they answered the query? Especially as the rest of the answer seemed rather vague and gave the feeling of a fob-off.

 

[jumble]

If you bought from the forum's ticketing site then we would be happy to support you in your complaint against GWR; drop me a message with your GWR reference (once you get one) along with your forum booking reference number.

It's absolutely not correct.

A train which is advertised as only conveying standard class accommodation does not, by definition, convey first.

In nearly all cases, first will be declassified. Alternatively if the operator doesn't want anyone sitting there, they can remove public access to the area and remove the coach from public use.

They cannot charge extra; anyone in this situation should pay - under duress - and put in a complaint, seeking a refund, investigation into the conduct/behaviour of the staff, an apology and compensation for the inconvenience/embarrassment.

If you bought from us, please let us know and we will assist.

Normally, I would say that anyone involved in a dispute would create their own thread for their specific issue, however if anyone is specifically travelling on GWR, on one these trains, and experiences this exact issue, then feel free to use this particular thread.

I understand the conduct of the Guard wasn't appropriate and this is completely unacceptable; anyone employed in a customer facing role should behave not only correctly but also in a polite, respectful and appropriate manner. I accept staff make mistakes, but when shown the correct information, they should relent.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place at companies such as GWR to ensure that people in such roles have the appropriate people skills, behaviour, and training. This is a deep-rooted cultural problem that is endemic in several train companies.

Please let us know how you get on.

Do you think the same applies on British Airways?
Flights to some destinations do not carry first class and you cannot buy first class
Sometimes a 4 class plane is substituted
I dont think you would get very far by insiting that you wanted to travel in the first class section

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never underestimate the ability of the railway nowadays to have a short corporate memory. I wonder if GWR actually have this policy, or has someone just made an assumption when they answered the query? Especially as the rest of the answer seemed rather vague and gave the feeling of a fob-off.

Also possible. Based on discussions back at the time, it seems to be the case that the break of journey restriction on the return part of the 8A restriction code was also done by accident when the restriction codes were entered into the present system, but due to short memories it has now become gospel (if rarely enforced). You get this sort of thing quite a lot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Do you think the same applies on British Airways?
Flights to some destinations do not carry first class and you cannot buy first class
Sometimes a 4 class plane is substituted
I dont think you would get very far by insiting that you wanted to travel in the first class section

It isn't actually totally unknown for airlines to allow people to sit in the higher class seats when this occasionally happens, though most of the time if it's planned they will sell them. It's seen as a bit of a marketing tool - if you like it then, you might like it when you fly long haul next time too at a fairly hefty premium.

However trains aren't British Airways anyway, and it has long been the convention that if the timetable says it's Standard only you can sit in 1st if you like assuming it is not locked out entirely. It's not written anywhere, but it's the norm.

 

[jumble]

Also possible. Based on discussions back at the time, it seems to be the case that the break of journey restriction on the return part of the 8A restriction code was also done by accident when the restriction codes were entered into the present system, but due to short memories it has now become gospel (if rarely enforced). You get this sort of thing quite a lot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==



It isn't actually unusual for airlines to allow people to sit in the higher class seats when this occasionally happens, though most of the time if it's planned they will sell them. It's seen as a bit of a marketing tool.

True
It is called FLUB

FLUB class: travel in First (F) cabin but with Club (J) service on 4-class aircraft - FlyerTalk Forums

British Airways | The British Airways Club - FLUB class: travel in First (F) cabin but with Club (J) service on 4-class aircraft - We've got one of these coming up in just over a week. J seating is looking 75% full already, but the F seats are still blocked on expertflyer. Does anyone know when...

www.flyertalk.com

 

[Benjwri]

It isn't actually totally unknown for airlines to allow people to sit in the higher class seats when this occasionally happens, though most of the time if it's planned they will sell them. It's seen as a bit of a marketing tool - if you like it then, you might like it when you fly long haul next time too at a fairly hefty premium.

The difference is the airlines specifically authorise you to do this, via the check in process. You aren’t just sitting yourself down in first when you get on.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you think the same applies on British Airways?
Flights to some destinations do not carry first class and you cannot buy first class
Sometimes a 4 class plane is substituted
I dont think you would get very far by insiting that you wanted to travel in the first class section

This is quite common actually but of course the airline gets to make the choice, not you. I could name dozens of airlines and routes where you could do this. In fact I’m sitting in premium economy on Finnair on short haul on my next trip, because an A350 is running the route, but PE is not sold on London to Helsinki. Got an economy ticket.

 

[Krokodil]

The difference is the airlines specifically authorise you to do this, via the check in process. You aren’t just sitting yourself down in first when you get on.

Or on one occasion when my father was sitting down waiting for pushback, "Mr Smith, upgrade now!"

Presumably there was an overbooking in economy so as his employer often sent its staff overseas he got picked.

But yes, a passenger just sitting down on the off chance will get short shrift

 

[weeklycommuter]

I have received the following response from South Western Railway to my online enquiry asking them to confirm that if and when any of their trains with first class labels are used to operate a standard class only train service all seats on the train including the seats with first class labels can be used by passengers holding standard class tickets.

