Ideas for seaside specials

[NorthernSpirit]

Judging by the "attractions" noted, the route of the train seems to be Bradford - Huddersfield - Picc Reverse (or Vic-Ordsall Chord - Picc) - Stockport - Stoke - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Worcester - Cheltenham - Bristol (Reverse) - Bath -Bradford - on -Avon - Westbury - Yeovil - Dorchester - Weymouth. I cannot see that journey taking less than 7 hours, even with available paths matching up.

The routing that I had in mind were Bradford to Marsden then down passing both Denton and Reddish South to Stockport. From Stockport the same route as Crosscountry to Bristol Parkway. From Parkway round the Bristol avoiding line between Lawrence Hill and Keynsham to Westbury. From Westbury straight down to Weymouth. The timing for that, worked out by using RTT, is circa 6 hours.

By avoiding Manchester and Bristol it does speed the service up which is why you'd put calls at Stockport, Bristol Parkway and at Bath so that people could change and board the BDI to WEY / WEY to BDI services.

The railway isn’t a charity - it’s a nice idea but it simply wouldn’t work. How are you going to fill that train?

You have various markets.

There's the tourist market, there's the business market and you've got the commuter market.

You combine all three together and you cater for all three. You could have someone in Halifax going for a job in Stoke if said service was to depart Halifax at 0558 arrive into Stoke at 0750 it would allow the commuter to arrive on time to work with an extra 70 minutes leeway should anything go tits up e.g signal failure, industrial action, etc. The same would apply to the average Weymouthian whose first train of the day is at 0553 Monday to Friday, what happens if they work on a Saturday and are required to be in work for 9am? They can't get there unless an early enough service was provided.

Tourist I've already covered and you've got business. To "fill that train" you double the usage up other than simply passenger, you run the service as a hybrid of both passenger & goods - so during the week why not take some light goods onboard to be transported along the route? It'd take some HGV's off the roads for starters - you've got Dorset Cereals in Poundbury, Anchor in Wesbury, Dobson's Sweets in Elland, Seabrook in Bradford and around a dozen of other manufacturers based along the route whose goods could be stuck onboard and offloaded enroute, so that's two jobs created for a start as you'd need a loader/unloader whose job it is to load the goods and to offload them at stations along the way where someone else (another set of jobs created) picks up the item(s) loads it into a van and distributes the goods in that area. So you run the service with a five car unit of which one coach has no seats, this is where goods can be placed during the week but at the weekend pushbikes, pushchairs and oversized luggage can be placed.

 

[AlterEgo]

The routing that I had in mind were Bradford to Marsden then down passing both Denton and Reddish South to Stockport. From Stockport the same route as Crosscountry to Bristol Parkway. From Parkway round the Bristol avoiding line between Lawrence Hill and Keynsham to Westbury. From Westbury straight down to Weymouth. The timing for that, worked out by using RTT, is circa 6 hours.

So we can be fairly sure with such a journey time that not many people are going to use the service end-to-end.

You have various markets.

There's the tourist market, there's the business market and you've got the commuter market.

You could have someone in Halifax going for a job in Stoke if said service was to depart Halifax at 0558 arrive into Stoke at 0750 it would allow the commuter to arrive on time to work with an extra 70 minutes leeway should anything go tits up e.g signal failure, industrial action, etc.

Yes, that popular commuter flow, Halifax to Stoke, taking about two hours and then they have to wait for an hour in a coffee shop before work if you’re on time...

The same would apply to the average Weymouthian whose first train of the day is at 0553 Monday to Friday, what happens if they work on a Saturday and are required to be in work for 9am? They can't get there unless an early enough service was provided.

How many people would this cover? A few?

Tourist I've already covered and you've got business. To "fill that train" you double the usage up other than simply passenger,

Okay, so at least you accept your train isn’t going to be very full...

you run the service as a hybrid of both passenger & goods - so during the week why not take some light goods onboard to be transported along the route?

How? There are a number of regulatory barriers meaning you cannot run a passenger train as a goods train and vice versus.

