Idea only: 'Railpriority' at London Euston

[Bletchleyite]

Except that there are different layouts to different platforms. How wide are the ramps? How wide would each "lane" be?

And how would you manage boarding two or three trains at once from each ramp? This happens all the time, it's not an exception.

(I think VT staff secretly dislike LNR services because the latter don't do barrier checks other than on 8-11 and very occasional random stings by the RPI team - so they have to leave the gate open on another platform on the same ramp, and some people are wise to the fact that it's all one area and they can just go through on the LNR side and walk across )

 

[6Gman]

But if you're getting priority somebody else must be getting an inferior service.

Why should they?

They've paid their fare!

You haven't explained why somebody else should get a worse service? Why not just let everybody queue in order of arrival?

 

[6Gman]

And how would you manage boarding two or three trains at once from each ramp? This happens all the time, it's not an exception.

Indeed.

Would be fascinating to see the chaos at the ramp to 16-18 if you had a 10 car Voyager loading on 18, a 12 car Desiro loading on 17 ... and then a Pendolino arrives on 16.

Good luck keeping people in their appropriate pens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair 16-18 don't really need consideration because they are being replaced with part of the HS2 station at some point. They are not getting barriers for that reason.

Talking of 16-18, it looks like with the HS2 work they've stopped leaving the gate to the street open...bet that's fun! Last time that was left closed was for security reasons during the Olympics, and it was chaos at commuter time with the narrow ramp.

 

[Clip]

If they do all of that, and still take over half an hour to board all of that, then there is a real problem.

Not really. 30 mins seems about the right sort of timescale to do this sort of thing.

 

[The Ham]

You haven't explained why somebody else should get a worse service? Why not just let everybody queue in order of arrival?

Although not justifying the whole thing there could be times when you'd want to be able to give certain people an advantage when getting then into a train.

For instance those who need assistance (that's not too say that you couldn't help them under another method).

Personally I like priority boarding when it comes to aircraft as I want to spend as little time on the plane as possible and so I'm quite happy sat waiting for everyone else and then board near the end. The problem with that in the trains is that not everyone has a booked seat.

If you could ensure that lots of booked seats are occupied before you let those without a reservation on then it would make it easier to find a free seat. As such I would suggest that you could only be in the priority boarding line with a seat reservation.

I'm not sure that such a ramp queuing system would work though, as if you have a train with circa 500 people come in to a platform then loosing a significant width of the ramp for passengers waiting may not be an overly good idea. Especially given that you'd be looking at about 2m in width for two lanes.

You may be better off holding your priority boarding passengers elsewhere (maybe with a free drink) and then bringing them down the exit side.

You could then do the same from the first class lounge for your first class passengers, probably trying to time it so that both groups are on the ramp at a similar time.

You could then open up the main gates to everyone else, but have a priority/first check in at the top of the ramps to allow those along later to use the up ramp to join the service whilst the bulk of the passengers join the service.

As it gets closer to the departure time, then close the priority/first check in and just let everyone down (as there's likely to be less congestion anyway).

 

[Sheepy1209]

Good luck keeping people in their appropriate pens.

It works at Blackpool North, what's the problem?

Irony intended.....


Ok, it's harder to do than I thought, but doesn't change the point that conflict between opposing flows is a problem.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if the somewhat extended servicing times at Euston are in fact due to the electronic seat reservation system. AIUI the TM collects this information on their tablet before joining the train and then plugs the tablet into the TMS to upload the reservations. Having seen what happens when turnrounds are minimised during disruption it is obvious that this upload is not at all quick: indeed sometimes the process is simply omitted and the train runs without any reservations at all. Could it be that doing something to improve this part of the turnround process might produce the desired result of trains being ready for boarding rather sooner than is the present norm? Say by taking responsibility for it away from the TM altogether and have station based staff commence the process as soon as incoming trains arrive rather then waiting for the TM booked to work the departure to reach their on-board office. No need for pointless snobbery based segregation of passengers at Euston (but nowhere else).

That's an interesting point. I can't speak for Euston but when a Meridian is on a short turnaround at St Pancras they often board before the reservations have uploaded and chaos then ensues as they usually upload just as everyone has got sat down. These things are 20-year old technology and I gather VTEC is fitting something similar (but hopefully better) to their sets using wireless technology so they don't have to strip everything out to install wiring, so an upgrade of 390s and 221s ought to be possible.

