Ideas for seaside specials

[Masbroughlad]

In years gone by, when Saturdays saw trains to the seaside resorts from all over the country, this was much easier under BR.

Newcastle, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Derby and other large conurbations, to the likes of Scarborough, Yarmouth, Skeggy, Blackpool, Wales etc.

If similar train services were ever to be resurrected, who would/could run them?

For example:

Leeds to Great Yarmouth. Northern, EMT, VTEC or Anglia?

Glasgow to Scarborough. Scotrail, VTEC, XC, TPEX etc

Or would they have to be OAOs?

Did such trains stop in 1996 with the break up of BR?

 

[nottsnurse]

Surely Leeds to Great Yarmouth would be a natural fit for EMT?

Doubt they'll happen again though.

 

[cactustwirly]

I really doubt that it would be financially viable.
The routes are very seasonal, and most people holiday abroad these days.
Most of the traffic is local day trippers, when the weather's nice, maybe people on the odd weekend break as well

I imagine the services ceased between the mid nineties & mid noughties, when the LCCs gained popularity.

 

[randyrippley]

Surely such services were lost mainly due to the replacement of old "go anywhere" MkI stock and first gen DMUs with Pacers / Sprinters etc, which were only every cleared on a route-by-route basis as required.
Made it impossible to send trains out of area on occasional services.
And of course there isn't the pool of spare stock available now anyway: there'd be nothing to run the services with.

 

[Masbroughlad]

In a few years, thousands of very usable vehicles will be scrapped or sat in sidings rotting! While people cram on to inadequate trains!

I would have thought that Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool and Scarborough would be fairly easy to do for the new TPEX.

If only passengers and not profit were the focus!

 

[Deepgreen]

Very pertinent today with BBC News reporting chaos at Gatwick owing to rail replacement buses being wholly inadequate. Who would have thought that a Bank Holiday weekend would be busy on the Brighton line?! Engineering works seemingly can't even be done properly during the day, so who considers that Network Rail's 24-hour running pipe dream will be workable?

 

[Dr Hoo]

In years gone by, when Saturdays saw trains to the seaside resorts from all over the country, this was much easier under BR.

Newcastle, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Derby and other large conurbations, to the likes of Scarborough, Yarmouth, Skeggy, Blackpool, Wales etc.

If similar train services were ever to be resurrected, who would/could run them?

For example:

Leeds to Great Yarmouth. Northern, EMT, VTEC or Anglia?

Glasgow to Scarborough. Scotrail, VTEC, XC, TPEX etc

Or would they have to be OAOs?

Did such trains stop in 1996 with the break up of BR?

The number of such trains had been falling ever since the rise of car ownership and they had largely finished quite a few years before the end of BR (other than some that fitted within a single profit centre such as Paddington-Newquay).
Sectorisation was probably the biggest nail in the coffin.

 

[Deepgreen]

In a few years, thousands of very usable vehicles will be scrapped or sat in sidings rotting! While people cram on to inadequate trains!

I would have thought that Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool and Scarborough would be fairly easy to do for the new TPEX.

If only passengers and not profit were the focus!

It matters not how much redundant stock is available, it only pays TOCs to keep the bare minimum to hand, so to hell with rail flexibility to meet infrequent, but very predictable, peaks in demand!

 

[yorksrob]

Very pertinent today with BBC News reporting chaos at Gatwick owing to rail replacement buses being wholly inadequate. Who would have thought that a Bank Holiday weekend would be busy on the Brighton line?! Engineering works seemingly can't even be done properly during the day, so who considers that Network Rail's 24-hour running pipe dream will be workable?

I suppose they've given up running a few twelve carriage crowd busters to Brighton via Dorking and Littlehampton then.

