Idea only: 'Railpriority' at London Euston

[Sheepy1209]

Keep it simple! Announce the platform earlier, wait by the doors until the train is ready. Or did the Euston management train at Blackpool North?

The only problem I can see with that is conflict between arriving and departing passengers - so look for ways of keeping arrivals separate instead of spreading onto the adjacent platform as they do now. Might be tight on some of the ramps but surely not impossible.

 

[peri]

Good idea but wrong way round. If first class is closest they board last. People with reserved seats don't need to rush as their seat is waiting for them! Everybody else first followed by reserved standard and lastly first class passengers can waddle out of their lounge at the last minute. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[edwin_m]

This strikes me as a way of making money out of the unsatisfactory boarding arrangements very much as the low-cost airlines do. As mentioned the turnaround time is necessary to recover delays and also for some on-train tidying and to re-stock the shop etc.

The question I've never seen an answer to is why the boarding is so late - this is the root cause of the problem and it's usually better to treat the cause not the symptoms. If it's genuinely that they board people immediately after they've finished going down the train picking up rubbish then it is understandable (although EMT go down with a plastic bag before the train even arrives, as airlines do, which seems to work well). But shop replenishment can be done while passengers are boarding. And if the reason is that they don't want to pay for extra staff hours to have them on board earlier than they consider necessary, then needing staff on the barriers earlier than otherwise just creates the same problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Id terminate all trains from the regions at South Eastern Gateway stations such as London Milton Keynes. Travellers could transfer to high capacity commuter trains at these Gateways ending the practise of valuable space being hogged by Low capacity Intercity trains. Would eliminate the need for unnecessary high speed lines at a stroke.

What's "low capacity" about an 11-car Pendolino or, for that matter, 10-car Class 800?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What could work is providing a text/email to those who booked direct with Virgin providing platform details a few minutes earlier.

You mean like they actually do do?

 

[TheDavibob]

And if the reason is that they don't want to pay for extra staff hours to have them on board earlier than they consider necessary, then needing staff on the barriers earlier than otherwise just creates the same problem.

I'm sure it must be this, I can't see any other real reason for it, and of course this suggestion doesn't deal with that. Plenty of other terminal stations happily lock out a train whilst it's being cleaned, with no major grumbles (I was pleasantly surprised on a recent trip to Scarborough that nobody even vaguely attempts to board the terminating train until it's been cleaned up - being used to the system clearly helps). If there were more staff at Euston on hand, I'm sure they could open the platforms a few minutes earlier.

To be honest, LNR's counter-method of having open platforms but not releasing the doors until a couple of minutes before departure isn't a whole lot better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, LNR's counter-method of having open platforms but not releasing the doors until a couple of minutes before departure isn't a whole lot better.

This is because of tight staff diagramming and a rule (that didn't used to exist) that trains aren't to be left unlocked without at least one member of the traincrew present. It's annoying, but it's *much* better than the VT Euston scrum as people make their way down in dribs and drabs and queue by the doors along the full length of the train so they aren't all clustered at the back.

Indeed, switching VT to that method of operation would be a huge, easy, overnight improvement. Oddly enough, they manage at Manchester Picc and other places to do it this way (lock up for cleaning, or even clean with passengers already boarded). Platforms are never suppressed at Manc Picc.

 

[theironroad]

EMT at STP aren't great at advanced boarding either, and even with RTT you are actually held back on the course and prevented from going on the platform

 

[Bletchleyite]

EMT at STP aren't great at advanced boarding either, and even with RTT you are actually held back on the course and prevented from going on the platform

It does seem to be a London practice (plus a number of Scottish termini). It doesn't happen at other English termini other than Liverpool Lime St which has a decent queueing area so avoids the scrum.

Indeed, turning the platform ramps into queueing areas and showing the platforms with the gates closed would also work to avoid the scrum.

 

[AM9]

Frankly, given the numbers of people involved, if it takes more than a sentence to explain, it's too complicated.

Not that giving it thought is a bad thing. Personally, I'd favour two queues: passengers with seat reservations for this service, and everybody else.

I was surprised at that omission. Still the whole suggestion is selectively elitist. How about this sequence:

disabled and elderly passengers,
those with young children,
those with large luggage items,
those with seat reservations,
then the rest.

That would be much more in the spirit of a fairer society.* In practice, anyone who thinks that they are entitled to a higher priority boarding can get that by reserving their seat.

* Having been a rail commuter years ago, I found some of them to be among the most self-centred and self-entitled members of the travelling public. More recent journeys haven't changed that feeling.