Ok, it's harder to do than I thought, but doesn't change the point that conflict between opposing flows is a problem.

Install a fence along the length of the ramp to divide it into a wider area for queueing and a narrower walkway for people leaving the train and to allow staff access etc. Might need a one-way gate at the top of the walkway.

 

[AlterEgo]

None of this addresses the basic reality that turnaround times at Euston are not constrained by the time it takes people to board the train.

They are constrained by the time it takes to ready the train, clean it, and to an extent, staff booking-on times. There is also a phobia about releasing platform numbers at Euston.

So, if you want to make boarding at Euston nicer, and more efficient, you need to sort those issues first.

Priority boarding on aircraft does not make the process more efficient. What it is there for is to ensure the airline's most valued customers have space to stow their hand luggage before all the bins are full, and thus avoid a gate-check. It's also an ego thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. 30 mins seems about the right sort of timescale to do this sort of thing.

Agreed, and it also serves as layover; if you come in 25 minutes late you can lop some of it out and get back out much closer to time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although not justifying the whole thing there could be times when you'd want to be able to give certain people an advantage when getting then into a train.

For instance those who need assistance (that's not too say that you couldn't help them under another method).

On VT assistance passengers will have a seat reservation (and if they don't or they aren't displaying, the table for two by the buffet is closely guarded as a staff social area in case it is needed for assistance passengers...umm! ).

On LNR/WMT there are priority seats.

So the easiest thing to do in most cases is probably to let the scrum happen then board assistance passengers last.

 

[skyhigh]

This is a good point, and I'll look at some of the ramp plans I've designed, to see if an exit path could be added.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's the point in all this? Is it simply a thought exercise, a uni project, or are you planning to try and sell this idea to Virgin?

Also, none of the concessions you've made address one of the major flaws in my opinion - that people with a cheapo first advance get better service than someone who's just spent a load on a standard walk-up anytime single for a long distance journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

people with a cheapo first advance get better service than someone who's just spent a load on a standard walk-up anytime single for a long distance journey.

I don't see what the flaw is in people with First Class tickets getting a better service than people with Standard Class ones. Could you elaborate?

 

[skyhigh]

I don't see what the flaw is in people with First Class tickets getting a better service than people with Standard Class ones. Could you elaborate?

I mean that if you've paid a lot for the ticket and didn't have a seat reservation, you wouldn't be best pleased to join the back of the queue - especially as these people can be of most value to the TOC you wouldn't want to annoy them. Obviously once you're on the train the service in first class is better so sorry about that ambiguity.

 

[AlterEgo]

I mean that if you've paid a lot for the ticket and didn't have a seat reservation, you wouldn't be best pleased to join the back of the queue - especially as these people can be of most value to the TOC you wouldn't want to annoy them. Obviously once you're on the train the service in first class is better so sorry about that ambiguity.

Ah right, well yes, I agree.

Although I don't support the idea of a priority lane at Euston it would probably work along the same lines as airline ones - in many cases, full-fare economy class tickets on aircraft attract priority boarding.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't see what the flaw is in people with First Class tickets getting a better service than people with Standard Class ones. Could you elaborate?

It goes against my egalitarian principles - at least until I can afford first class on a regular basis/come the revolution whichever occurs first

Just announce the platforms a bit earlier and queue people on the ramps. We don't need any fancy "out of may way scum i am considerably more important than yow" priority boarding arrangements.

 

[Clip]

It goes against my egalitarian principles - at least until I can afford first class on a regular basis/come the revolution whichever occurs first

Just announce the platforms a bit earlier and queue people on the ramps. We don't need any fancy "out of may way scum i am considerably more important than yow" priority boarding arrangements.

apparently all those people have now gone off to the airlines where they get rewarded for being more important than you

 

[mmh]

This strikes me as a way of making money out of the unsatisfactory boarding arrangements very much as the low-cost airlines do. As mentioned the turnaround time is necessary to recover delays and also for some on-train tidying and to re-stock the shop etc.

The question I've never seen an answer to is why the boarding is so late - this is the root cause of the problem and it's usually better to treat the cause not the symptoms. If it's genuinely that they board people immediately after they've finished going down the train picking up rubbish then it is understandable (although EMT go down with a plastic bag before the train even arrives, as airlines do, which seems to work well). But shop replenishment can be done while passengers are boarding. And if the reason is that they don't want to pay for extra staff hours to have them on board earlier than they consider necessary, then needing staff on the barriers earlier than otherwise just creates the same problem.

