Ideas for seaside specials

[RichJF]

Don't XC & GWR still run a seasonal service down to Newquay & GWR slot in a 9th coach to their HSTS?

 

[brompton rail]

I do remember getting an overnight train from Donny to Plymouth on a Friday at the start of the school holidays in either 1983/4? and sharing a table with a nice couple and their son going to Newquay from, believe it or not, Bradford. It was quite full, and the Mk 1 seats were comfy. But I’ve no doubt today they’d be off to Spain with TUI or Ryanair, rather than Cross-Country prices, family railcard or not!

I too remember going to Cornwall in the late ‘80s, but we used MML HST sets which ran from Leeds to Newquay, or in some years to Penzance. The buffer car was also open for most of the journey too. Leeds catering crews quite liked these long shifts, plenty of hours!

 

[Spartacus]

I reckon the only half decent bet would be something akin to a cross between the Scarborough Spa Express and the cruise ship specials that ran for a while, with no problem of possibly missing the boat due to something going wrong, one service a week from 'Northern/Midlands towns A, B, C' to 'Seaside resorts X, Y, Z', reservations only, and apart from the first one the stock would work holiday-makers back that it had worked down. Some sort of 'interesting' traction might encourage enthusiasts to make use of it either with families for a holiday or as a day trip out, further increasing patronage. The day out market might even be able to include some sort of Pullman style dining experience too. Weekly charters for a few weeks during the summer catering for holiday-makers, enthusiasts and diners certainly sounds more feasible than twice daily returns.

 

[cle]

Wires to Blackpool might make services there marginally more appealing for some - but as a Londoner, I've never met anyone who goes there. Was always a northern and Scots thing, and these days, only with irony. Newquay is a step up, but headed the "stags n slags" route too. Brighton is already very well served, but is a proper city as well as a resort.

I'm not sure if this is a solution for a previous era, looking for a problem in the current one. Maybe our Brexiteer/boomer generation will practice what they preach about Merrie Olde England and hit the shores again - but somehow I think despite the toxic, misguided nostalgia, they'll still be headed to Portugal and Spain.

 

[Parallel]

I’d like to see some of the GWR Weymouth trains started from elsewhere in an attempt to try and draw in further custom. For example, the Weymouth Wizard could start back from Cardiff Central instead of Bristol. Or some could start back from Reading or Oxford and run via either Melksham or Pewsey. The line is really heavily used in Summer but could probably attract even more custom!

 

[Warwick]

The other thing that people must realise is that the market for, say London and the home counties to Devon and Cornwall by rail has shrunk since the improvements to the road infrastructure. The A30 is now dual carriageway for almost it's entire length save for the bit between the A39 and A390 roundabouts and work has started on widening and re-routing for width on that. The bit between the St. Erth roundabout to the start of the Long Rock by-pass is still single and can't be widened but a 1960s plan for an entirely new road from the Hayle roundabout to link up with the Marazion roundabout on the A394 is being resurrected (the A394 from Marazion to the start of the by-pass is a wide single carriageway that has plenty of space for it to be dualled). There's another little bit of single between Camborne and Hayle but a bit of tweaking could ease that. The bottom line is that a door to door journey is no longer a journey than the train and in many cases much easier as my friends from Southwater near Horsham found out when they came to stay with me for the weekend. They left their home at 10.05 and were ringing my doorbell at 16.40 - and that was travelling on Friday. Their journey included a thirty five minute break. Later on - in July - I have some more people coming down from Hemel Hempstead - they'll be driving too.
Now have a look at Horsham to Penzance departing at 10.00 on a Friday on the National Rail website - and remember that Southwater is several miles from Horsham and my visitors - whilst not particularly old - are not in the first flush of their youth.

For leisure travel railways work very well on a point to point basis when the originating and destination is close to a station. Otherwise it's often easier - and cheaper - to drive nowadays. Not everyone has the ability to wade through what is often a bewildering set of fares with the fear of then getting on the wrong train and being either treated like a criminal or forced to pay again. It's symptomatic of the crazy fare structure when someone has to take to an enthusiast's website to enquire after what should be a simple Penzance to London to Penzance rail fare.
That's where and why the UK rail holiday traffic has gone.