 

[colchesterken]

aaaahh The good old days. Fast trains to Southend, St Pancras start, round the GOBLIN to Woodgrange park, 2-6-4 steamer stops for a drink of water them fast to Benfleet and all stations to Southend
Day on the beach, If I had been a good boy short while at the Kursall not too long as dad did not have much money, fish and chips dinner, stay for the lights,
Anyone remember Southend lights not far behind Blackpool, Now all gone,,,shame

 

[CC 72100]

In a few years, thousands of very usable vehicles will be scrapped or sat in sidings rotting! While people cram on to inadequate trains!

I would have thought that Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool and Scarborough would be fairly easy to do for the new TPEX.

If only passengers and not profit were the focus!

How much extra do you want to pay on your ticket for everyday journeys so that enough stock and crew can be maintained and their knowledge of this kept up to date to enable these services to run?

Also as others have said, this isn't the 1980s anymore of people going to the seaside for a week - now it is local flows (ie. 50 mile /90 minute radius) that provide the big increase in passengers going to the seaside on the 6 sunny weekend days we get a year.

 

[unlevel42]

EMT have a St Pancras (Derby) Sheffield Scarborough service on Summer Saturdays

 

[route:oxford]

I would have thought that Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool and Scarborough would be fairly easy to do for the new TPEX.

If only passengers and not profit were the focus!

Seriously, you think that people from Edinburgh and Glasgow would want to trek all the way down to Blackpool or Scarborough for a day trip to the beach?

Scotrail provides perfectly adequate services to Prestwick, Ayr, Saltcoats, Girvan, Irvine and more.

Over on the other side, there's Silver Sands at Aberdour, BurntIsland, Kinghorn. Further North there's Montrose & Arbroath.

The only way they could possibly make access to beaches by rail better would be to reopen the route to St Andrews and Lossiemouth.

 

[furnessvale]

Seriously, you think that people from Edinburgh and Glasgow would want to trek all the way down to Blackpool or Scarborough for a day trip to the beach?

Scotrail provides perfectly adequate services to Prestwick, Ayr, Saltcoats, Girvan, Irvine and more.

Over on the other side, there's Silver Sands at Aberdour, BurntIsland, Kinghorn. Further North there's Montrose & Arbroath.

The only way they could possibly make access to beaches by rail better would be to reopen the route to St Andrews and Lossiemouth.

Happy days watching the summer Saturday Blackpool to Scotland extras pass through Preston twice.

Second point, Scotrail may provide adequate services, but do Prestwick, Ayr etc match up to the delights of Blackpool?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Re todays issues with he Brighton line - I am advised that a n onsla

I suppose they've given up running a few twelve carriage crowd busters to Brighton via Dorking and Littlehampton then.

I am advised that certain things have been done with 12 / 10 car extras via Horsham and West Croydon.....

 

[yorksrob]

Re todays issues with he Brighton line - I am advised that a n onsla


I am advised that certain things have been done with 12 / 10 car extras via Horsham and West Croydon.....

That's certainly an improvement over the last time then. It's so frustrating to see a good diversionary route go to waste !

 

[Kneedown]

EMT have a St Pancras (Derby) Sheffield Scarborough service on Summer Saturdays

Not forgetting the "Jolly Fisherman" on Summer Saturdays and Bank Holidays. Derby to Skegvegas with quality HST traction!

 

[neilmc]

There used to be spare rakes of Mark 1 stock hanging around the system, with non-heat freight locos or even elderly steam commandeered in to run these specials. And there were lots of them - from Leeds alone we had Blackpool, Scarborough, Bridlington, a S&C duplicate to Carlisle and possibly Morecambe.

Strangely enough the fares were much cheaper than today despite all this "inefficient" use of resources.

 

[diffident]

Surely the good old "bucket and spade" services could be operated by the spot hire operators like West Coast Railways?? Considering summer seaside services are not regular, and thus essentially ad-hoc, this would be an area that could be exploited??

 

[Ianigsy]

I feel fairly sure that bank holiday weekends remain the only time you can usually see six car formations on the New Brighton line (usually identifiable on Monday morning by the little piles of sand in the corners of the carriage).

