Ideas for seaside specials

[Silver Cobra]

EMT run Derby and Nottingham to Skegness and return on Summer Saturday mornings for holidaymakers, and the end of May and August Bank Holiday Mondays an out and back for daytrippers that sits in Skegness for about 7hrs. As shown in my attached pic!

I used that service for the first time last year on a daytrip to Skegness (boarding at Sleaford). Made the journey far more enjoyable than the normal 156/158, which can be pretty rammed at times (add in the bonus of declassified first class as well).

It's a pain that changes to VTEC's timetable this year mean it's harder for me to connect onto this service at Sleaford now, but I'll try to do it one way or another again this summer.

Here's a pic of the HST at Skegness on what was a very warm and sunny day.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

To clarify, you're suggesting a 4 train per day, year round direct service from Bradford interchange to Weymouth????

Yes, two from Bradford and two from Weymouth. So your two morning departures from Bradford are your two returns from Weymouth, the two morning departures from Weymouth are the two returns from Bradford = 4 trains a day.

 

[DarloRich]

More warming spottery nostalgia for the good old days. Those days are gone and are not coming back. They weren't that good anyway

 

[Deafdoggie]

The funny thing is, give it thirty years, and what we do now will be fondly remembered. "Do you remember the XC voyagers, bring them back, so much better than what we have now! I remember when you could reserve a seat 10 minutes before you got on!"

 

[ChiefPlanner]

More warming spottery nostalgia for the good old days. Those days are gone and are not coming back. They weren't that good anyway

Particularly when my Paignton - Cardiff with a class 52 on it failed at Exeter West , and had to be hauled in by a 46 nicked off a cement train. Very late home that night.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Odd then that nobody wishes to run such a service ...

To run a service you need paths and stock do you not?

 

[cactustwirly]

To run a service you need paths and stock do you not?

If the demand was as great as claimed (which I seriously doubt) then the OAOs would have found a way...

 

[6Gman]

If the demand was as great as claimed (which I seriously doubt) then the OAOs would have found a way...

Quite.

 

[6Gman]

That one bugged me for quite a while too whenever it appeared on New Street's flapper board, looking in the index of my dads road atlas didn't help either.

Railway folk of a certain age will remember Rose Grove as one of the last three steam depots on British Rail*.


(Well, four if you include Aberystwyth VOR.)

 

[30907]

Railway folk of a certain age will remember Rose Grove as one of the last three steam depots on British Rail*.


(Well, four if you include Aberystwyth VOR.)

More practically, it would be the last place you could run a full length train to beyond Blackburn, once the Colne branch has been singled (and run round it) - further East, and you'd be in the Eastern Region/Yorkshire.

 

[Antman]

Like button please!

Or you could try reading the proposal before making such daft comments?

 

[Antman]

Yes, two from Bradford and two from Weymouth. So your two morning departures from Bradford are your two returns from Weymouth, the two morning departures from Weymouth are the two returns from Bradford = 4 trains a day.

Your idea made perfect sense to me.

 

[Bookd]

An old book, which I can't lay my hands on just now, ' The Day of The Holiday Express' gave details of all trains running in the Western Region over a bank holiday in the sixties.
There were numerous relief trains, specials and excursions; many would be formed of coaches which were only used a few times each year and probably not maintained to a standard which would be accepted now, and hauled by elderly steam locomotives.
There were fewer single line sections pre-Beeching which would help and as they seemed to have enough staff route knowledge may have been wider (or less restrictive).
Paths for trains have of course always been a feature and whilst I have never done it professionally I used to know in theory how to work them out on graph paper! It seems however that while now the number of paths is largely set in stone the book suggests that in those days an infinite number of trains would be thrown from box to box and the signaller left to sort them out. This would cause inevitable problems and I seem to recall mention of one service from Weymouth to somewhere like Wolverhampton which always ended up several hours late by the time it had been blocked at every junction on the way.
None of this would work today.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The experiences of the holiday hungry folk in the early 1950's -with horrendous journeys in sometimes non corridor special trains , particularly to Glorious Devon and the Cornish Riviera - despite good efforts by all staff ensured the (a) purchase of a family car - which transferred the problems to the roads (b) encouraged (later) the ideals of Spanish and Med holidays ...

Realistically - we do not live in the late 1940's - with the "baggage" of the 2 week holiday and all that it entailed. Society has moved on.

 

[theironroad]

Realistically - we do not live in the late 1940's - with the "baggage" of the 2 week holiday and all that it entailed. Society has moved on.

Unfortunately, there are some people in society at large, not just railways, who would like society to move backwards to the 'good old days'.

 

[Antman]

The experiences of the holiday hungry folk in the early 1950's -with horrendous journeys in sometimes non corridor special trains , particularly to Glorious Devon and the Cornish Riviera - despite good efforts by all staff ensured the (a) purchase of a family car - which transferred the problems to the roads (b) encouraged (later) the ideals of Spanish and Med holidays ...

Realistically - we do not live in the late 1940's - with the "baggage" of the 2 week holiday and all that it entailed. Society has moved on.