 

[DarloRich]

The question I've never seen an answer to is why the boarding is so late - this is the root cause of the problem and it's usually better to treat the cause not the symptoms. If it's genuinely that they board people immediately after they've finished going down the train picking up rubbish then it is understandable (although EMT go down with a plastic bag before the train even arrives, as airlines do, which seems to work well). But shop replenishment can be done while passengers are boarding. And if the reason is that they don't want to pay for extra staff hours to have them on board earlier than they consider necessary, then needing staff on the barriers earlier than otherwise just creates the same problem.

I suspect it is because of set changes due to faults/delays on incoming services

Indeed, turning the platform ramps into queueing areas and showing the platforms with the gates closed would also work to avoid the scrum.

I wonder if there is a loading issue with the ramps - it seems sensible to queue people on the ramps

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if there is a loading issue with the ramps - it seems sensible to queue people on the ramps

That is a possibility.

FWIW I'm reminded of Inverness before the automatic barriers were installed - people used to queue for their train at the platform entrance - actual proper single-file queues snaking around the concourse. The automatic barriers (which were really not necessary, as for 2 and 3-car DMUs the guard could easily handle a barrier check if needs be) removed that piece of olde-worlde civility in favour of a mini Euston scrum.

 

[theironroad]

United airlines run a 5+ groups boarding system at many of their gates and only use front door boarding.

Global service members, military personnel in uniform get pre boarding along with wheelchair users followed by families with small children and people who may need more time to board such as using a mobility walker etc.

Then the 5 group boarding starts, group 1 being first/business, group 2 is economy plus which are slightly better leg room seats towards the front but also covers anyone with any tier status in the frequency flyer program or have a United credit card, 3&4 are general boarding and the last group is basic economy which doesn't allow carry on bags, just a small personal item like a handbag.

It's a little perverse on a plane that only uses front door loading that the people sitting at the front get to board first as it clogs up the aisles for people trying to get to the back, though as 1&2 are usually more regular flyers they get their stuff stowed and sat down quite efficiently.

The whole thing isn't about getting a plane loaded the most efficiently but rewarding different price points and loyalty.

I actually love the fact Ryanair normally do front and rear door boarding, helped by the fact they don't use air bridges as makes boarding easier.

 

[Steve Harris]

Kaizen... You can always say what’s the point in efficiency savings, but there is no lie in saying that extra efficiency means better results for passengers and the customers.

Things can always be made better

I agree, to a point.

You can only cut so much meat from a bone before there is no more meat to cut.
In other words, there will always be a cut off point were you cant improve things anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole thing isn't about getting a plane loaded the most efficiently but rewarding different price points and loyalty.

I actually love the fact Ryanair normally do front and rear door boarding, helped by the fact they don't use air bridges as makes boarding easier.

easyJet actually did a lot of testing before they went for allocated seating, and they found that just boarding at random was no less fast than any other method. They do offer pre-boarding for those requiring assistance (to make it easier) and for easyJet Plus/premium seats (mainly to ensure luggage space for exit row seats but also for commercial reasons) but both of those actually slow it down (because they cause crowds at the front).

The only one likely to speed it up is window then middle then aisle, but that would never work as people travelling together won't/can't split up, particularly not with children.

 

[jon0844]

Yep, I do that too

You can tell who has RTT

Especially when you see people going to a platform you know that won't be the platform/train, as they were relying on booked information and not actual information!

 

[jon0844]

This is because of tight staff diagramming and a rule (that didn't used to exist) that trains aren't to be left unlocked without at least one member of the traincrew present. It's annoying, but it's *much* better than the VT Euston scrum as people make their way down in dribs and drabs and queue by the doors along the full length of the train so they aren't all clustered at the back.

Indeed, switching VT to that method of operation would be a huge, easy, overnight improvement. Oddly enough, they manage at Manchester Picc and other places to do it this way (lock up for cleaning, or even clean with passengers already boarded). Platforms are never suppressed at Manc Picc.

With no risk of over carrying as the train isn't going anywhere empty it doesn't seem a bad idea to lock the train - even without having to check everyone alighted. Staff on the train could let someone off if they dawdled or decided to use the toilet upon the train arriving. You would have obviously given a minute or two to allow people a chance to get off with the entire contents of their home that travelled with them.

Then you could let people come slowly to the platform and wait in their respective areas/zones (the platform being clearly marked so they all get to find their coach and don't need to stress) until the doors are unlocked.