It'd take some HGV's off the roads for starters - you've got Dorset Cereals in Poundbury, Anchor in Wesbury, Dobson's Sweets in Elland, Seabrook in Bradford and around a dozen of other manufacturers based along the route whose goods could be stuck onboard and offloaded enroute, so that's two jobs created for a start as you'd need a loader/unloader whose job it is to load the goods and to offload them at stations along the way where someone else (another set of jobs created) picks up the item(s) loads it into a van and distributes the goods in that area.

Basically you’re hoping to fundamentally change the supply chain of medium to large businesses.

Assuming you hire the staff yourself, to create those four jobs you need a minimum of eight staff plus two vans. All the costs involved with that will probably top £300,000 a year, plus several thousand more to keep recruiting people as your employees have natural turnover.

So you run the service with a five car unit of which one coach has no seats, this is where goods can be placed during the week but at the weekend pushbikes, pushchairs and oversized luggage can be placed.

You can’t just stick goods in passenger coaches.

 

[al78]

You can’t just stick goods in passenger coaches.

No, but can't you replace one or two passenger coaches with coaches more suitable for transporting light freight if you can't fill a train with passengers? Doesn't the Caledonioan sleeper transport food products from Inverness?

 

[AlterEgo]

No, but can't you replace one or two passenger coaches with coaches more suitable for transporting light freight if you can't fill a train with passengers? Doesn't the Caledonioan sleeper transport food products from Inverness?

Wouldn't fit with the multiple unit operation the poster suggested - and even then we aren't touching the numerous technical and regulatory issues you would have in making empty passenger coaches into part-time goods cars.

Caledonian Sleeper explored this option when they had their (slightly bonkers) idea for the Wick sleeper, but remember they'd be using coaches already suitable and approved for use - the DBSO.

This further doesn't touch on the fact that the model proposed involved only goods travelling between Bradford and Weymouth rather than servicing a network like the old Red Star operation used to (btw, that should return in some form...).

 

[DarloRich]

A TOC or OAO could easily run a year round "city to coast" special, I and a few others have been looking at various solutions to whom could run a potential Bradford Interchange to Weymouth via Westbury service, we know that BR ran such a service in the past but was lost in the late 1980's.

Since privatisation, the main issue on trying to bring back such a service is down to finding a suitable TOC or OAO whose willing to run such a service, what paths are available and more importantly will it make money besides from the traditional "bucket and spade brigade". Could CrossCountry do it? Could Northern do it? Could West Midlands Railway do it? Could GWR do it? Could DRS be drafted in if two or more TOC want to do it? Might be something to take up with the local MP to see what they say.

So what about those who want to see the sights rather than sit on a litter strewn beach whist parents let their kids run amok?
There's Maiden Castle at Dorchester, Dorchester itself, Poundbury, Bratton Camp and the White Horse in Westbury, the Tithie Barn and Saxon Church in Bradford on Avon, the Royal Crescent, the Circus and other items of interest in the regency city of Bath, there's similar in Cheltenham, there's the Potteries, Marsden Moor, Castle Hill & Jubilee Tower near Huddersfield, Piece Hall and Shibden Hall in Halifax and Bronte Parsonage in Bradford. Then you've got those who'll go and visit the various boozers too, either way such a service will make profit even if its just four trains a day that are timed to benefit those at either end.

The routing that I had in mind were Bradford to Marsden then down passing both Denton and Reddish South to Stockport. From Stockport the same route as Crosscountry to Bristol Parkway. From Parkway round the Bristol avoiding line between Lawrence Hill and Keynsham to Westbury. From Westbury straight down to Weymouth. The timing for that, worked out by using RTT, is circa 6 hours.

By avoiding Manchester and Bristol it does speed the service up which is why you'd put calls at Stockport, Bristol Parkway and at Bath so that people could change and board the BDI to WEY / WEY to BDI services.




You have various markets.

There's the tourist market, there's the business market and you've got the commuter market.

You combine all three together and you cater for all three. You could have someone in Halifax going for a job in Stoke if said service was to depart Halifax at 0558 arrive into Stoke at 0750 it would allow the commuter to arrive on time to work with an extra 70 minutes leeway should anything go tits up e.g signal failure, industrial action, etc. The same would apply to the average Weymouthian whose first train of the day is at 0553 Monday to Friday, what happens if they work on a Saturday and are required to be in work for 9am? They can't get there unless an early enough service was provided.