VTWC trains generally have 30+ minute turnarounds at Euston. It doesn't take 30 minutes to clean a train - as with EMT, they also have travelling cleaners who go up and down collecting rubbish during journeys. They don't need the time it would take to put out paper tickets - I could understand wanting a train to be empty while you do that.

Having priority lanes or boarding at any station would be nonsense, particularly at Euston where you don't want conflicting flows of people in a cramped area. You wouldn't want to announce platforms before or as a train arrives as is done at "commuter" London terminals (e.g. London Bridge) as ideally you want the arriving passengers away first, but once they are there's no reason not to announce it. Keep the doors locked if you really must - although more than likely by the time the first passengers arrive you'll have been able to do a final rubbish collection.

What genuinely needs to happen while the departure boards are telling people "Being Prepared" other than collecting rubbish? Wiping first class tables and putting out new cups and doilies and...?

Instead of adding more faff and rules to boarding at Euston I'd try to remove as much of it as possible. No ticket barriers, the station layout doesn't lend itself to them and they slow people down. Admit there's no problem relying on on-board checks on services which have between 30 minutes and 2 hours between stations to do them. No need to worry if the whole train isn't done before Watford Junction or Milton Keynes, they're barriered.

 

[mmh]

This is a good point, and I'll look at some of the ramp plans I've designed, to see if an exit path could be added.



Why does the scrum exist -> Trains are announced late -> Why are they announced late -> Too much time cleaning / restocking -> Why is too much time spent cleaning and restocking -> Because we're not being efficient -> How could cleaning and catering efficiency be improved?

That's an assumption which doesn't match my experience. On the odd occaision where I've boarded before the platform's been announced the trains are hardly a hive of cleaning and preparing activity, it's already been done. Once I boarded a Voyager and walked and asked the staff (sat down, not waving feather dusters around) "is this the Holyhead train?". Their demeanour was very much that they wanted to tell me "no, get off and come back in ten minutes" but couldn't.

-Condense the catering into much smaller trolleys (similar to aircrafts) so it can be quickly loaded.

It already does come on trolleys and in boxes.

-Have a cleaner on the train at all times, so the train can be cleaned throughout its journey.

Generally they do.

-Reduce the catering offering to a set range of pre made sandwich boxes in Standard (See KLM catering in SH economy for my reference)

The "catering offering" in standard already is a set range of pre made sandwiches and snacks

-Store the none perishable niche products (headphones etc) in bulk onboard, rather than at EUS.

Headphones? The on-board music stuff hasn't been used in years. (When it was specified it was already an idea whose time had passed, back then anyone who cared would have an MP3 player and it wouldn't be long before everyone had a phone that could play music)

-Earn status for access to the first class lounges. With tier2 you will be able to enter for a fee, and with tier3 you will be able to enter for free (with a ticket on a VT service)
-Access to RAILPRIORITY for Tier3 passengers
-Use miles to get a free journey, or upgrade to first class
-Use miles to purchase items from the onboard shop

Nobody really cares about the lack of airline style snobbery cards on the railways, people aren't arriving hours in advance like at airports, or making connections with hours of wait, so lounges are mainly an irrelevance. The only railway one I've been in is the one at Euston, for about ten minutes. It wouldn't make me want to arrive at Euston any earlier!

 

[DarloRich]

apparently all those people have now gone off to the airlines where they get rewarded for being more important than you

The railway cant compete with the attraction of a specially coloured coded plastic card that lets you stand in a special queue and be treated with slightly more obsequiousness dependent on the colour of that card. I don't blame them!

 

[Clip]

The railway cant compete with the attraction of a specially coloured coded plastic card that lets you stand in a special queue and be treated with slightly more obsequiousness dependent on the colour of that card. I don't blame them!

But but but the points

 

[DenmarkRail]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's the point in all this? Is it simply a thought exercise, a uni project, or are you planning to try and sell this idea to Virgin?

Also, none of the concessions you've made address one of the major flaws in my opinion - that people with a cheapo first advance get better service than someone who's just spent a load on a standard walk-up anytime single for a long distance journey.

This is just one of the many ideas I get, and try to put to people for a general opinion. Obviously the sample I used here hasn't taken well to this idea, however other groups have been more happy with this idea.