 

[Harbornite]

I’d like to see some of the GWR Weymouth trains started from elsewhere in an attempt to try and draw in further custom. For example, the Weymouth Wizard could start back from Cardiff Central instead of Bristol. Or some could start back from Reading or Oxford and run via either Melksham or Pewsey. The line is really heavily used in Summer but could probably attract even more custom!

Speaking of Weymouth, I found it rather surprising (in a good way) that a DB 67 and some Blue/grey mk2s were chartered for a Bristol-Weymouth service last year.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47500...HoT-kCoZX4-XRF9pY-YWhYSe-XRF9Td-BQgj95-LyVKyq


Edit

Just found out it was used due to HSTs being used for services to Cardiff for the Champion's league final.

 

[43096]

Just found out it was used due to HSTs being used for services to Cardiff for the Champion's league final.

Given the current state of GWR weekend services, it is a very good thing that Cardiff is not hosting the Champions League Final this year.

 

[B&I]

There is no market. it is quicker to fly and cheaper to drive. How does a sleeper train help a family staying in a budget static caravan somewhere in Cornwall? How do they get to the site from the station? How do they get about when they are there?

BTW The sensible approach for your journey would be to fly to Newquay and hire a car staying in a hotel if required.

Thank you very much for telling me what the sensible approach was for me. Unfortunately it was outside the season for Liverpool-Newquay flights, the last Manchester flight would have left before I finished work in Truro, and I am medically disqualified from driving, so would have had to have paid through the nose for a taxi in any case. Please feel free to tell someone you know nothing about how to run their life in future.

Good to see as well that this forum's usual encouragement to people to do anything other than travel by train remains as fervent as ever

 

[Busaholic]

The other thing that people must realise is that the market for, say London and the home counties to Devon and Cornwall by rail has shrunk since the improvements to the road infrastructure. The A30 is now dual carriageway for almost it's entire length save for the bit between the A39 and A390 roundabouts and work has started on widening and re-routing for width on that. The bit between the St. Erth roundabout to the start of the Long Rock by-pass is still single and can't be widened but a 1960s plan for an entirely new road from the Hayle roundabout to link up with the Marazion roundabout on the A394 is being resurrected (the A394 from Marazion to the start of the by-pass is a wide single carriageway that has plenty of space for it to be dualled). There's another little bit of single between Camborne and Hayle but a bit of tweaking could ease that. The bottom line is that a door to door journey is no longer a journey than the train and in many cases much easier as my friends from Southwater near Horsham found out when they came to stay with me for the weekend. They left their home at 10.05 and were ringing my doorbell at 16.40 - and that was travelling on Friday. Their journey included a thirty five minute break. Later on - in July - I have some more people coming down from Hemel Hempstead - they'll be driving too.
Now have a look at Horsham to Penzance departing at 10.00 on a Friday on the National Rail website - and remember that Southwater is several miles from Horsham and my visitors - whilst not particularly old - are not in the first flush of their youth.

For leisure travel railways work very well on a point to point basis when the originating and destination is close to a station. Otherwise it's often easier - and cheaper - to drive nowadays. Not everyone has the ability to wade through what is often a bewildering set of fares with the fear of then getting on the wrong train and being either treated like a criminal or forced to pay again. It's symptomatic of the crazy fare structure when someone has to take to an enthusiast's website to enquire after what should be a simple Penzance to London to Penzance rail fare.
That's where and why the UK rail holiday traffic has gone.

Yes, I was making that fare enquiry for Penzance to London return on behalf of my wife, who's never driven. All my journeys to London over the last few years have been by car, which has worked out cheaper door to door on petrol v train and bus fares (Paddington being nowhere near my London destination) and given me extra precious hours in the capital. If two of us were travelling, the savings would be much greater, of course.

 

[DarloRich]

Thank you very much for telling me what the sensible approach was for me. Unfortunately it was outside the season for Liverpool-Newquay flights, the last Manchester flight would have left before I finished work in Truro, and I am medically disqualified from driving, so would have had to have paid through the nose for a taxi in any case. Please feel free to tell someone you know nothing about how to run their life in future.

Good to see as well that this forum's usual encouragement to people to do anything other than travel by train remains as fervent as ever

The point still remains - for the average person the journey you described is more suitable by air or car than train. The train is not always best ( hard as that may be for us to acknowledge) but it is good to see this forum's usual blindness to that fact remains as fervent as ever.