It's not just railway, though -I've been walking above Ilkley this afternoon, glorious weather but no public transport to the Cow and Calf rocks because the bus is Monday to Saturday only. Tomorrow Skipton market will be on, but no direct bus from Leeds for the same reason, although when it did run through, double deckers left Skipton full and standing.

 

[AM9]

Surely the good old "bucket and spade" services could be operated by the spot hire operators like West Coast Railways?? Considering summer seaside services are not regular, and thus essentially ad-hoc, this would be an area that could be exploited??

Knowing the vagaries of the british weather and the fickle wants of the british travelling public, it wouldbe a major commercial risk for a leisure operator like WCR to promise a seaside trip other than one that was of special appeal to rail enthusiasts.

 

[dk1]

Those days in relation to Great Yarmouth are long gone. I grew up with Vauxhall station being home to a class 03 pilot & a procession of trains arriving/departing on Summer Saturdays bringing them in for their weekly or fortnightly annual holidays from London but mainly from the Nottinghamshire/Yorkshire/North East coalfield areas. Not only have they also almost disappeared but so have such long holidays. Yarmouth now mainly serves the short break market & many Monday & Friday peak summer extras from Norwich are as busy as those on the Saturday. The book the Regional Railway Story highlights the sheer financial folly that many of these long distance services ran under. We will sadly never see the likes of these interesting workings again. I'm glad I caught the latter days of them though.

 

[47802]

I seem to recall that quite a lot of them mentioned were not particularly well used by the end probably more enthusiasts than Holiday Travellers.

 

[theironroad]

Seriously, you think that people from Edinburgh and Glasgow would want to trek all the way down to Blackpool or Scarborough for a day trip to the beach?

Scotrail provides perfectly adequate services to Prestwick, Ayr, Saltcoats, Girvan, Irvine and more.

Over on the other side, there's Silver Sands at Aberdour, BurntIsland, Kinghorn. Further North there's Montrose & Arbroath.

The only way they could possibly make access to beaches by rail better would be to reopen the route to St Andrews and Lossiemouth.

Just as long as they don't all head for Luskentyre on Harris though bit of a hike for a day trip.....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think a daily:

London Paddington
Reading
Westbury
Taunton
Tiverton Parkway
Exeter St Davids
Exeter Central
Exmouth

service could possibly be successful?

 

[davehsug]

As a young teenager, I used to be taken on the mystery trips run fro Stoke on a Sunday during the early 70s. I remember trips to Paignton, Scarborough, Bridlington, Clacton & Weston! Of course those days are gone, but they made interesting trips for a young train lover.
Also given the large number of Scots who still holiday in Blackpool, and the many Scottish residents there, I would have thought a Blackpool to Glasgow service would be well used.

 

[tbtc]

RTT would take all of the fun out of the "mystery trips" if they ran today

In a few years, thousands of very usable vehicles will be scrapped or sat in sidings rotting! While people cram on to inadequate trains!

I would have thought that Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool and Scarborough would be fairly easy to do for the new TPEX.

Glasgow to Blackpool (down on a Friday afternoon, back on a Sunday afternoon) ought to be in the TPE franchise. You'd make a fortune if the catering trolley flogged bottles of "after-sun" to Glaswegians exposed to a couple of days on the beach

But a lot of the "thousands of very usable vehicles" scrapped or sat rotting in sidings are either going to be 1980s Pacers or 1980s commuter EMUs (317s, 319s, 321s etc), which won't be much use for a lot of the "seaside" destinations.

A few HSTs from the 1970s, sure, but "lots of vehicles scrapped" =/= "lots of vehicles suitable for seaside specials scrapped".

Very pertinent today with BBC News reporting chaos at Gatwick owing to rail replacement buses being wholly inadequate. Who would have thought that a Bank Holiday weekend would be busy on the Brighton line?! Engineering works seemingly can't even be done properly during the day, so who considers that Network Rail's 24-hour running pipe dream will be workable?