Thank you for contacting us.
If a train type with First Class accommodation is provided and the timetable shows no first class accommodation for that train, then First Class may be used with a Standard Class ticket. Both printed timetables (where available) and online timetables/journey planners indicate if First Class accommodation is available. I have attached to this email a screenshot from an online journey planner to demonstrate this.
Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you require any further information.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I dont think you would get very far by insiting that you wanted to travel in the first class section

That is more due to the fact airplane seats are allocated and you aren't able to just change seats at will once onboard. The last time I flew someone got told off for moving rows and made to go back to their allocated seat, and that was with easyJet so nothing to do with class of seat!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is more due to the fact airplane seats are allocated and you aren't able to just change seats at will once onboard. The last time I flew someone got told off for moving rows and made to go back to their allocated seat, and that was with easyJet so nothing to do with class of seat!

It's all in one cabin but easyJet does charge different amounts for different seats so if you move you might well be self upgrading.

 

[Mainline421]

GWR customer service did not answer the specific question of whether passengers holding standard class tickets can use on this train service the seats that are marked as first class. They just confirmed that the train service is standard class only.

The Train Manager said no because "the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class and this is what you have to follow" but the reply from GWR customer service states that the train service is standard class only which means the timetable PDf is not correct and the Train Manager's answer is therefore not valid. Only GWR management can clear this up. Only GWR management can say yes or no to the question of whether passengers holding standard class tickets can use on this train service the seats that are marked as first class.

I feel like the only way you can see it that way is if you willfully misinterpret things. GWR's position seems very clear, they've decided not to promote First Class on these services, but it is still provided for any First Class ticket holders that travel on them, or anyone who chooses to upgrade. Nowhere have they invited Standard Class ticket holders to use the section in question.

When a train service is advertised as standard class only standard class rail tickets are sold with the message that they can be used in all areas of the train on that train service and any first class labels do not apply on that train service. I cannot see how any attempt to enforce first class restrictions on a train service advertised as standard class only would comply with the Trades Description Act.

It's not advertised as Standard Class only.

I still fail to see how you can expect that not being able to buy a First Class ticket entitles you to use first class section.

You can buy a First Class ticket, upgrades are also available onboard as another option https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=TRU&dest=PNZ&rte=82&tkt=1U1

 

[Benjwri]

It's all in one cabin but easyJet does charge different amounts for different seats so if you move you might well be self upgrading.

It’s both to do with upgrading and weight and balance. While one person is unlikely to affect things, multiple people could make a big difference. The plane corrects for it once you’re airborne, but can’t measure on the ground so it effectively needs a number to start from.

 

[weeklycommuter]

If you bought from the forum's ticketing site then we would be happy to support you in your complaint against GWR; drop me a message with your GWR reference (once you get one) along with your forum booking reference number.

It's absolutely not correct.

A train which is advertised as only conveying standard class accommodation does not, by definition, convey first.

In nearly all cases, first will be declassified. Alternatively if the operator doesn't want anyone sitting there, they can remove public access to the area and remove the coach from public use.

They cannot charge extra; anyone in this situation should pay - under duress - and put in a complaint, seeking a refund, investigation into the conduct/behaviour of the staff, an apology and compensation for the inconvenience/embarrassment.

I totally agree with this. SWR have made clear that this is the case on their train services. I see no point answering the posts of those who claim otherwise.

 

[Hadders]

Thread re-opened for @Express380 to provide an update.

 

[Express380]

Thanks Hadders
So having seen on another thread that the GWR K1 timetable no longer has a black box stating "IET train with 1st class accommodation" on west services to Plymouth and Exeter from Penzance I thought it might be worth reopening the thread not sure if this changes anything. But as that was the original argument of the TM I'm interested if anything has changed or not.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks Hadders
So having seen on another thread that the GWR K1 timetable no longer has a black box stating "IET train with 1st class accommodation" on west services to Plymouth and Exeter from Penzance I thought it might be worth reopening the thread not sure if this changes anything. But as that was the original argument of the TM I'm interested if anything has changed or not.

It hasn't changed anything, other than it's removed a potential line of argument from people who are wrong anyway.

Have you had a reply back from GWR yet?

Until then, I don't think there is anything else to discuss, unless anyone has any internal information?

 

[Express380]

I had a reply to original as posted previously aside from that no they didn't reply back to my second point

 

[Buses in Bath]

Well this complaint certainly has been noticed. Just had the weekly retail circular posted and it has stated that 'GWR train services operated with rolling stock containing a clearly labelled first class area should be treated as conveying first class accommodation solely for the use of holders of first class tickets/upgrades, even when this may not have been pre-advertised.'

As discussed this is almost word for word what condition 15 of the NRCoT states so it looks like thats the policy they are enforcing.

 

[yorkie]

Well this complaint certainly has been noticed. Just had the weekly retail circular posted and it has stated that 'GWR train services operated with rolling stock containing a clearly labelled first class area should be treated as conveying first class accommodation solely for the use of holders of first class tickets/upgrades, even when this may not have been pre-advertised.'