Tourist I've already covered and you've got business. To "fill that train" you double the usage up other than simply passenger, you run the service as a hybrid of both passenger & goods - so during the week why not take some light goods onboard to be transported along the route? It'd take some HGV's off the roads for starters - you've got Dorset Cereals in Poundbury, Anchor in Wesbury, Dobson's Sweets in Elland, Seabrook in Bradford and around a dozen of other manufacturers based along the route whose goods could be stuck onboard and offloaded enroute, so that's two jobs created for a start as you'd need a loader/unloader whose job it is to load the goods and to offload them at stations along the way where someone else (another set of jobs created) picks up the item(s) loads it into a van and distributes the goods in that area. So you run the service with a five car unit of which one coach has no seats, this is where goods can be placed during the week but at the weekend pushbikes, pushchairs and oversized luggage can be placed.

last stop Fantasy Island.........................

 

[yoyothehobo]

Darlo, isnt fantasy island in Skegness? I really struggle to see how a through Weymouth to Bradford Interchange service would work with a through route on to Skegness. I just dont see the market.

 

[telstarbox]

Where do Bradford people go to the seaside now and why would they switch from there to Weymouth?

 

[telstarbox]

No, but can't you replace one or two passenger coaches with coaches more suitable for transporting light freight if you can't fill a train with passengers? Doesn't the Caledonioan sleeper transport food products from Inverness?

That's a small volume of high-value cargo (to London restaurants) which crisps and breakfast cereal aren't...

 

[Warwick]

Seaside specials to wet and miserable Bridlington or chav filled Blackpool? In your dreams. Run a company doing that and you'll be bankrupt in six months. Everyone who used to endure Britain's seaside towns now goes to the Costa Packet - or further. Photograph taken last September in St. Julians, Malta. All the working class want is guaranteed sunshine.

 

[PeterC]

You can’t just stick goods in passenger coaches.

The proposal was to remove seats. There would be no physical problem in loading roll cages through the twin leaf doors of a DMU or EMU with a ramp. Totally mad in economic terms but perfectly simple to do.

 

[AlterEgo]

The proposal was to remove seats. There would be no physical problem in loading roll cages through the twin leaf doors of a DMU or EMU with a ramp. Totally mad in economic terms but perfectly simple to do.

So you could do the modifications cheaply and quickly, and without ORR/RSSB approval, and without changes to insurance, etc?

It's not just "removing seats".

I very much doubt it is as easy as you think to convert a multiple unit carriage into what's essentially a goods wagon.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Bradford-Weymouth timings:
0710 Bradford, 0725 Halifax, 0754 Huddersfield, 0837 Barnsley, 0907 Sheffield, 0924 Chesterfield, 0954 Derby, 1112 Leamington, 1134 Banbury, 1202 Oxford, 1253 Basingstoke, 1328 Southampton, 1359 Bournemouth, 1413 Poole, 1450 Weymouth. Bypassing Birmingham and Reading.
To serve the market for 1 or 2 weeks summer hols at the seaside (obviously not for the day trip market over that distance).

Oh, sorry, I was looking at the wrong timetable, the 1978 one.

We caught that service on 2 Aug 1980, between Bradford and Sheffield, a 47/0 and 7x fairly grotty Mk1s. It wasn't that full as I remember.

 

[class26]

Darlo, isnt fantasy island in Skegness? I really struggle to see how a through Weymouth to Bradford Interchange service would work with a through route on to Skegness. I just dont see the market.

I think Darlo was referring to the fantasy element of the post rather than travelling to the actual fantasy island in glorious Skegness !

 

[yoyothehobo]

I think Darlo was referring to the fantasy element of the post rather than travelling to the actual fantasy island in glorious Skegness !

I think sarcasm is lost in writing sometimes...

 

[Eric]

The routing that I had in mind were Bradford to Marsden then down passing both Denton and Reddish South to Stockport. From Stockport the same route as Crosscountry to Bristol Parkway. From Parkway round the Bristol avoiding line between Lawrence Hill and Keynsham to Westbury. From Westbury straight down to Weymouth. The timing for that, worked out by using RTT, is circa 6 hours.

