Hypothetical Situation

[CamS]

If one was to buy an open return ticket, and upon use of the return journey ticket managed to avoid getting a stamp/mark from the inspector on the train, and were to use it again within its validity multiple times, how does that stand in the law, and have there been examples of penalties/prosecutions along these lines? As it essentially shows an intention to not pay a fare.

It seems if the inspector is a little presumptuous by a lack of will to show the ticket that this could be repeated by many. (I don't wish to try it, a look through my thread history will show a lucky escape from a previous misjudgement which I don't want to risk again, the idea came from the experiences of others I know.)

 

[Flamingo]

Once the journey has been completed, the ticket is no longer valid. Just because the ticket was not stamped does not alter this.

 

[najaB]

...and have there been examples of penalties/prosecutions along these lines? As it essentially shows an intention to not pay a fare.

I'm in no way suggesting that anybody does this, but it would be interesting to see how the TOC could/could not prove this. CCTV?

 

[Tibbs]

I'm in no way suggesting that anybody does this, but it would be interesting to see how the TOC could/could not prove this. CCTV?

I'd imagine it would be almost impossible, since it's possible to buy a ticket with no paper trail at all.

The TOC would have to demonstrate beyone reasonable doubt that the passenger travelled twice on the same ticket, and without a stamp, a note of the ticket number or a gate swipe, I'm not sure how that would be possible.

 

[EM2]

Related, but different, if you are using said ticket legitimately for one journey but with multiple breaks, would it be looked at suspiciously if it is marked a number of times?

 

[Flamingo]

It's possible to swipe a ticket in an Avantex and get the information off the strip as to when it passed through a gate last. I have done this, especially when somebody is blatently sorting through a handful of "returns" looking for the shortest date one.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . how does that stand in the law, and have there been examples of penalties/prosecutions along these lines? As it essentially shows an intention to not pay a fare.

Yes.
There is a raft of successful prosecutions following exactly the fraudulent re-use of a ticket in the way you describe.
The trick has been tried since the railways began, and is well known to investigators; there is nothing 'hypothetical' about it.

Once the journey has been completed, the ticket is no longer valid. Just because the ticket was not stamped does not alter this.

Exactly!

. . . . . it would be interesting to see how the TOC could/could not prove this. CCTV?

Using witness statements from personnel who observed the passenger either directly, or indirectly, or using other intelligence.
Many dishonest passengers are quite adept at incriminating themselves without much effort from rail personnel.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Assuming there were good ticket checks on the outbound service then the passenger would have to buy a single ticket anyway and this would cost almost as much as the return would in many cases.

 

[Deerfold]

Assuming there were good ticket checks on the outbound service then the passenger would have to buy a single ticket anyway and this would cost almost as much as the return would in many cases.

That really does depend where and when they were travelling. In many cases a return (especially if not a day return) is a lot more than a single.

And of course they could simply have two Anytime return tickets - one in each direction.

 

[cuccir]

About 5 years ago an acquaintance (I won't stretch to friend!) of mine described doing exactly this kind of the thing. They travelled (I don't know if they still do this) Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester once or twice most weeks. They'd purchase and use a return ticket, but aim not to get the return half stamped (there were no barriers on the journey). As Advances on this route were/are cheap and quite commonly available the day before travel, they would then buy an Advance for the next outward journey, and re-use the return that they held. They reckoned they could get 3 or 4 uses out of most return portions.

I never formally raised this info although I did mention it in conversation to a guard I happened to know who worked for TPE when I saw him a few weeks later!

 

[user15681]

Related, but different, if you are using said ticket legitimately for one journey but with multiple breaks, would it be looked at suspiciously if it is marked a number of times?

I've always wondered this, and the likely outcome has put me off making multiple breaks.

 

[tony6499]

Seen many a time a passenger get a fistful of return tickets out and look for the one with the soonest expiry date for the journey, i.e London to Worthing return half of savers.

A quick question of why they keep buying return tickets and not using the return half soon brings up the question of fare evasion and using a ticket twice. It's usually brought to a conclusion by asking for all the tickets, stamping the one with the date of the latest one bought and keeping the rest, if the passenger refuses to give the tickets up then they are reminded of the bylaws and most then do without further question.

 

[Flamingo]

It's more fun to swipe it, say "I'm sorry that's been used" and rip it in half before handing it back, and holding your hand out for the next one...

(You don't actually have to have the Avantex set up to scan them, just a suitable facial expression!)

 

[tony6499]

It's more fun to swipe it, say "I'm sorry that's been used" and rip it in half before handing it back, and holding your hand out for the next one...