 

[B&I]

The point still remains - for the average person the journey you described is more suitable by air or car than train. The train is not always best ( hard as that may be for us to acknowledge) but it is good to see this forum's usual blindness to that fact remains as fervent as ever.

The point still remains that the car and / or the plane are not actually available, let alone better, for all users, regardless of your apparent assumptions otherwise. Though I appreciate that I am an odd case and my travel preferences alone won't dictate how rail services are provided.

More broadly, I would have thought that people interested in railways, and in particular people whi earn a living from working on them, might want to discuss ways in which rail services could be expanded, particularly with a view to attracting custom from less envrionmentally-friendly modes of transport. This strikes me as a much more interesting subject for debate than every thread becoming 'this is how things are, they will never change, so there', as it rather tends to do.

Also, on this specific point, if no-one wants to travel to the south west except by car or plane, why are there sleepers from Paddington ? Why can there not be similar services from the north, whose inhabitants might want to visit the same parts of the world ?

 

[43096]

Also, on this specific point, if no-one wants to travel to the south west except by car or plane, why are there sleepers from Paddington ? Why can there not be similar services from the north, whose inhabitants might want to visit the same parts of the world ?

Because there is not the demand. There used to be a Plymouth-Scotland sleeper but it was withdrawn through lack of use.

In fact, the Night Riviera from Paddington (as with all sleepers) is a borderline viable operation and has been threatened with withdrawal in the past.

 

[yorksrob]

Because there is not the demand. There used to be a Plymouth-Scotland sleeper but it was withdrawn through lack of use.

In fact, the Night Riviera from Paddington (as with all sleepers) is a borderline viable operation and has been threatened with withdrawal in the past.

Was it withdrawn through lack of use ? I'd heard it was one of the more lucrative sleeper services and was withdrawn because it didn't fit easily into any of the franchises at privatisation.

 

[43096]

Was it withdrawn through lack of use ? I'd heard it was one of the more lucrative sleeper services and was withdrawn because it didn't fit easily into any of the franchises at privatisation.

There is that as well - though if it was that lucrative someone would have operated it!

As I say, sleeper services are at best marginal financially. DB don’t think it is worth it in Germany, despite the longer distances involved. ÖBB clearly do think it is worthwhile however.

 

[Spartacus]

There is that as well - though if it was that lucrative someone would have operated it!

As I say, sleeper services are at best marginal financially. DB don’t think it is worth it in Germany, despite the longer distances involved. ÖBB clearly do think it is worthwhile however.

Wouldn't Cross Country have been an easy fit?

Pad to Penzance is one that barely requires a sleeper, having to have long stops to avoid punters arriving at their destinations at times when either nothing is open or they would still require a bed for the rest of the night

 

[AlterEgo]

Wouldn't Cross Country have been an easy fit?

Pad to Penzance is one that barely requires a sleeper, having to have long stops to avoid punters arriving at their destinations at times when either nothing is open or they would still require a bed for the rest of the night

Would have been an operational nightmare. It may also have been a disincentive to any bidder had they seen the requirement to operate a single sleeper service in the franchise spec.

I’m amazed the Night Riviera survives. As you say, it has to wait in places to ensure people can get a night’s sleep.

 

[Carlisle]

Was it withdrawn through lack of use ? I'd heard it was one of the more lucrative sleeper services and was withdrawn because it didn't fit easily into any of the franchises at privatisation.

Sounds about right, weren’t the anglo Scottish sleepers originally transferred to Scotrail in the hope of some funding from the Scottish office.?

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds about right, weren’t the anglo Scottish sleepers originally transferred to Scotrail in the hope of some funding from the Scottish office.?

Quite possibly. I always thought it strange that Scotrail ran them. I remember the outcry when they tried to stop them.

 

[RichmondCommu]

In a few years, thousands of very usable vehicles will be scrapped or sat in sidings rotting! While people cram on to inadequate trains!

I would have thought that Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool and Scarborough would be fairly easy to do for the new TPEX.

If only passengers and not profit were the focus!

Are there enough passengers though to make any new services viable? I'm not so sure that there are.

 

[cambsy]

I have used various Summer Saturday trains over the years, can remember doing Birmingham-Great Yarmouth trains with 31’s or 47’s via the Ely avoiding lines, Peaks on Birmingham-South West, non stop to Taunton etc, HST Birmingham-Newquay overnight stopping only Bristol-Plymouth-Par with 30 or so minutes at Bristol, was great when could enjoy so much variety, but in this day and age it just not going to happen, there is not the stock or financial case to run these sort of trains, holidaying habits have changed so much.