By avoiding Manchester and Bristol it does speed the service up which is why you'd put calls at Stockport, Bristol Parkway and at Bath so that people could change and board the BDI to WEY / WEY to BDI services.




You have various markets.

There's the tourist market, there's the business market and you've got the commuter market.

You combine all three together and you cater for all three. You could have someone in Halifax going for a job in Stoke if said service was to depart Halifax at 0558 arrive into Stoke at 0750 it would allow the commuter to arrive on time to work with an extra 70 minutes leeway should anything go tits up e.g signal failure, industrial action, etc. The same would apply to the average Weymouthian whose first train of the day is at 0553 Monday to Friday, what happens if they work on a Saturday and are required to be in work for 9am? They can't get there unless an early enough service was provided.

Tourist I've already covered and you've got business. To "fill that train" you double the usage up other than simply passenger, you run the service as a hybrid of both passenger & goods - so during the week why not take some light goods onboard to be transported along the route? It'd take some HGV's off the roads for starters - you've got Dorset Cereals in Poundbury, Anchor in Wesbury, Dobson's Sweets in Elland, Seabrook in Bradford and around a dozen of other manufacturers based along the route whose goods could be stuck onboard and offloaded enroute, so that's two jobs created for a start as you'd need a loader/unloader whose job it is to load the goods and to offload them at stations along the way where someone else (another set of jobs created) picks up the item(s) loads it into a van and distributes the goods in that area. So you run the service with a five car unit of which one coach has no seats, this is where goods can be placed during the week but at the weekend pushbikes, pushchairs and oversized luggage can be placed.

Let's hope this BDI- WEY train becomes reality, I know plenty of people in Bradford who would use a service.

 

[Spartacus]

Where do Bradford people go to the seaside now and why would they switch from there to Weymouth?

Blackpool, Scarborough, Brid, Karachi, the Gulf and the Med. I just wanna see it run through Bradford on Avon, there'd be loads getting off on the way back!

 

[Eric]

Where do Bradford people go to the seaside now and why would they switch from there to Weymouth?

Blackpool and Scarborough are still popular destinations but a lot more of my friends and family who use the train appear to be venturing further to the south coast and Cornwall.

 

[DarloRich]

I could just about understand an argument for strengthening trains on sunny days/bank holidays for day trips to seaside towns like Blackpool and Scarborough but that is about it!

Let's hope this BDI- WEY train becomes reality, I know plenty of people in Bradford who would use a service.

of course you do!

 

[yoyothehobo]

I am not going to lie. If I was going to go from Bradford to Weymouth, I would fly to Southampton and get a train to Weymouth, it would be a damn sight quicker.

 

[adrock1976]

I think sarcasm is lost in writing sometimes...

There is a famous saying in that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

 

[DarloRich]

I am not going to lie. If I was going to go from Bradford to Weymouth, I would fly to Southampton and get a train to Weymouth, it would be a damn sight quicker.

dependent upon price i agree!

The point missed is most people now go to the airport, board a plane and travel some where hot and foreign for their holidays rather than travel to some grotty UK seaside resort by train.

 

[B&I]

I have always wondered why only London has sleepers to the southwest.

Last year, I was supposed to travel from Liverpool to Truro with work. As I had no idea in advance how long I would need to be in Truro for, there was a risk I'd not be able to catch the last train which would get me home on the day (leaving before 4 pm from.memory), and that I'd need to take the sleeper each way. The total round trip would have taken over 36 hours via London.

Is there a market for sleepers for people from oop north who'd like to go to Devon and cornwall, but don't want to have to spend at least 2 days of their holiday getting there and back ? Could there be other similar markets, like south-west Wales ?

No doubt someone will respond to this by telling me people should just fly, and probably to sonewhere abroad, whuch always strikes me as a strange approach for a forum about British railways.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I once travelled back from Bournemouth to Wigan at short notice on a saturday. 12 hours before departure I booked a first class advance from bournemouth to Southampton Parkway, a flight from Southampton to Manchester and a train from MAN airport to Wigan, cheaper and an hour an a half quicker than the train!