As discussed this is almost word for word what condition 15 of the NRCoT states so it looks like thats the policy they are enforcing.

That's very disappointing and wrong for GWR to do that. It goes against long-standing principles, as well as being strong evidence that GWR are deliberately misleading people by knowingly marking trains as Standard only and then acting differently.

Unfortunately nowadays with many companies each doing their own thing, RDG taking the view that it's not their role to do anything about poor behaviour, the DfT see any kind of fares enforcement as ORR's job, and ORR seeing it as not their remit either, there is no organisation or individual who has the knowledge, intelligence and power to actually do anything about these rogue companies.

Shame on GWR.

Does anyone know if Mark Hopwood is aware of this? As a traditional railwayman I would expect him to know better. Anyone here in contact with him? I hope he is unaware of what is going on, in which case maybe he can get the relevant people to see sense.

 

[bramling]

That's very disappointing and wrong for GWR to do that. It goes against long-standing principles, as well as being strong evidence that GWR are deliberately misleading people by knowingly marking trains as Standard only and then acting differently.

Unfortunately nowadays with many companies each doing their own thing, RDG taking the view that it's not their role to do anything about poor behaviour, the DfT see any kind of fares enforcement as ORR's job, and ORR seeing it as not their remit either, there is no organisation or individual who has the knowledge, intelligence and power to actually do anything about these rogue companies.

Shame on GWR.

Agreed. Unfortunately as you say there isn’t anything stopping GWR implementing their own policy, even if it’s inconsistent with other operators.

If they did want to enforce first a better solution would simply be to match the timetable designation with the rolling stock actually diagrammed.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Well this complaint certainly has been noticed. Just had the weekly retail circular posted and it has stated that 'GWR train services operated with rolling stock containing a clearly labelled first class area should be treated as conveying first class accommodation solely for the use of holders of first class tickets/upgrades, even when this may not have been pre-advertised.'

As discussed this is almost word for word what condition 15 of the NRCoT states so it looks like thats the policy they are enforcing.

I do not want to make any more posts on this thread but I must make clear GWR informed me by email "If the service is scheduled to have no First Class, no First Class tickets will be sold for it. As such, customers are able to sit anywhere on the train, including in First Class if we operate a train with a First Class carriage on it." and on the Exeter to Penzance services "I can confirm that the First Class seating will not be locked, and Standard Class ticket holders onboard these services will be able to sit anywhere". I know nothing about this "weekly retail circular". This is not what GWR stated in the replies I received from them by email. GWR also confirmed that they have updated timetable K1 on their website.

 

[AlterEgo]

All you have to do is read the NRCoT about what is and is not first class and how it is marked or not marked.

I don't think GWR is doing anything controversial here other than perhaps not being in line with some other (mostly commuter) operators' custom and practice in making provisions in declassifying the accommodation.

I mean if they want to run surprise, bonus, first class that's up to them. The accommodation is marked as such and they do nothing to declassify it as per the NRCoT. If you want to chance sitting in marked first class with a standard class ticket you'd better have read the rules!

 

[Kite159]

How long before some Reading based guards start kicking passengers out of the 1st class area of a turbo on Reading - Basingstoke services as they are following that retail brief word by word, even thought that route is standard class only for GWR services

 

[Krokodil]

I don't think GWR is doing anything controversial here

Likewise. I could see why someone would be unhappy if they were standing, but the OP said that there was space available in Standard.

 

[yorkie]

I do not want to make any more posts on this thread but I must make clear GWR informed me by email "If the service is scheduled to have no First Class, no First Class tickets will be sold for it. As such, customers are able to sit anywhere on the train, including in First Class if we operate a train with a First Class carriage on it." and on the Exeter to Penzance services "I can confirm that the First Class seating will not be locked, and Standard Class ticket holders onboard these services will be able to sit anywhere". I know nothing about this "weekly retail circular". This is not what GWR stated in the replies I received from them by email. GWR also confirmed that they have updated timetable K1 on their website.

I suspect that, as the saying goes, GWR's left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Likewise. I could see why someone would be unhappy if they were standing, but the OP said that there was space available in Standard.

The whole train is advertised as being Standard class.

I suggest we leave it there, unless there are any further updates, such as any clarification from GWR, as we're just going round in circles.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I suspect that, as the saying goes, GWR's left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

I can find no information online about any such weekly retail circular. As far as I can see GWR does not issue a weekly retail circular. I do not know if this quoted weekly retail circular was issued by someone who works for GWR or by a person or organisation unconnected with GWR.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I can find no information online about any such weekly retail circular. As far as I can see GWR does not issue a weekly retail circular. I do not know if this quoted weekly retail circular was issued by someone who works for GWR or by a person or organisation unconnected with GWR.

The Retail Circular is an internal document produced by GWR's Retail team, not intended for distribution to the general public.

 

[Krokodil]

I've just checked my emails and have seen the same document so can confirm that GWR have briefed their staff (and those of neighbouring TOCs who are also on the circulation list) that labelled First Class accommodation is for the use of First Class ticket holders, unless the onboard staff choose to declassify it - the only example given is where loadings make it necessary.