Obviously society has indeed moved on but it doesn't necessarily mean everything suggested on here should be dismissed out of hand.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Obviously society has indeed moved on but it doesn't necessarily mean everything suggested on here should be dismissed out of hand.

I don't think that was meant , however the mass numbers of the past have certainly gone away - when the SR and BR(S) used to strip the London area berthing sidings for numerous specials to the likes of Ramsgate and Brighton , using in many cases suburban rolling stock.

There have been some excellent (modest) initiatives in the last decade - the St Ives high capacity service being one - a few more ideas like that , where appropriate , might be an option if any can be thought of and implemented for a modest cost which covers OPEX etc.

 

[theironroad]

Obviously society has indeed moved on but it doesn't necessarily mean everything suggested on here should be dismissed out of hand.

....but it's useful if they are realistic to people's modern habits. There's a big difference between running Bradford to Weymouth trains twice a day all year round to running a couple of Saturday specials from Waterloo calling at Clapham jn, Surbiton and then fast to Bournemouth. Same vv. That would be useful for daytrippers and relieve the huge pressure on morning southbound and evening northbound services that exists now when there is good weather.

 

[underbank]

If the demand was as great as claimed (which I seriously doubt) then the OAOs would have found a way...

As any decent entreprenneur/economist knows, there are two types of market/business, being demand pull and innovative push. Demand pull is where the customers want something. Innovative push is where the entreprenneur creates a product/service that the customer didn't know they wanted. The latter is usually far more profitable and popular but requires imagination, innovation and good marketing. The former is for the lazy business.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

....but it's useful if they are realistic to people's modern habits. There's a big difference between running Bradford to Weymouth trains twice a day all year round to running a couple of Saturday specials from Waterloo calling at Clapham jn, Surbiton and then fast to Bournemouth. Same vv. That would be useful for daytrippers and relieve the huge pressure on morning southbound and evening northbound services that exists now when there is good weather.

A bit like cross-working on the Southern , where stock from Wimbledon Park would be diagrammed for seaside specials via Epsom and onto the Central Division Sussex Coast , calling at key suburban stations , and giving attractive and alternative locations to normal , daily services. Quite affordable too , and an easy enough day out for the crews - who often just worked one leg each , berthed the stock and came home passenger.

 

[DarloRich]

Blackpool proudly boasts it has more holiday beds than Portugal.

It is also a cheapo stag and hen chavvy dump. It needs tarting up a great deal.

However, most people no longer do Saturday-Saturday, so you are looking at day-trippers if you run extra trains, which is why the travel demand is less. Having spent this weekend at various seasides (on day-trips) I can tell you, they are as popular as ever! But would they have been if the weather had been wet and cold?

No one in their right mind would go on holiday to Blackpool or Skeggy for a week these days. The cost is huge compared with what that money buys you. Cheap air travel opens up so many more options and a wider horizon than a grotty week in a sad, gray B&B or static caravan in some tired, faded, seaside town. 2018 is a very different world to 1953.

I'd love the seaside specials to come back, but we have to be realistic and there is a very limited business case for them

The day trip market is about the only possibility and that is going to be highly volatile. This bank holiday was glorious. How often does that happen?

 

[Antman]

It is also a cheapo stag and hen chavvy dump. It needs tarting up a great deal.



No one in their right mind would go on holiday to Blackpool or Skeggy for a week these days. The cost is huge compared with what that money buys you. Cheap air travel opens up so many more options and a wider horizon than a grotty week in a sad, gray B&B or static caravan in some tired, faded, seaside town. 2018 is a very different world to 1953.



The day trip market is about the only possibility and that is going to be highly volatile. This bank holiday was glorious. How often does that happen?

Not quite a week but some friends spent the bank holiday weekend in Skeggy, obviously they're not in their right minds!

 

[DarloRich]

Not quite a week but some friends spent the bank holiday weekend in Skeggy, obviously they're not in their right minds!

A weekend is one thing. A week............................

(personally i would have just flown to Europe and explored somewhere interesting)

 

[Antman]

A weekend is one thing. A week............................

(personally i would have just flown to Europe and explored somewhere interesting)

It was a long weekend, 5 days in total and they had a great time although obviously the nice weather helped.

 

[xc170]

I hope so, I'm on traction refresh tomorrow for it! It's the same times as last year but starting at Nottingham.

Oh no, that's ruined it for me, I usually bash it from Derby so I can pick a decent seat, seeing how busy it gets at Nottingham I'm not sure I'll bother this year!

 

[InOban]

Well with Derby station effectively out of use for resignalling, it couldn't start from there, could it?

 

[ashworth]

There used to be spare rakes of Mark 1 stock hanging around the system, with non-heat freight locos or even elderly steam commandeered in to run these specials. And there were lots of them - from Leeds alone we had Blackpool, Scarborough, Bridlington, a S&C duplicate to Carlisle and possibly Morecambe.

Strangely enough the fares were much cheaper than today despite all this "inefficient" use of resources.

Even if there was the spare stock to run these services, I think the price of fares for day excursions to the seaside are in some parts of the country extremely high these days.
If you look at the some of the traditional seaside destinations from some of the large northern cities, fares are unbelievably high for a day out in comparison to fares from London to the seaside.