 

[telstarbox]

I have always wondered why only London has sleepers to the southwest.

Last year, I was supposed to travel from Liverpool to Truro with work. As I had no idea in advance how long I would need to be in Truro for, there was a risk I'd not be able to catch the last train which would get me home on the day (leaving before 4 pm from.memory), and that I'd need to take the sleeper each way. The total round trip would have taken over 36 hours via London.

Is there a market for sleepers for people from oop north who'd like to go to Devon and cornwall, but don't want to have to spend at least 2 days of their holiday getting there and back ? Could there be other similar markets, like south-west Wales ?

No doubt someone will respond to this by telling me people should just fly, and probably to sonewhere abroad, whuch always strikes me as a strange approach for a forum about British railways.

Flybe operate flights between Manchester / Liverpool / Leeds Bradford and Newquay which suggests that there is a market between the two areas, but not one served well by rail. If the holiday crowd take caravans they'll also be hard to switch.

 

[nw1]

While I agree that two weeks in a fading resort doesn't sound fun, people do still go en masse to Cornwall, Devon, Dorset (the counties as a whole) etc - so I can see there may be a potential market for holidaymaker specials to these areas in general, rather than one resort. Same would apply for north Wales, the Lake District, and so on.

Big problem these days is that the railway tends to be so full of the 'regular' services that there's no room to put any additionals in, while in the 1980s (the last time I remember holiday specials) this was much less the case. However, theoretically, the government could give XC (for example) funds to invest in new stock to allow all their services to the West Country on summer Saturdays and school holidays to run as 12-coach trains. The same stock could then be used on Mondays to Fridays to ensure everyone on their trains boarding at Birmingham (for example) gets a seat in the rush hours...

 

[cactustwirly]

Where do Bradford people go to the seaside now and why would they switch from there to Weymouth?

Palma de Mallorca!
They won't, the Bradford - Weymouth idea is mad and very few people will make the journey.
Weymouth is very overrated as a seaside resort

 

[DarloRich]

Last year, I was supposed to travel from Liverpool to Truro with work. As I had no idea in advance how long I would need to be in Truro for, there was a risk I'd not be able to catch the last train which would get me home on the day (leaving before 4 pm from.memory), and that I'd need to take the sleeper each way. The total round trip would have taken over 36 hours via London.

Is there a market for sleepers for people from oop north who'd like to go to Devon and cornwall, but don't want to have to spend at least 2 days of their holiday getting there and back ? Could there be other similar markets, like south-west Wales ?

There is no market. it is quicker to fly and cheaper to drive. How does a sleeper train help a family staying in a budget static caravan somewhere in Cornwall? How do they get to the site from the station? How do they get about when they are there?

BTW The sensible approach for your journey would be to fly to Newquay and hire a car staying in a hotel if required.

No doubt someone will respond to this by telling me people should just fly, and probably to sonewhere abroad, whuch always strikes me as a strange approach for a forum about British railways.

The truth is hard for many posters here to deal with.

 

[johnnychips]

I do remember getting an overnight train from Donny to Plymouth on a Friday at the start of the school holidays in either 1983/4? and sharing a table with a nice couple and their son going to Newquay from, believe it or not, Bradford. It was quite full, and the Mk 1 seats were comfy. But I’ve no doubt today they’d be off to Spain with TUI or Ryanair, rather than Cross-Country prices, family railcard or not!

 

[DarloRich]

BTW - I am all for strengthening XC services to the SW and services to seaside towns during the high days and holidays. I just cant see a market for the old style holiday trains from ( insert grimy northern mill town) to (insert name of sunny seaside paradise) travelling via some railway jalopy of aged carriages and freight locos.

 

[johnnychips]

BTW - I am all for strengthening XC services to the SW and services to seaside towns during the high days and holidays. I just cant see a market for the old style holiday trains from ( insert grimy northern mill town) to (insert name of sunny seaside paradise) travelling via some railway jalopy of aged carriages and freight locos.

Though of course in an accountancy-driven railway (even if stock were available), a balance has to be struck between the cost of providing such a service and the probable loss of revenue of letting people travel on overcrowded sprinters and p***ing them off so much they desert the train in future.