 

[Darandio]

This is just one of the many ideas I get, and try to put to people for a general opinion. Obviously the sample I used here hasn't taken well to this idea, however other groups have been more happy with this idea.

Presumably these groups were 'SkyTeam SuperFly First Class Elite' types?

 

[DenmarkRail]

Presumably these groups were 'SkyTeam SuperFly First Class Elite' types?

They were people who said: "I don't get anything for traveling by train" or who " I expect more station benefits on first class tickets" OR " I feel the way boarding at EUS was unsafe"

 

[NSEFAN]

I don't think that the economics of airlines can be so readily applied to the railways. Most people wh

This is just one of the many ideas I get, and try to put to people for a general opinion. Obviously the sample I used here hasn't taken well to this idea, however other groups have been more happy with this idea.

To be fair, a lot of people here are either keen observers of the railway or even staff, so are more aware of the practical limitations than other passengers. Whilst Virgin likes to portray itself as an airline-style operation, it can't escape the practical and economic reality that it is, in fact, a railway company. Unlike the airlines which may compete heavily on core routes, most TOCs have relatively captive markets and have absolutely no problem filling trains, so encouraging loyalty to the brand isn't so much of an issue.

I agree with the sentiment that the Euston scrum is a bad thing. As others have said, a lot of the problems at Euston could be fixed by announcing platforms earlier, perhaps keeping the train locked until it is ready for the next departure. First class already gives a lot of perks compared to standard (free food, bigger seats, free wifi, 1st class lounge at major stations). If you really wanted to give first class passengers first access, you could simply announce trains earlier in the 1st class lounge, although this assumes that the train is ready for boarding and there is actually spare time to make an early annoucement, which seems to be unlikely given the current problems!

 

[takno]

I think all this worrying about people trying to get off the train is missing a further opportunity to belittle and demean casual travellers who have the temerity to travel and standard and use a Nectar card.

You could ensure that the scrum is removed by initially only opening the doors to the first class carriages on arrival, allowing the first class passengers five minutes or so to breathe the sweet sweet air of the rich and entitled before they amble up the ramp at their own pace. The second class passengers can follow later once the marketing team have determined that precisely enough time has passed to teach them the error of their ways. This has the added benefit that the first class carriages will be free for the cleaners to lavish their full attention on them before the early arrival of the outbound travellers.

As an economy measure bin-bags will be left outside the second class carriages and the reservation-less full-fare paying scum will be required to work their way down the carriages picking up the trash and generally apologising to everyone else for just plain not being as good as them.

 

[Leo1961]

I think all this worrying about people trying to get off the train is missing a further opportunity to belittle and demean casual travellers who have the temerity to travel and standard and use a Nectar card.

You could ensure that the scrum is removed by initially only opening the doors to the first class carriages on arrival, allowing the first class passengers five minutes or so to breathe the sweet sweet air of the rich and entitled before they amble up the ramp at their own pace. The second class passengers can follow later once the marketing team have determined that precisely enough time has passed to teach them the error of their ways. This has the added benefit that the first class carriages will be free for the cleaners to lavish their full attention on them before the early arrival of the outbound travellers.

As an economy measure bin-bags will be left outside the second class carriages and the reservation-less full-fare paying scum will be required to work their way down the carriages picking up the trash and generally apologising to everyone else for just plain not being as good as them.

Sounds like a plan

 

[6Gman]

They were people who said: "I don't get anything for traveling by train" or who " I expect more station benefits on first class tickets" OR " I feel the way boarding at EUS was unsafe"

I find the main benefit I get for travelling by train is that they take me from where I am to where I want to be. What more should I want?

 

[6Gman]

They were people who said: "I don't get anything for traveling by train" or who " I expect more station benefits on first class tickets" OR " I feel the way boarding at EUS was unsafe"

I wouldn't go so far as to say "unsafe" but clearly unsatisfactory. But - as others have explained - there are better ways of addressing this problem than by requiring two queues to be formed, with all the staffing needs and potential for arguments.

 

[cactustwirly]

That could be happened with the doors locked, though, with people making their way down in dribs and drabs and queueing by the doors. The issue seems to be that they want to clean with the doors open. Which I'm sure makes their life easier, but they seem to cope at Manc Picc where platform numbers are not suppressed at all.

And literally every terminus outside London, like Nottingham, Bristol, Norwich etc.