(You don't actually have to have the Avantex set up to scan them, just a suitable facial expression!)

'I'm going to report you for that' but funny enough they never did, wonder why ?

 

[Flamingo]

No, nobody has ever challenged me! I wonder why?

 

[Geronimo]

Seen many a time a passenger get a fistful of return tickets out and look for the one with the soonest expiry date for the journey, i.e London to Worthing return half of savers.

A quick question of why they keep buying return tickets and not using the return half soon brings up the question of fare evasion and using a ticket twice. It's usually brought to a conclusion by asking for all the tickets, stamping the one with the date of the latest one bought and keeping the rest, if the passenger refuses to give the tickets up then they are reminded of the bylaws and most then do without further question.

Do these get reported and get the full prosecution treatment, or do they just get the chance to refine their act for the future?

 

[185]

I sent one for prosecution some years ago. £440 :P

 

[tony6499]

Do these get reported and get the full prosecution treatment, or do they just get the chance to refine their act for the future?

Take the tickets and let them know it is an offence, first time warning if you like

 

[island]

Do these get reported and get the full prosecution treatment, or do they just get the chance to refine their act for the future?

I am given to understand that many guards are not trained on reporting people for prosecution, and only have the option to try and convince the passenger to buy a new ticket (if indeed he did not manage to find a valid one in his pile) or to phone BTP to meet the train, which request will be ignored.

 

[34D]

Seen many a time a passenger get a fistful of return tickets out and look for the one with the soonest expiry date for the journey, i.e London to Worthing return half of savers.

A quick question of why they keep buying return tickets and not using the return half soon brings up the question of fare evasion and using a ticket twice. It's usually brought to a conclusion by asking for all the tickets, stamping the one with the date of the latest one bought and keeping the rest, if the passenger refuses to give the tickets up then they are reminded of the bylaws and most then do without further question.

Hang on, this seems a little unfair. I often bulk buy tickets, so sometimes legitimately have several unused tickets on me

 

[Flamingo]

Hang on, this seems a little unfair. I often bulk buy tickets, so sometimes legitimately have several unused tickets on me

Presumably for dates in the future.

 

[tony6499]

Hang on, this seems a little unfair. I often bulk buy tickets, so sometimes legitimately have several unused tickets on me

They wouldn't be return halves of tickets 20+ days old would they ?

 

[GadgetMan]

Hang on, this seems a little unfair. I often bulk buy tickets, so sometimes legitimately have several unused tickets on me

And do you often make the 'Out' journey numerous times without making any 'Return' journeys?

 

[34D]

They wouldn't be return halves of tickets 20+ days old would they ?

At one point, I did indeed have several RTN portions on me, mainly because I sometimes had a lift with a colleague

 

[martinsh]

And do you often make the 'Out' journey numerous times without making any 'Return' journeys?

Perhaps by buying returns when you only really need to go one way - and a return is 5/10 p more than a single ?

Also buying a Return allows me to get Plus Bus tickets for 2 different days

PS just sorted out my wallet, and I now have 5 unused return halvers - from a total of arounf 20 ticvkets originally

 

[TonyR]

It's more fun to swipe it, say "I'm sorry that's been used" and rip it in half before handing it back, and holding your hand out for the next one...

(You don't actually have to have the Avantex set up to scan them, just a suitable facial expression!)

But what if it is unused? You would have just torn up a valid ticket without even checking it first. Not all of us with a ticket wallet stuffed with return tickets is using this scam.

 

[TonyR]

Presumably for dates in the future.

No. I have a ticket wallet full of used (and some out of date) returns plus my latest valid return. I guess I could litter the ticket on the concourse or go and find an elusive rubbish bin when the gate returns it to me but I find it easier to put it back in the wallet and also its useful for making my expense claims so instead I put it back in the wallet and have an occasional clear out when I do my expenses.

 

[najaB]

....go and find an elusive rubbish bin when the gate returns it to me

Your gates give the ticket back to you at the destination station? The ones up here don't - which is annoying when you've got a ticket that you want to keep.

 

[Flamingo]

But what if it is unused? You would have just torn up a valid ticket without even checking it first. Not all of us with a ticket wallet stuffed with return tickets is using this scam.

One gets to know the scammers. Trust me, I've never got it wrong yet!

 

[TonyR]

One gets to know the scammers. Trust me, I've never got it wrong yet!

How do you know? You've not scanned their ticket and you've torn it up. Its a very worrying statement reminiscent of the absolute certainties of guilt that have led to some of the greatest miscarriages of justice. That it is professed by a railway employee seemingly tasked with checking tickets is deeply worrying.