I know Virgin Cross Country tried running 67 hauled holidaymaker trains few years back, but found pathing awkward, and they would be overtaken by the normal service trains, were slower and lengthier journeys, so they stopped them after a couple of years, never did one though.

 

[Alex Smith]

As a regular visiter to Skegness I would like to see the following services implemented:

Yorks Lincs Seasider - York, Garforth, Cross Gates, Leeds, Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Sheffield, Worksop, Retford, Gainsborough Lea Road, Saxilby, Lincoln Central, Sleaford, Boston, Skegness

Jolly Fisherman - London St Pancras, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby, Loughborough, Nottingham, Sleaford, Boston, Skegness

Skegness Express - Birmingham New Street, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester, Nottingham, Sleaford, Boston, Skegness

The Poacherman - Crewe, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke-On-Trent, Longton, Blythe Bridge, Uttoxeter, Tutbury & Hatton, Derby, Long Eaton, Nottingham, Sleaford, Boston, Skegness

 

[Parallel]

Speaking of Weymouth, I found it rather surprising (in a good way) that a DB 67 and some Blue/grey mk2s were chartered for a Bristol-Weymouth service last year.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47500...HoT-kCoZX4-XRF9pY-YWhYSe-XRF9Td-BQgj95-LyVKyq


Edit

Just found out it was used due to HSTs being used for services to Cardiff for the Champion's league final.

Indeed, it worked the Weymouth Wizard (down in the morning, return in the evening) - I was lucky enough to be on it. Formed of 11 coaches with some varying interiors! It was advertised as a charter service on station departure boards.



Photos taken near the start of the journey, it did get busier as it went on.

 

[theironroad]

I'm sure that gwr have run a Saturday special hst during peak summer the last few years. Goes down to Weymouth from Bristol in morning, set berths in sidings during day and returns early evening.

 

[Warwick]

Would have been an operational nightmare. It may also have been a disincentive to any bidder had they seen the requirement to operate a single sleeper service in the franchise spec.

I’m amazed the Night Riviera survives. As you say, it has to wait in places to ensure people can get a night’s sleep.

I believe that the Riviera hangs around and travels (relatively) slowly to avoid arriving at it's destination at stupid o'clock.

 

[Parallel]

I'm sure that gwr have run a Saturday special hst during peak summer the last few years. Goes down to Weymouth from Bristol in morning, set berths in sidings during day and returns early evening.

Yes, they have sent a HST down to Weymouth on summer Saturday mornings. There were some occasions where crew weren’t available so it was replaced by a 158. Problem is it ran half an hour after an extremely heavily loaded 5-car DMU formation.

 

[7ftBroad]

Weymouth wizard from Swindon was running sometime in last few years. Running on a Sunday think the fare return from Swindon was 19 pounds. Service on a Saturday would do well, no worrying about getting connection at Bath onto overcrowded train and could be parked overnight at swindon for Sunday. Could leave at around 7pm from Weymouth into swindon for 9.30.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure that gwr have run a Saturday special hst during peak summer the last few years. Goes down to Weymouth from Bristol in morning, set berths in sidings during day and returns early evening.

Not anymore though. Back to DMUs this year.

 

[theironroad]

Not anymore though. Back to DMUs this year.

So it seems, maybe with all their other ongoing issues regarding crew shortages at weekends they reckon it's best not to timetable a a return train that they will probably be among the first to cancel. Maybe it just wasn't popular enough as after a 2.5 HR trip from Bristol , you'd only get about 5 hours on the beach before 2.5 hrs back. I'd have thought it'd be easier to go to Weston super mare.

 

[swt_passenger]

So it seems, maybe with all their other ongoing issues regarding crew shortages at weekends they reckon it's best not to timetable a a return train that they will probably be among the first to cancel. Maybe it just wasn't popular enough as after a 2.5 HR trip from Bristol , you'd only get about 5 hours on the beach before 2.5 hrs back. I'd have thought it'd be easier to go to Weston super mare.

Was it really a seaside special though, (ie an extra train in the timetable) or just a way of overcoming capacity issues which ought to be solved by the ongoing transfer of Turbos to Bristol area?