I guess the issue is how the train can manage allowing staff on to do their duties. If they turn up late, would all doors need to be released to let them on, for example.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect it is because of set changes due to faults/delays on incoming services

That may be so sometimes, but it can't explain why the majority of turnarounds couldn't be boarded earlier.

I wonder if there is a loading issue with the ramps - it seems sensible to queue people on the ramps

I would have thought if there was a loading issue there would be some kind of mitigation in place, such as fencing off most of the ramp to ensure it can't all be loaded at once. Otherwise the risk of overcrowding would be too great, as there are circumstances where the "scrum" could be blocked and people stack up on the ramp anyway. Perhaps be something to do with fire evacuation routes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Especially when you see people going to a platform you know that won't be the platform/train, as they were relying on booked information and not actual information!

Yep, you do have to know how to use RTT and what the implications of the information on it are.

 

[DenmarkRail]

What do people think about the loyalty card idea I mentioned in the first post?

 

[AM9]

What do people think about the loyalty card idea I mentioned in the first post?

Largely irrelevant on a Public Transport system.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Largely irrelevant on a Public Transport system.

It would only apply to Virgin Trains, therefore it would be equivalent to a flight between LHR and EDI on many occasions... There are no occasions where Virgin trains services are used as a frequent stopping service, therefore earning miles and XP would require a 'proper' journey, rather than a 10 minute hop on, hop off. The only place I could think of this happening is between Birmingham INTL and New Street.

 

[6Gman]

Absolutely terrible idea. Just put the platforms on the displays earlier and let people queue by the doors.

If you think it'd work with LNR you're very much mistaken and you don't understand their boarding processes.

Seconded. The palaver at Euston is a disgrace.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would only apply to Virgin Trains, therefore it would be equivalent to a flight between LHR and EDI on many occasions... There are no occasions where Virgin trains services are used as a frequent stopping service

You been to the North West lately?

 

[6Gman]

Kaizen... You can always say what’s the point in efficiency savings, but there is no lie in saying that extra efficiency means better results for passengers and the customers.

Things can always be made better

You do realise that if you "improve" the service by reducing turnround times you increase the chance of a service missing its "slot" on the WCML which then disrupts not only that service but also those around it, and even some coming the other way?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do realise that if you "improve" the service by reducing turnround times you increase the chance of a service missing its "slot" on the WCML which then disrupts not only that service but also those around it, and even some coming the other way?

Precisely. A reasonable layover in fact increases efficiency in this case by ensuring things run (mostly) to time. It's not how long "ground operations" take, it's padding.

 

[6Gman]

Here is a plan that I have devised to solve the current boarding issues at Euston. Currently only works with Virgin services, but I am sure it could be adapted for LNWR. Here is the idea.

GENERAL IDEA
Each ramp to the platform will be split into 2, one side will be General boarding, the other will be 'RAILPRIORITY'. At the end of each ramp there will be a gate agent, who will check that your eligble for RAILPRIORITY and then scan your ticket. After the gate agent has boarded the RAILPRIORITY people, then they will open general boarding. Platforms will be announced sooner than currently, but boarding times will remain unchanged for general boarding, but sooner for RAILPRIORITY.

What happens when passengers arriving need to use the ramp? Are they expected to fight their way through the waiting passengers?

 

[6Gman]

Id terminate all trains from the regions at South Eastern Gateway stations such as London Milton Keynes. Travellers could transfer to high capacity commuter trains at these Gateways ending the practise of valuable space being hogged by Low capacity Intercity trains. Would eliminate the need for unnecessary high speed lines at a stroke.

Perhaps everyone should just stay at home ...

Problem solved.

 

[Domh245]

Do remember that Kaizen is continuous improvement, not continuous change. Similarly looking in the lean toolbox, and as other people have noted, you need to do a root cause analysis. Why is it that the Euston Scrum exists (because trains are announced late) - Why are trains announced late (because ...) and so on.

 

[6Gman]

It would only apply to Virgin Trains, therefore it would be equivalent to a flight between LHR and EDI on many occasions... There are no occasions where Virgin trains services are used as a frequent stopping service, therefore earning miles and XP would require a 'proper' journey, rather than a 10 minute hop on, hop off. The only place I could think of this happening is between Birmingham INTL and New Street.

Or Manchester - Stockport, or Stockport - Wilmslow, or Liverpool - Runcorn, or Wigan - Warrington, or International - Coventry, or ...

Extend it to 20 minutes and there are plenty more.