Would you have done it at lunchtime midweek then?

A Bank Holiday offers significantly longer than a few overnight possessions (given how long it takes to set up/ clear up) - there's no easy time to do this - at least disrupting leisure passengers at Gatwick or heading to the beach at Brighton doesn't disrupt your regular passengers quite so much.

The BBC story is more about not putting on sufficient replacement buses, rather than it being a terrible time to do the engineering.

EMT have a St Pancras (Derby) Sheffield Scarborough service on Summer Saturdays

Not forgetting the "Jolly Fisherman" on Summer Saturdays and Bank Holidays. Derby to Skegvegas with quality HST traction!

True - Stagecoach are good at these schemes (see also "seven coach 222s to Liverpool on Grand National weekend" and "HSTs to Lincoln Christmas market"), credit where its due.

That's certainly an improvement over the last time then. It's so frustrating to see a good diversionary route go to waste !

Even when we do have routes you could potentially use as diversions, it's too much hassle to do so (e.g. the complication of finding spare paths in amongst the regular service on that line), yet people still want to suggest fantasy schemes spending hundreds of millions of pounds on the basis of "it'd be a useful diversionary route a couple of weekends a year when the normal line is closed"...

Thought I'd better mention hat.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If only passengers and not profit were the focus!

A TOC or OAO could easily run a year round "city to coast" special, I and a few others have been looking at various solutions to whom could run a potential Bradford Interchange to Weymouth via Westbury service, we know that BR ran such a service in the past but was lost in the late 1980's.

Since privatisation, the main issue on trying to bring back such a service is down to finding a suitable TOC or OAO whose willing to run such a service, what paths are available and more importantly will it make money besides from the traditional "bucket and spade brigade". Could CrossCountry do it? Could Northern do it? Could West Midlands Railway do it? Could GWR do it? Could DRS be drafted in if two or more TOC want to do it? Might be something to take up with the local MP to see what they say.

So what about those who want to see the sights rather than sit on a litter strewn beach whist parents let their kids run amok?
There's Maiden Castle at Dorchester, Dorchester itself, Poundbury, Bratton Camp and the White Horse in Westbury, the Tithie Barn and Saxon Church in Bradford on Avon, the Royal Crescent, the Circus and other items of interest in the regency city of Bath, there's similar in Cheltenham, there's the Potteries, Marsden Moor, Castle Hill & Jubilee Tower near Huddersfield, Piece Hall and Shibden Hall in Halifax and Bronte Parsonage in Bradford. Then you've got those who'll go and visit the various boozers too, either way such a service will make profit even if its just four trains a day that are timed to benefit those at either end.

 

[yorksrob]

Even when we do have routes you could potentially use as diversions, it's too much hassle to do so (e.g. the complication of finding spare paths in amongst the regular service on that line), yet people still want to suggest fantasy schemes spending hundreds of millions of pounds on the basis of "it'd be a useful diversionary route a couple of weekends a year when the normal line is closed"...

Thought I'd better mention hat.

But the route in question has been used as a diversionary route (eventually).

The route in question is operated by the same company, uses the same traction and has a notable reduction in services on the weekend. There is no good reason why the TOC failed to plan those diversions from the start. We shouldn't adopt companies failure to step up to the mark as an excuse to reinforce bad decisions about the network.

Just a thought, if South Eastern can arrange diversions as a matter of routine, how come Southern can't (or rather doesn't seem to want to) ?

 

[Argyle_mikey]

Southern could start by taking some 4 car 171’s away from Uckfield on busy bank holidays and putting them on the Ashford International to wherever-it’s-terminating-this-week route.

There’s the big Jack in the Green event in Hastings today, half of south east London (I exaggerate for effect) is heading to Camber Sands - and I’ve just seen a 2 car unit going by. That’ll be fun on the hottest day of the year. Maybe they have some 4 car units planned for later on ?