For example the cheapest walk up fares:
Leeds to Scarborough - £29.90 OPR
Sheffield to Scarborough - £48.70 OPR
Leeds to Bridlington - £36.80 OPR
Sheffield to Bridlington - £29.40 OPDR
Nottingham to Skegness - £24.90 OPDR

Then compare London to Brighton at £12.20 or London to Southend at £13.40 where Super Off Peak Day Returns are available.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Your idea made perfect sense to me.

Thank you.

The other thing that some others on here haven't accounted for is that not everyone works Monday to Friday 9 'til 5, some work 6-2, 2-10, 10-6 some may work other random hours which may include some weekends. The idea of a four trains a day, seven days a week year round Bradford to Weymouth service would at least allow those who do work weekends the same benefits as those who work Monday to Friday.

As any decent entreprenneur/economist knows, there are two types of market/business, being demand pull and innovative push. Demand pull is where the customers want something. Innovative push is where the entreprenneur creates a product/service that the customer didn't know they wanted. The latter is usually far more profitable and popular but requires imagination, innovation and good marketing. The former is for the lazy business.

Without innovation we don't progress.

As I've mentioned earlier on in the thread me and a few others have been looking at ways on how a TOC or OAO could run something from BDI to WEY, there's bound to be a market along the route other than relying on the "bucket and spade brigade" as I've mentioned that not everyone wants to go to the coast but as an alternative there's other tourist attractions along the route. The other thing that new services provide is jobs not only on the railway but also along the route itself, its about catering across the entire spectrum.

Its a shame that others don't see this but instead would rather ridicule an idea that has potential whether in theory or in practice.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you.

The other thing that some others on here haven't accounted for is that not everyone works Monday to Friday 9 'til 5, some work 6-2, 2-10, 10-6 some may work other random hours which may include some weekends. The idea of a four trains a day, seven days a week year round Bradford to Weymouth service would at least allow those who do work weekends the same benefits as those who work Monday to Friday.

The railway isn’t a charity - it’s a nice idea but it simply wouldn’t work. How are you going to fill that train?

Without innovation we don't progress.

Running a seaside special circa 1970s is neither innovation nor progress. It’s bringing back something that was barely viable even 40 years ago.

As I've mentioned earlier on in the thread me and a few others have been looking at ways on how a TOC or OAO could run something from BDI to WEY, there's bound to be a market along the route other than relying on the "bucket and spade brigade"

No there isn’t “bound to be a market”, you need to find it. This isn’t how businesses work. Which market? You tell us.

The other thing that new services provide is jobs not only on the railway but also along the route itself, its about catering across the entire spectrum.

Its a shame that others don't see this but instead would rather ridicule an idea that has potential whether in theory or in practice.

It has no potential - or at least, you haven’t shown it has. You can’t just say “well there’s bound to be a market”. This ticks all the boxes with a crayon:

1) Links secondary destinations not served by direct trains (for good reason)
2) Roudabout route
3) Open access mentioned
4) No business case specified
5) Strong whiff of nostalgia in reviving a dead concept

 

[yoyothehobo]

The railway isn’t a charity - it’s a nice idea but it simply wouldn’t work. How are you going to fill that train?



Running a seaside special circa 1970s is neither innovation nor progress. It’s bringing back something that was barely viable even 40 years ago.



No there isn’t “bound to be a market”, you need to find it. This isn’t how businesses work. Which market? You tell us.



It has no potential - or at least, you haven’t shown it has. You can’t just say “well there’s bound to be a market”. This ticks all the boxes with a crayon:

1) Links secondary destinations not served by direct trains (for good reason)
2) Roudabout route
3) Open access mentioned
4) No business case specified
5) Strong whiff of nostalgia in reviving a dead concept

I don't know. You could always use a couple of 142s on it. Or really for enthusiasts, 3 sets of 142s, joined together with a 37 top and tailing it for no apparent reason to fill the untapped Bradford to Weymouth demand.

Judging by the "attractions" noted, the route of the train seems to be Bradford - Huddersfield - Picc Reverse (or Vic-Ordsall Chord - Picc) - Stockport - Stoke - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Worcester - Cheltenham - Bristol (Reverse) - Bath -Bradford - on -Avon - Westbury - Yeovil - Dorchester - Weymouth. I cannot see that journey taking less than 7 hours, even with available paths matching up.

You might as well just go to Leeds, get a train to Bristol and get one from there to Weymouth. Manchester users can get a train to London then to Weymouth quicker, get to Bristol with a change at Birmingham. In essence the entire idea of this route would be that it picks up the massive untapped demand in Bradford and Huddersfield, that would like a slow journey to Weymouth without changing.

Say that you have 200 people on a voyager (something likely to run this sort of route) are you telling me that 400 people everyday from Bradford and Huddersfield all year round want to go to Weymouth?

I am sure it would be very lovely behind some heritage loco as a railtour one day, however the slow train, with many stops at small places, just becomes slower and less attractive and if I was spending 7 hours travelling somewhere, I would want to be a lot further south than Weymouth.